Ikki defeating four perfectly identical, but stronger, copies of himself

[Firephoenixearl]

Btw on the topic of "it wasn't stated therefore it's an outlier", well:

However, all effort should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only the most extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable.

We don't need specific statements as we want not to have outliers not bunch as much stuff as we can into "outlier", only extreme cases with absolutely no explanation are treated as outliers.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

So...They were incapable of making use of their skill is how Im understanding this...Thus they were just four guys stronger then ikki who would go for any opening? Is this really a good skill feat? I get it they weren't idiotic but they were unable to make use of their skill due to taking any opening to win.

I mean beating four opponents stronger then yourself is good but ikki fights stronger opponents all the time, usually said opponents are stronger then these clones and not forced to go for obvious traps/opening's.

 

[Kaltias]

@Earl

Theoretical skill means nothing in a fight though. Reading a billion of books about swordfighting might give you knowledge of every swordfighting technique ever, but you won't become a good swordsman unless you learn how to use them.

Also if you assume that Ikki used Ittou Shura it'd mean that the clones had no real advantage except being 4 vs 1, so at that point it's not really a feat anyway.

 

[NeoSuperior]

I guess you could say their "footwork" was restricted by their orders, but their technical skills/"technique" with sword arts wasn't? Something like that I'd guess.

 

[RatherClueless]

@Kal it's more like two guys learning the same martial art in the same dojo and gather the same skill, but one of them actually uses it at tournaments and such, while the other one never fought anyone. He still knows how to fight and has the skill. Doesn't mean he'll use it as effectively as the other guy.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Pretty much. So this feat is:

Ikki beat 4 people (imma not call it clones cus i feel like ppl will confuse it's meaning again), with all of his arsenal, more ap, more movement speed but without combat experience.

Still a feat dwarfing most of the site.

 

[Agnaa]

@Earl Skill scales, but it's not the same as combat.

Then the fact that it scales is irrelevant to the thread, as it lends no credence to it being a skill feat, and doesn't need to be brought up any more.

We don't need specific statements as we want not to have outliers not bunch as much stuff as we can into "outlier", only extreme cases with absolutely no explanation are treated as outliers.

I sure hope that's not the intention of the text. I'd like to think it means "Make sure to account for stuff like Mario getting a powerup to defeat the 2-B final boss in whether it's an outlier or not" rather than "Assume they used whatever's in their arsenal that stops it form being an outlier, no matter how little that explanation was hinted at in the text."

I really, really don't like trains of logic that assume characters did things that were never hinted at. I'm fine with possiblys when feats are ambiguous, but not with saying it isn't an outlier because "Well, the text never said he DIDN'T use this ability."

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Agnaa It is still something to keep in mind, cus it means they had all of Ikki's abilities. That is the point

Not "it cannot be an outlier" but "we shouldn't assume it's an outlier if it can very easily be explained without contradictions".

 

[Agnaa]

@Kal it's more like two guys learning the same martial art in the same dojo and gather the same skill, but one of them actually uses it at tournaments and such, while the other one never fought anyone. He still knows how to fight and has the skill. Doesn't mean he'll use it as effectively as the other guy.

Even though it's not relevant to the argument, I really don't like this analogy, because martial arts moves are things that require skill in how they're applied to combat. You don't do a roundhouse kick then get a 50x speed & AP boost.

Of course a martial artist who can kick but doesn't know how to apply it will be less formidable. But that's not really the same thing. Techniques that themselves have to be applied properly in battle are different to just flipping on a switch to become strong but not knowing how to fight.

 

[Agnaa]

@Earl Potentially being able to use other abilities doesn't matter if they never used them and just blindly walked into a trap.

Which means "We do not treat is an outlier", I can reword my comment to appease you though.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok, just pointing out stuff. Im trying to get the point across and not cause missunderstandings.

Yeah sure, i was just pointing out that it's not that "we can't" is that "we shouldn't".

 

[Kaltias]

Except that this is not the case, because the skill of the fakes is based on what Sara knows, not what Ikki knows, and he pretty much says that Sara doesn't get how combat works:

"She had a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of combat itself, and thought that the outcome depended on who was stronger. No. A battle does not simply go to the strongest. It was not a comparison of numbers and specs.

A battle was seizing victory in a single moment."

 

[Chariot190]

Ikki's situation only exists because the world arbitrarily decided to hate him

I have literally never read a word of Rakudai in my life, but that's a tad unfair, seeing as the highest rated manga of all time is literally that as well.

 

[Agnaa]

Ikki beat 4 people (imma not call it clones cus i feel like ppl will confuse it's meaning again), with all of his arsenal, more ap, more movement speed but without combat experience.

1. Having all the arsenal doesn't matter if they didn't use any of it and just walked into a trap, imo.

2. More AP doesn't really matter since he one-shot and we wouldn't say he can one-shot people 48x higher out of verse because of this feat.

3. Isn't the point of this whole outlier discussion because you were saying they're not actually faster because Ikki was using a pseudo Ittou Shura, thus giving him the same reaction speed and making it no longer an outlier? Why are you now saying they're faster?

So all in all, Ikki beat 4 people without combat experience...

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

All that skill didn't help against alex or cole

So he beat four people with no experience and a mentallity of going for any openings. They were stronger and faster (movement speed only) then him by at least tenfold (considering the fourty eight multiplier seems suspicous) Had his equipment and abilities but were incapable of using them to there full extent.

How is this much of a skill feat to ikki? The guy who fights vastly superior opponents all the time via Skill? In the end I guess it applies but with the explanations given Im not sure how impressive it actually is... at least compared to his other skill feats.

 

[DeathNoodles]

Except that this is not the case, because the skill of the fakes is based on what Sara knows, not what Ikki knows, and he pretty much says that Sara doesn't get how combat works:

"She had a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of combat itself, and thought that the outcome depended on who was stronger. No. A battle does not simply go to the strongest. It was not a comparison of numbers and specs.

A battle was seizing victory in a single moment."

This makes me doubt even more about the said "clones" being as skilled as Ikki...

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It's still a feat none the less. A feat that dwarfs most of the people in the wiki. Any reason it should be removed.

And seriously this is becoming tiresome. You guys are so out of arguments you're using "ikki's more skilled than his feat" as a way to remove that one feat. Im tired of this. As creator of the profile and a person who has read the novels i deem that feat worthy of being there. If you don't like it, i don't care. It's a blog with feats, not all feats have to be god tier, call someone to close this , it's almost 350 posts and now i gotta argue against the "This feat is too humble for Ikki".

@The Pen

The cole fight had restricted amps which are well...skill. And against alex it was just a compatability problem, a girl ikki beat fought alex too remember? Cough, close the distance otherwise it's a stomp cough

 

[DeathNoodles]

It's still a feat none the less. A feat that dwarfs most of the people in the wiki. Any reason it should be removed.

And seriously this is becoming tiresome. You guys are so out of arguments you're using "ikki's more skilled than his feat" as a way to remove that one feat. Im tired of this. As creator of the profile and a person who has read the novels i deem that feat worthy of being there. If you don't like it, i don't care. It's a blog with feats, not all feats have to be god tier, call someone to close this , it's almost 350 posts and now i gotta argue against the "This feat is too humble for Ikki".

@The Pen

The cole fight had restricted amps which are well...skill. And against alex it was just a compatability problem, a girl ikki beat fought alex too remember? Cough, close the distance otherwise it's a stomp cough'''

Let's not boldly state that a character like Ikki is more skilled than most of the characters in this site, because that would not go over so well.

To be fair, Stella didn't beat Alex. The starting distance demanded to be shortened is because Stella is being given too much of an unfair advantage due to SBA, akin to Mercer taking advantage of his environment such as the civilians around him via SBA. The match was closed because it has gotten nowhere, not because it was necessarily a stomp, so...

 

[Kaltias]

I sincerely hope you aren't saying that you think you can overrule others just because you made the profile and read the novel.

That's not how it works and you've been here long enough to know it.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Looking back through the lens of hindsight Im pretty sure the girl fight was just poor compatibility as well, to close and alex gas, to far she nukes him and ee's. Range decided which way the stomp went... Amping physical prowess via pure skill? I hate it

Moving on in the end Im just glad we're at the very least clearing up the wording, while I still find the feat...Over the top at least we can establish it isn't fully circular scaling. Im open to further discussion but clearing up the wording is an improvement.

 

[Agnaa]

It's still a feat none the less. A feat that dwarfs most of the people in the wiki. Any reason it should be removed.

I'm not sure we need 68 different listed skill feats for a character when the 68th is worse than the other 67. We don't need Goku's DBS page to list all 200 of his mountain-busting feats throughout the series, as that just clutters up the page without telling us anything important (even if those feats are all way above most characters in fiction).

It also works as a sort of retraction of the times you've brought it up as a skill feat in threads, even if it's still a skill feat it acknowledges our issues with it by taking an action to delegitimize it.

But then again, I'm not pushing for the feat to be removed because of this reason, just spitballing what sense I can make for wanting that.

 

[Chariot190]

>and read the novel.

Actually, I firmly believe that if one wants to heavily debate something that they should be extremely well versed on the subject so they are aware of all the context, statements and the like needed to properly debate the subject including statements and context that may exist elsewhere within the source material that may effect the outcome.

Although, given the information posted in the thread, assuming that it is indeed all the relevant information, I would have to say the feat is very suspect and is either contradictory or not actually that good of a feat going by the points made by both sides.

 

[Kaltias]

@Chariot

The thing is, he read the novel, sure, but a lot of people here read the fight anyway, so they aren't really lacking context.

I explained that part poorly admittedly, knowing what you're talking about is still important.

But it doesn't mean Earl suddenly has the right to tell everyone to shut up and decide what goes on the profile and what doesn't.

Edit: Classes are starting, i'll be offline for a while

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes and i hope you know im not here about to be schooled on what are good feats in context by people who don't know the differnce between effective and technical skill.

I know being the creator doesn't give me rights, but this is just plain stupid. "He's too good for this". Is that seriously an argument. Kal you're usually reasonable, but im pretty sure even you can see that 350 posts for "he's too good" is not good.

 

[NeoSuperior]

If you want to be "well informed", I'd recommend reading the previous fight between Sara and Kuraudo as well.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Kal

I am the one who will end up using those feats in debates either way,

But hey, last time i debated too much against a group, i got banned so eh. Since you guys don't seem to have more important things to do on the wiki other than debating why my character is too good for his feats. I'll be the only reasonable guy here and say remove that feat.

Heaps of actual wank in some of the most known profiles on the wiki > Nobody cares

Ikki is too good for his feats... > YEET!

 

[Chariot190]

Dont start throwing accusations of wank at others, that doesnt do anything but piss off others. Plus that's kinda waving a red flag. I'd say the same to others accusing you of wanking as well, opinions exist after all. Both sides can disagree yeah but dont call others wankers, especially given the enviroment that this debate is happening in.

 

[NeoSuperior]

I still believe it should be kept as an "affinity" feat against hot-blooded shounen protagonist type of characters who blindly rush in, but that's just me...

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I still believe it should be kept as an "affinity" feat against hot-blooded shounen protagonist type of characters who blindly rush in, but that's just me...

Not just "you", just everyone who has actually read the series. But eh when you can't win you can't win.

@Everyone

I feel like everyone misunderstood what i meant. I didn't mean everyone wanks, i mean people pay more attention to this than actual CRT's that are made to shut down wank. Literally saying "ikki is more skilled than what we make him to be" is more important than correcting wank. That was my point, i'm not targeting anyone, there is no point to it. Because at the end of the day, we just ended up "buffing" ikki. Im just dissapointed at how much recognition a pointless thread like this as opposed to threads that actually deserve the recognition.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Earl, you have not been through a vast majority of the site if you truly believe we are wasting our time on this thread. There were many other topics that were of more significance than this thread that were dealt with over the course of multiple threads. This thread is hardly special. Stop acting like it is. The fact this thread even got more attention then just 2 or 3 staff just proves how much you're stone walling here. The facts have been presented and if you don't like them, that's fine. But you dont have to get accusatory.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I again, never acussed anyone. Compared to some other threads i've seen this got needlessly more recognition. For "he's too good for his feats". The very concept is dull.

But i already agreed to this and i already explained im not accusing anyone. Don't interpret my words like that. Anyway someone close this and remove the feat. Im already tired of this thread.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Everyone agrees here tough...

Everyone agrees that the clones were forced to ignore the finer parts of battle, which allowed Ikki to kill them. With a X10 amp only, it's not even that ridiculous.

Everyone agrees that they can replicate Ikki's powress technically (movements and abilities) but can't do the planning needed beyond "hit it till it dies" while using the afro mentioned skills.

Everyone agreed that it needs to be reworded.

Most can agree that killing 4 stronger enemies than you can be a notable feat.

Other than that, we are arguing literal semantics (what battle powress means technically), unless I missed something.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Most can agree that killing 4 stronger enemies than you can be a notable feat.

This is what part wasn't agreed upon. The feat will be removed cus ikki's far too skilled to have a feat like that listed.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Killing someone 10 times faster and stronger can be notable, especially if in four. But I digress, doesn't matter. The thread's purpose is done, let's make a new one for multipliers and close this.

 

[NeoSuperior]

@Ricsi-viragosi

Actually, from what I am reading, it seems like some people try to turn this into "the clones are babies that can't do anything" and that the feat is therefore completely useless and should be removed entirely. Not sure if that stance has really been dropped by everyone yet or not by this point.

Other than that, your summary pretty much contains what I also think the result of this thread should be.

 

[Schnee_One]

Killing someone 10 times faster and stronger can be notable, especially if in four. But I digress, doesn't matter. The thread's purpose is done, let's make a new one for multipliers and close this.

The Schnee Squadron approves this post.

 

[GLHF22]

There are around 28 people who agreed and funny thing is you can see that in the very first reply

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So, will anyone else make it or do I start with making the next thread? I'm free for a few hours, and multipliers are kind of a hard language fact, so it should go ove... I'm not going to jinx it.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Actually that multiplier thing might end up as a possibility but yeah someone close this i lost interest. And im pretty sure many others did. Start the new thread.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So, remove that from the blog and then we close it, alright. I'll make the next thread.