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Ikki defeating four perfectly identical, but stronger, copies of himself

Just saying but the word "several dozen" and I mean "few twelves" in the 48x multiplier is unlikely because language speaking, the Japanese word that conveys that words are highly rare or even straight up impossible. To get several dozen, the original text needs to say "ikutsuka no juunibai" which sounds so ******* stupid I can't even laugh at that.

Suujuu sounds more reasonable translation for dozens which means "several tens" and much more plausible ways of saying a multiplier than that abomination of a word. FYI, the words are basically phrase equivalent of naming a guy "James Grossweiner".
 
Admins brought up a rule like "outliers are the correct assumption in most cases that's why unless there are actual facts it's always an outlier even if there are very very likely assumptions in play"? Please quote an admin bringing this rule up cus i missed it.
 
ShiroyashaGinSan said:
Just saying but the word "several dozen" and I mean "few twelves" in the 48x multiplier is unlikely because language speaking, the Japanese word that conveys that words are highly rare or even straight up impossible. To get several dozen, the original text needs to say "ikutsuka no juunibai" which sounds so ******* stupid I can't even laugh at that.
Suujuu sounds more reasonable translation for dozens which means "several tens" and much more plausible ways of saying a multiplier than that abomination of a word. FYI, the words are basically phrase equivalent of naming a guy "James Grossweiner".
Click to expand...
Can't really argue with this nor can i find the raws of Rakudai, but if we do then im all up for it. Me saying "it's really not that big of a deal from 48x to 36x or sth along those lines" can be taken as "if we do find raws or more context then i woudn't mind using a more likely number.
 
Hl3 or bust said:
I mean
Admins agree that the feat is dumb and either needs to be removed to drastically reworded

Like Wokistan
Click to expand...
Wok:

Has 0 knowledge of rakudai

Doesn't know pseudo ittou shura is a thing

Hasn't commentet in ages on this topic especially after it was brought up

His first comment was saying "yeah skill scaling is dumb" which is plainly wrong as most of you were...this is what happens when you make threads without being knowledgeable on something.

And lastly wokistan never said anything about the outlier thing not including likely assumptions so no.
 
The feat is all he needs. Yeah i saw what was happening. Literally none of you even got the fact that the effective skill wasn't the same from the feat. Totally that's the only thing you need.

Pseudo ittou shura. And it's a very in character move. Still he didn't bring up anything regarding outliers, so stop hiding behind admins if you please.
 
Got a number in Japanese.

Ittou Shura: "By removing the limiter of his body and surpassing his limits, he can increase his strength for ten times worth."

Ittou Rasetsu: "By compressing his strength even more, and making it to just a single second, he can increase his strength for few hundred times."
 
Can we ******* not start assuming unstated things?

Jesus Christ, Earl. Please, just stop arguing the same, lost points. You're actively assuming Ikki did things that weren't stated.

Just, for once, can you please just ******* drop something? You make Ikki single-handedly the most frustrating character to do anything with.
 
The clones aren't unable to do the mythical act of parrying, which is why I have a problem with this. They were in range of Ikki already, and were in 4. They were forced to attack an opening, yes, but when they undoubtedly see a sword going for their neck (literally, one got decapitated) then by the time it would have traveled half the distance they could have done any number of things to not get killed by it.

The fact that there were four of them here is also a pretty big problem. Ikki's sword should physically be unable to do anything to parry, let alone counter attack, all of them at once. Maybe one by trucking it to run into the blade, but all of them..?


He either used the amp himself, which makes this no more impressive than a guy killing 4 people who blindly attacked, or this is nonsensical. Regardless, it would need to be reworded as "Could kill four clones with all of his physical abilities while they used Ittou Shuora."
 
Reading the part Rather linked, apparently the technique to create the clones only includes the physicals, not the intelligence and instincts of the person

"Her ability does not truly recreate a subject, it only materializes her own imagination."

"But how accurate can your imagination be? The outer appearance is exact, and with the eyes of a supreme artist like youself, physical ability as well. Those are easy enough for you to draw. But… after that?"

"She had no ability to imagine the subtleties of combat, only what she could see in the physical model she chose and the idea of victory. The Blazers she imagined and materialized with Purple Caricature could break through an opponent's defenses by sheer power, but their tactics were simple and straightforward. If an opponent exposed an opening as Ikki had done, they would attack it. They must."

Going by this I don't understand how the clones would scale to Ikki' skills in any capacity, instead of simply having one trait that wastes those skills
 
ShiroyashaGinSan said:
Got a number in Japanese.

Ittou Shura: "By removing the limiter of his body and surpassing his limits, he can increase his strength for ten times worth."

Ittou Rasetsu: "By compressing his strength even more, and making it to just a single second, he can increase his strength for few hundred times."
Click to expand...
OOF
 
While many people would agree that "a few" means three or more, the actual dictionary definition of "a few" is, "not many but more than one." So, "a few" cannot be one, but it can be as low as two.
 
Just make it 200. And while Ittou Rasetsu may be safe by our current discussion, we should focus about the 10x Ittou Shura for now.
 
@Andy... People... pls stop bunching skill, experience and tactics all into one, because they ARE NOT the same. You can have the same skill as someone, but no practical experience, while the other one has. Same with tactics. Assuming they are the same is flat out wrong and I think thats one of the biggest issues here...
 
Even if it's not the same as tactics, skill is still mostly a mental thing. Someone who copies the physical appearance and capabilities of someone should not be assumed to be copying their skill as well
 
Its stated that the fake Edelweiss is using the exact same moves and skill as the original, just more "naive" and without tactics or instinct >.>
 
Actually @Shira can you post that "thread" on my wall? I mean post the draft for the thread. I am gonna downgrade SSSAF Ikki to Low 7-C soon, so i might as well do both of those in 1 thread.
 
Not just that. They seem to make a difference of:

Skill and Combat Experience/Prowess

Having skill doesn't mean you have combat experience.
 
Also ikki could have used ittou shura for reaction speed increase. Also reaction speed being higher than combat speed is no news.

1. That wasn't stated in the text.

2. You do realize that the clones would also have higher reaction speed than combat speed, right? Specifically they'd have reaction speed 48x higher than Ikki's. This explains away nothing.

And even then, he still knows what they'll do, setting up traps by holding his sword in position is a thing.

Are you actually, seriously suggesting here that they ran into his sword and decapitated themselves?

>Circular scaling

>Only the speed provides a problem

Only the speed provides a problem because it's the only one you won't concede on. You're willing to say AP doesn't scale because of cutting AP, and you're sorta willing to say skill doesn't scale (even though you have kind of tried to get skill to scale).

Going by this I don't understand how the clones would scale to Ikki' skills in any capacity, instead of simply having one trait that wastes those skills

According to Earl, "Because they used Ittou Shura which is one of the biggest skill feats in the series"
 
Ittou Shura is a skill feat yes, but it comes down to them lacking the actual intellectual capacity to strategize how they use the techniques they have. They're basically robots with martial arts downloaded but no field testing. Only reason they even probably do Ittou Shura is because Sara wants her puppets to be Stronk.
 
Aren't they specifically capable of what she imagined them to do? Like, she was making a man out of nowhere but her imagination after the four clones, so I'm guessing that she could just have them have the amp and drawbacks without the finer details, much like their combat skill.

Regardless, they were forced to be predictable. I can know how to dual wield and stab someone in a [insert impressive skill feat here], if I run into a blade then they my opponent isn't that skilled regardless.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Not just that. They seem to make a difference of:

Skill and Combat Experience/Prowess

Having skill doesn't mean you have combat experience.
Click to expand...
Combat skills and combat prowess are the exact same thing tho?

Even then outskilling someone who is extremely skilled on paper but unable to use said skills properly in combat is just as impressive as outskilling a toddler.

It doesn't matter at all if they used Ittou Shura, they lost to an opponent that might as well be paraplegic as far as they're concerned.

Either they're complete idiots or Ikki surviving is PIS
 
@Kal

It really isn't. Skill is a very general concept. I may be skilled at controling my body. Doesn't mean i am good at combat. I may be skilled at reading my opponents, doesn't mean i am skilled in combat. That is the point.

@Agnaa

The text never states anything cus it's not an ability. The name is made up by me as a way to reffer to his normal reaction amp (which you can find in the feat blog). Again if there is an explanation we just say "he likely just used this but the text didn't say" rather than "The author was out of his mind cus he didn't state anything". That logic is only used on CRT's when trying to add something, because you need good proof, not when you're justifying a skill feat.

Not ran into his sword. But Ikki just needed significantly less movement anyway.

Yeah Agnaa, idk if you've read the feat, the edelweiss feat or have been listening to literally any rakudai supporters up till this point. Skill scales, but it's not the same as combat. They have the skill feats, but due to the set mindset they are very limited in what they can do. Im serious agnaa, as a medaka box supporter, it dissapoints me to see you struggle this much with this. We've explained the skill part like 10 times by different members why the "and you're willing to agree that it doesn't scale (although you say it scales)".
 
Now that I think about it, it feels like we are missing something obvious about all this that, if revealed, would probably make all of us sigh in resignation for wasting so much time on this discussion. I wonder if the TL overlooked something or mistranslated something... something just doesn't seem to add up about the clones even though the way it was phrased seemed like the situation should be obvious to the reader.
 
@Earl

They are very much the same thing because we are talking about "combat" skills and not just skills in general.

And regardless, skill is completely meaningless if you can't use it due to outside circumstances. If the clones were forced to act dumb, they are not skilled as far as the fight is concerned, and that's the only thing that matters as far as the feat is concerned.
 
But weren't the clones of Kuraudo smart enough to dispell such ideas that Ikki's clones are "dumb" in the overexaggerated way people are making them out to be here?
 
NeoSuperior said:
But weren't the clones of Kuraudo smart enough to dispell such ideas that Ikki's clones are "dumb" in the overexaggerated way people are making them out to be here?
Click to expand...
May need to re read the fight.

@Kal

That is the idea though. That is what we're saying with "theoretical skill is the same but effective skill is different".
 
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