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Ikki defeating four perfectly identical, but stronger, copies of himself

Guess we sort of reached a conclusion then, at least in regards to the general outline? OP has yet to respond though. And the fine details need to be settled.
 
Yeah I was asleep, changing the wording seems like a nice compromise.
 
These are the quotes for the multipliers.

48x:


If he wanted to close the gap anyway, he couldn't be normal any longer. He had no choice but to become a Shura. Ikki didn't avert his eyes from that truth. Focusing on this realization, he had discovered a way. To surpass talent, he could no longer leave any strength unused.

One minute was enough. It was fine to ignore what happened afterward, but for one minute he'd become strong enough to beat anyone.

That was the answer Ikki Kurogane found, so that his greatest weakness can defeat another's greatest strength. Intentionally using all of his vigor and stamina after breaking through his limits, it was a Noble Art that brought out all of his meager power for little more than one minute and multiplies that power several dozen times.
500x:


Losing strength, Ikki's body leaned languidly on her. Even though he was breathing… it was terribly weak. She could tell he was in a dangerous condition with a glance.

And furthermore Stella noticed it. Ikki's entire body, it was bleeding underneath his clothes. The body he had strengthened many hundred-fold. It was already beyond the range that a human body could withstand.
 
Guess I gotta read the rest of this now that I'm awake and not in school

Why did we pick 5 for "many" though
 
Here's the reason on 5 for "many"

So to decide on how much exactly "several dozens" and "many hundred" were I, not only asked some people including admins to give me their opinion, but also checked the definitions of "several" and "many". And from the results i got from the definitions and people i asked the best assumption would be 4 or 5 (for several) and for "many" the definitions said "unknown but more than several" and it even gave an example of "in a total of 10, many would be at the very least 5, but it could mean 6, 7, 8 or 9". So I will leave it to you which of these assumptions would be best to use in each case.
Here's the thread where this was all decided btw.
 
Muchacho mrm said:
Several is more than 2.
Click to expand...
Yeah, again there is not really such a big problem. We currently assume 4, even if we assume 3 nothing will really change in a debate scenario, as i said, it's like 1/4th less and that will just be adding more work on the rakudai profiles.
 
That is a large change, especially when you throw the several hundred multiplier on top of that.

And I am relatively certain "many" does not stand for "more than several" by default at all.
 
Wait, doesn't the text plain say that they are nowhere near as skilled, being unable to understand the subdle parts of fighting?

"Mind, technique, and body—things can't exist without the others, but your forgery was missing two of them… how could I lose against that!"

Sara could not hide her agitation at Ikki's confident smile, because his conclusion was right on the mark. She had no ability to imagine the subtleties of combat, only what she could see in the physical model she chose and the idea of victory. The Blazers she imagined and materialized with Purple Caricature could break through an opponent's defenses by sheer power, but their tactics were simple and straightforward. If an opponent exposed an opening as Ikki had done, they would attack it. They must.
 
Well yes and no, they can perform all of his skill feats, but it seems to make a difference between being able to perfrom Ittou Shura which is an almost purely skill based ability and actually knowing what are the best decisions in a fight.

@Alex

The hundred multiplier is not "on top" of that. It's on the base. Whether it's 36 or 48, it doesn't affect the hundred multiplier.

And many is by literally every definition i got "more than several". And in a set of 10, many would mean anywhere from 5 to 9. So we just took the lowest possibility.
 
They can only perform all of his skill feats since they have the physical capabilities to do so, they don't have the knowledge, or as the novel calls it, "mind and technique" to perform Ikki's skill feats.

Also, Ittou Shura doesn't sound like a "skill based ability", it sounds like a simple powerup.
 
It is a skill based ability doe. Just gonna quote his profile.

Doubling Physical Power: Ikki's ability as a Blazer. He is able to double his physical abilities, however, this is a power that has been considered useless as other Blazers are able to enhance their physical abilities up to five to six times using their natural magical power as such he gained the title of Worst Knight. Though Ikki was able to use his superhuman body control and willpower in order to ignore his survival instincts, which resulted in his own Noble Arts, Ittou Shura and later Ittou Rasetsu. *Ittou Shura is the Noble Art, in which Ikki is able to amass all his bodies vigor and stamina while ignoring the survival instincts that prevent humans from using their full strength, then multiplies this several dozen times granting him tremendous power, which can be maintained for just one minute and as such, it is referred to as his strongest minute.
 
So the clones can amass all their bodies' vigor and stamina while ignoring survival instincts.

You using this to say that they totally have the same amount of skill, despite being stated to not have the same mind or technique, AND despite them getting beaten by Ikki really just reads like wanking this into being a skill feat.

At best it seems like PIS for them to use this "skill based ability" (even though nothing that you quoted shows me that it's skill based, it just seems to be a technique he developed).
 
If it isn't justified, it's wank, PIS, and unreliable.

If it is, it's literally a case of beating someone stronger than you, which has happened vast amounts of times in fiction.
 
@Agnaa

Yes, but doing all of that requires skill. It is one of his most notable skill feats in verse. The reason people with FAR more power can't outdo it's amp. It's not just a "yeah imma just accumulate my body vigor, ignore my survival instincts, shut down all unneeded parts of my body like, the ability to see colors and gain this amp, easy enough". Without that level of skill you can't do that, it was a major plot point for why Stella was unable to surpass his amps.

And "wank", you really love jumping to conlusions. Im not the only knowledgeable member to point out that "the clones had a forced mentality and couldn't act out of it". Rat even mentioned that "they have the same theoretical skill but not the same effective skill". So they have the same skill, most of it just gets thrown outta the window due to their forced mentality.
 
Yeah, I've read the thread and now that I understand what the feat actually entails, I'm gonna call this "feat" bullshit. No offense to Earl, but the logic you're using here is simply broken. Even though this is fiction, we still have to abide by certain standards. One of them being the standard of outliers.

You expect me to believe, that Ikki, with no power ups, asspulls, or even plot convenience, was able to beat 4 clones of him, perfect in every way besides mindset, whom were also amped up to 40 over times?

Yeah, no. I'm not buying it. By all accounts, this does not make sense. There's not even a way I can argue devil's advocate for this. This is blatant outlier, and in no way a measure of skill.
 
Except he knew exactly what they would do and that they would be unable to deal with him killing them.

Also ikki could have used ittou shura for reaction speed increase. Also reaction speed being higher than combat speed is no news.
 
That doesn't help when they are 48x times faster and stronger, meaning they could gib him with whiffs even if he dodges.

That is headcanon. The text does not even remotely imply anything like this.
 
Yeah so? You being faster, but still going for it doesn't mean i can't attack you. It's like saying if you're faster and aiming head first into a wall, i being slower can't kill you when you're close.

It never does, even though it's usually his first move he uses it to analyze the surroundings. And even then, it just means it solves this problem instead of "it's outlier i tell you". It's not an outlier, he just used his pseudo ittou shura, but the text didn't say that.
 
Yes it does. The clones would've bridged the gap and attacked several times before Ikki could even start to move into his bluff.

That is still headcanon. You cannot say that something happened when the text of the feat itself says that it didn't.
 
Ikki's clones were almost 5x over the accepted value to speed blitz someone from long distance, and they were up close in a stadium.

Ikki would get blitzed no matter how skilled he is.
 
What you're saying Earl is blatant fallacy. You can't just assume Ikki did something without proof. Without the text explicitly telling you what happened, you can't just assume it did.
 
Not really, reaction speed are by nature much higher than movement speeds. The gap is much slower than you think. And even then, he still knows what they'll do, setting up traps by holding his sword in position is a thing.

I love how you're treating "outlier" the same way we use "the positive argument needs proof". Outlier is literally us saying "this can't happen or makes no sense that's why we don't count it". If a very likely situation you can't prove either right of wrong should have been in play it explains the situation. Outlier falls for stuff like "goku was hurt by a gun", no matter how you spin that, it makes no sense, so we don't count that. Though if we say "goku can lower his durability if needed" it stops being an outlier cus "he had just lowered his durability". Outlier is a last resort.
 
Ok so, you're saying that a normal human can react to, say, a silenced pistol shot, or the bullet itself? Because that is the speed difference we are looking at here.

It is an outlier because, by this feat, Ikki is > Ikki in all aspects, which is dumb for reasons I hope I don't need to explain.
 
I love how you use a pistol which has insane acceleration, and is extremely small. But take a car moving very fast, you can still throw a rock at it, if it comes close. It's much faster than you, but doesn't mean it you literally can't do anything to it.

Ikki > Ikki. Except in Reaction speed which is the same, and in skill which we already know is not the same in practice
 
That is not my point. A 48x speed difference is a like a normal jogging speed compared to a bullet and is what Ikki is dealing with. So, again, unless you want to argue that normal humans can easily react to bullets, Ikki gets blitzed

Except not because the clones have 48x his speed
 
Ikki > Ikki is an absolutely dense argument and is exactly why Rakudai is so poorly regarded on this wiki.

This thread's getting nowhere, and the vast majority are in favor of rewording this feat. How should we reword it for the profile?
 
Coz I myself am sick of this thread too

https://******************/project/index.php?title=Rakudai_Kishi_no_Eiyuutan:Volume7_Chapter_10

It starts at Part 12. The fight against his clones is way towards the end and is like 4 sentences or so. It legit just goes like "I know muh skillz better than anyone, so I use muh skillz to out skill muh skillz gg" >.> But pls read it yourself before judging. Like... All of it.
 
If you had it the entire time 99% of the questions asked were oofing pointless coz they are all explained >.>

So either non of u bothered to actually read it or you guys have the worst reading comprehension like... Ever
 
>Vast majority

Pretty sure everyone including me agreed that some rewording that "they didn't have the combat experience" is fine.

>Ikki > Ikki

My gawd, this is why you are regarding it so poorly. No one brought it up except for H13 who keeps missing the point. His argument literally goes like "The clones are 48x faster that's why Ikki > Ikki which is outlier".

@H13

So your problem is the speed. Which as i said is very likely that Ikki used pseudo ittou shura. And have the same reaction speed.
 
I hope you understand that "very likely" isn't acceptable proof. You need written evidence or it isn't even on the table. We do not work on assumptions here, at least not like this.

Acceptable evidence would be if in previous chapters, Ikki stated that he always used amps against faster opponents.
 
RatherClueless said:
If you had it the entire time 99% of the questions asked were oofing pointless coz they are all explained >.>

So either non of u bothered to actually read it or you guys have the worst reading comprehension like... Ever
Click to expand...
I think you're the one with bad reading comprehension if you genuinely support this circular scaling

And no, nothing about this was ever justified to the point that circular scaling would be allowed
 
>Circular scaling

>Only the speed provides a problem

Kek.

@Oven

This applies if it's about treating something as an outlier. Very likely assumptions count in cases like these, they don't count when making additions cus you don't add stuff to his profile with "assumptions" but with facts. That's our rule. In terms of outlier, it applies cus it explains the whole situation.

A "it only makes sense in case of this likely assumption" is better then "ahaha it doesn't make sense". If batman kicking specter in the face could have a likely assumption then it would not have been treated as an outlier.
 
Ok, have fun lying to no one but yourself. Admins disagree with you, so there is 0 way for you to just keep going on with this.
 
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