IDW Sonic CRT

[ElixirBlue]

The one that he proudly states that he doesn't need to go in his final form while on his super form

It goes back to Dr. Starlight. Metal wouldn't need a "Proper plan" if Master Overlord scaled to Supers, as he would just need to overwhelm them. Shadow would Power Null Master Overlord if it were a Super, as to be a Super, it would need to heavily rely on Chaos Energy. Sonic states its not a Super.

You are heavily relying on Metal Sonic being a reliable narrator who is good at planning, where characters like Dr. Starlight doubts Metal Sonic's planning, Sonic's observation, and scaling to Base characters, all saying otherwise.

These are the only two pages in the entire fight where they AREN'T on top of Master Overlord, stop manipulating evidence

They charge at him (Watch as they aren't on Metal)

Metal attacks but doesn't hit them because his speed is relative to them

But since I'm "manipulating" the evidence instead of presenting them as they are, I clearly drew these. Yeah, fan creation.

posted either PIS or OOC statments

I also can easily say that Metal saying he didn't need his "final form" to mean its greater than his Super form to be the OOC statement/an unsupported interpretation of his statement to mean MO more powerful than the Super Forms.

Saying things are "PIS or OOC" without supporting evidence to the claim is not enough, when I'm able to do it back

case in point Sonic's statment, clearly talking about hax

Show a scan Sonic meant Metal lost the Hax that was owning him and Knuckles by losing Super, if Sonic's statement was so clear, that would make Metal's statement not OOC

Here, I'll show a scan for my argument of Tails saying Metal lost abilities(Could likely mean Hax) from losing Master Overlord, that Sonic states was not a Super Form, than anyone saying that about Metal losing Super

since his literal transformation was capable of blocking ALL their attacks

Which transformation are you referring to?

If you are talking about Super Neo Metal, he never got hit or blocked any attack, other than equally bouncing off of Sonic because he was playing with Sonic. Well, there was one attack that landed (Power Null, also no blocking there

If you are talking about Master Overlord, well...

Hey, theres a block

The rest aren't blocks

Don't know what you mean by "blocking ALL their attacks".

and this Starline statment where he that Metal plan was bad because he only cared about OVERWHELMING POWER

Which Metal Sonic desired after losing Super and found himself getting beaten on by Shadow

It was Silver's TK to suck the virus out, with the Warp Topaz opening a portal

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/831306727604879370/876998061631627364/unknown.jpeg
And then speed

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/831306727604879370/876998572489474089/unknown.jpeg
Raw strengh did NOT win this and that's extremely dishonest to say so

Base Silver's raw strength ------------ Super Silver's raw strength
​

But this thing about Silver could lead to derailment

 

[ElixirBlue]

Heres more for comparison, to support my argument.

While Shadow can Power Null Super Neo Metal Sonic,

A stated Super Form

Shadow could not Power Null Master Overlord's transformation (Which, in a way, does make Master Overlord better than his Super Form, since he couldn't be Power Null out of his stated non-Super Form by Shadow

Neo Metal Sonic, used his innate ability to transform into Master Overlord, using the available metal around him

using the Master Emerald simply as a power source to fuel the ability.

If Metal was using the Master Emerald as a powersource, wouldn't that automatically make him as strong as Super Sonic?

3 main reasons as for no:

1. In IDW lore, the power from Chaos Emeralds, including the Master Emerald, gives a variable amount of power depending on the situation and usage. It does not automatically mean it gave Master Overlord power so great the Base characters were helpless against it.

(Remember, chaotic means unpredictable. Metal shouldn't have been able to predict his "Final Form" would be more powerful than the Super Forms. He even states he is disappointed he didn't even need to use his final form for what had he planned because the Super State was taking care of Sonic and Knuckles for Metal)

2. Automatically assuming the Master Emerald always give the maximum amount of power, would mean anytime the Master Emerald gives someone a Super Form and not a Hyper Form, would be its PIS. (With Sonic Mania, Super Emeralds are canon once again)

3. Since IDW used Game Canon as its starting point, there are canon weapons and technology we don't scale to Super Forms, even if they are using the 7 Chaos Emeralds

Chaos Energy Canon

 

[Theuser789]

The last one I was responding to. You said "In"

...This is a literal nitpick, when I said "in" I meant "on top of him", when people say they are "in bed" nobody means they are literally inside the bed

Edit: I guess "on" Master Overlord would be the best choice, not like it changes my argument

It goes back to Dr. Starlight. Metal wouldn't need a "Proper plan" if Master Overlord scaled to Supers, as he would just need to overwhelm them. Shadow would Power Null Master Overlord if it were a Super, as to be a Super, it would need to heavily rely on Chaos Energy. Sonic states its not a Super.

Bro did you even READ what Starline or I said? He literally complains he only had "overwhelming power", he literally complains that Metal only had power to overwhelm others but not an actual strategy ("He thought overwheling power would save the day without a proper plan), I can't believe your interpretation is the exact opposite of what he actually said. Your other setence is a complete non sequitur, I never said he was a super state

You are heavily relying on Metal Sonic being a reliable narrator who is good at planning, where characters like Dr. Starlight doubts Metal Sonic's planning, Sonic's observation, and scaling to Base characters, all saying otherwise.

No, YOU are the one who is heavily recontextualizing and misunderstading character statments that DON'T mean what you think it means, while nitpicking evidence that is literally PIS even if he DIDN'T scale to supers

Btw, Starline is NOT a realible source, his "proper plan" was worse than Eggman's (Even though his statment HEAVILY goes against yours) and Sonic's is a complete non sequitur to my point

They charge at him (Watch as they aren't on Metal)

Elixir, if a bunch of flies flew at your face you wouldn't be able to block them super super easily, also they LITERALLY charged to be "on Metal", stop ignoring your own scans to say I am wrong

I also can easily say that Metal saying he didn't need his "final form" to mean its greater than his Super form to be the OOC statement/an unsupported interpretation of his statement to mean MO more powerful than the Super Forms.

Saying things are "PIS or OOC" without supporting evidence to the claim is not enough, when I'm able to do it back

No, you can't, that's not how debating works, "no u" isn't a valid point by itself, there's actual reasoning behind my claims, unlike your bolded which is literally a "no u are the PIS". Master Overlord is already portrayed as being far above base characters, their attacks only distract him, they can only attack using combined moves, Sonic and Knuckles would rather use their super forms to fight him, and they can only beat him without the Master Emerald, meanwhile your evidence is..? None, just that I said it was PIS so you went "no u" on me

Show a scan Sonic meant Metal lost the Hax that was owning him and Knuckles by losing Super, if Sonic's statement was so clear, that would make Metal's statement not OOC

Here, I'll show a scan for my argument of Tails saying Metal lost abilities(Could likely mean Hax) from losing Master Overlord, that Sonic states was not a Super Form, than anyone saying that about Metal losing Super

That's NOT what Tails says... sigh, he says he reverted back to his base abilities, plus Master Overlord does have some abilities his other forms didn't (like the crystal attack)

Also, I am tired of this weird shifting of burden of prood, you are the one who came in this thread saying Master Overlord isn't super form tier (need to word this correctly otherwise you are going to nitpick on he "isn't a super form or whatever, so YOU need to prove it, I don't need to prove why I am right, you have barely provided any evidence, only demading things, things that YOU should show

Yes, Sonic was not talking about hax, he was looking at the bright said "on the plus side, he isn't a super form anymore", this isn't a statment where Sonic is glad that Metal is inferior in every way like your tunnel vision implies, basic english interpretation would interpret this as Sonic being glad Metal lost things that Master Overlord doesn't have, ergo the hax, especially since he was still getting owned, his attacks were like flies hitting someone's face, an annoyance, he had to taunt him and use combined attacks, and even then only the Master Emerald being removed and the ship actually did anything

Which transformation are you referring to?

Master Overlord transformation, which you completely glossed over in all your shitty examples, and then you later posted but then just focused on "power null" (which is complete bullshit, that's just time limit, Shadow is never ever stated to null super forms, his timer just ran out because that's something we can prove, otherwise he would have nulled the Master Emerald)

This is what I mean by manipulating evidence, you post a BUNCH of irrelevant shit, then you complete gloss over on the parts that debunk you, like his transformation blocking all Knuckles and Shadow's attacks

Which Metal Sonic desired after losing Super and found himself getting beaten on by Shadow

Another re-contextualizing, Starline's statment of "overwhelming power" has nothing to do with "Metal desired his lost power", you are completely making shit up that's not said, but it fits your vision, so you just go with it

Master Overlord wasn't something he just made on the spot, and even then we SEE Master Overlord in Starline's statment about raw power, your recontextualization makes absolutely no sense

Base Silver's raw strength ------------ Super Silver's raw strength
​

But this thing about Silver could lead to derailment

TK is objectlively not raw strengh, it's a hax that is supported by your strengh

The entire first part of your second post is a complete non sequitur, him not being a super form means absolutely nothing to my argument, Metal Overlord also isn't a super form

1. In IDW lore, the power from Chaos Emeralds, including the Master Emerald, gives a variable amount of power depending on the situation and usage. It does not automatically mean it gave Master Overlord power so great the Base characters were helpless against it.

Starline never mentions the Master Emerald in his statment, this is more of "taking a statment and extrapolating things that aren't said", also even with a variable power there's still a minumun, which 5-B rating already is (the Eclipse Cannon laser is seen, and that's 5-B with six emeralds)

Also why are you cherrypicking Master Overlord? If you are using "muh variable" then no super form has 5-B feats, you are just scaling based on your completely arbitary scaling, where Super Sonic can scale but not big mean Master Overlord because he passes those

(Remember, chaotic means unpredictable. Metal shouldn't have been able to predict his "Final Form" would be more powerful than the Super Forms. He even states he is disappointed he didn't even need to use his final form for what had he planned because the Super State was taking care of Sonic and Knuckles for Metal)

MORE baseless recontextualizing, that's NOT what he ******* means when he was disappointed, first only the emeralds have "chaotic" power, not the Master Emerald, meaning that using Master Overlord would be less of a gamble than his super form itself and would automatically be more powerful than it, especially since the ME is stronger than the emeralds ("Most powerful gemstone in the world"), meaning only Super Metal would have the risk of his power being variable

2. Automatically assuming the Master Emerald always give the maximum amount of power, would mean anytime the Master Emerald gives someone a Super Form and not a Hyper Form, would be its PIS. (With Sonic Mania, Super Emeralds are canon once again)

Why are you using game scaling now? What the ****? Hyper forms aren't canon in IDW, we have never seen any Super Emeralds in IDW, that's not how the IDW canon works, we don't assume the exact same things happened in the game canon, only things the comic has show (Like the werehog), that's why there's no 4-A, 2-C, FTL, 5-A scaling, this is a complete non sequitur

3. Since IDW used Game Canon as its starting point, there are canon weapons and technology we don't scale to Super Forms, even if they are using the 7 Chaos Emeralds

Chaos Energy Canon

No, that's not the reason, I was here when IDW started being scaled, the reason is that game events can happen differently and therefore we can only scale what is actually show in the comic, that's why it's only 5-B even though we see the Time Eater, because we can't know if he performed the same feat

I am tired of being Mr.Nice Guy, post proof and evidence against Master Overlord super scaling, the burden is on you

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I feel like this thread has sorely derailed let's just focus on the stuff that should be accepted with minimal issues (such as updating the IDW profiles with the appropriate P&A and adding the speed calc for super forms).

Both the Super forms/speed scaling and IDW Canon = Game Canon are both discussions that should be saved for another thread.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Since Burning Blaze/Metal Sonic scaling was proposed in the OP I’d say it’s appropriate to discuss that here.

 

[Theuser789]

The OP only brought up speed scaling

Master Overlord does have that feat of blocking the ships lasers with his hand tho

 

[ShakeResounding]

Just wanna say that we do cross-scale some events from the games to IDW when nothing is contradictory to it. It's why Sonic has Resistance to Mind Manipulation in the first place, for example.

 

[Theuser789]

Just wanna say that we do cross-scale some events from the games to IDW when nothing is contradictory to it. It's why Sonic has Resistance to Mind Manipulation in the first place, for example.

Yes, but we don't cross-scale the main AP feats, like the ones in Unleashed for example?

 

[ElixirBlue]

Yes, but we don't cross-scale the main AP feats, like the ones in Unleashed for example?

Doesn’t the Unleashed feat shown in IDW implied the CEC pushed the continents up and not Dark Gaia like in the games?

 

[ElixirBlue]

The OP only brought up speed scaling

Master Overlord does have that feat of blocking the ships lasers with his hand tho

Reacting to lasers implied superior speed to Base characters? Pog

(Will read User’s wall of text in a moment)

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Laser dodging feats may be a bit sus in comics since you can’t tell if the character aim dodged

 

[ElixirBlue]

Laser dodging feats may be a bit sus in comics since you can’t tell if the character aim dodged

Same sus with Master Overlord blocking the lasers, since he was focusing on the Battleship

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

so what is the result here?

 

[ElixirBlue]

so what is the result here?

Everything in the OP is good to go except Master Overlord's scaling, which is being discussed.

 

[Theuser789]

Doesn’t the Unleashed feat shown in IDW implied the CEC pushed the continents up and not Dark Gaia like in the games?

Not by itself no.

Reacting to lasers implied superior speed to Base characters? Pog

That's NOT what I ******* said, stop making context for stuff, my post was in support of FTL in general, not "superiority to base characters", otherwise I would have said so

 

[ElixirBlue]

Bro did you even READ what Starline or I said?

Majority of them contend more insults over time so I gloss over. Don't care reading that.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Not by itself no.

I don't understand but I guess the Unleashed example for IDW isn't usable? Explain.

 

[Theuser789]

Majority of them contend more insults over time so I gloss over. Don't care reading that.

Asking if you did read something isn't a insult, it's a question, especially when the scan is either crystal clear, or I have to say it 5 times, if you "don't care" to read the argument that's a concession

I don't understand but I guess the Unleashed example for IDW isn't usable? Explain.

Because all we see is a beam hitting the planet, we don't have the full context to claim the results are the same as in the game canon, in fact in the game canon Dark Gaia is the one who split the planet, not the cannon

 

[Fireld]

Because all we see is a beam hitting the planet, we don't have the full context to claim the results are the same as in the game canon, in fact in the game canon Dark Gaia is the one who split the planet, not the cannon

hmm... if sb asked one of the comic's writers about details (like Sonic's speed or the villains powers) on social media, would their response there count as legit?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

hmm... if sb asked one of the comic's writers about details (like Sonic's speed or the villains powers) on social media, would their response there count as legit?

Generally no. Questions asked with the intention getting a Tier aren’t valid for proof, which is why Alien X and Rick Sanchez aren’t Multiverse level

 

[Fireld]

Generally no. Questions asked with the intention getting a Tier aren’t valid for proof, which is why Alien X and Rick Sanchez aren’t Multiverse level

Vader's 1 of the exeptions then. What about asking if the comic timeline went the same as game one up until Sonic Forces?

 

[Theuser789]

I guess it would count? But it needs to be exactly the same

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Vader's 1 of the exeptions then. What about asking if the comic timeline went the same as game one up until Sonic Forces?

That should be fine.

If it’s confirmed it mirrors the game canon I don’t know what’d stop us from straight up giving IDW characters the statistics of their game counterparts. Though that’d make me wonder why Classic Sonic isn’t in that Generations flashback

 

[Fireld]

That should be fine.

If it’s confirmed it mirrors the game canon I don’t know what’d stop us from straight up giving IDW characters the statistics of their game counterparts. Though that’d make me wonder why Classic Sonic isn’t in that Generations flashback

OK thnx! Anybody wanna try that? I don't have twitter.

My guess: He's probably remembering the beginning of the game just when Time Eater kidnaps his friends. Maybe cause those flashbacks in specific were focused on how dangerous Eggman can be, they didn't bother with the other details around the plot of those games

 

[ElixirBlue]

OK thnx! Anybody wanna try that? I don't have twitter.

My guess: He's probably remembering the beginning of the game just when Time Eater kidnaps his friends. Maybe cause those flashbacks in specific were focused on how dangerous Eggman can be, they didn't bother with the other details around the plot of those games

Perhaps but its speculation.

If it’s confirmed it mirrors the game canon I don’t know what’d stop us from straight up giving IDW characters the statistics of their game counterparts. Though that’d make me wonder why Classic Sonic isn’t in that Generations flashback

What stops it for me, is that Ian said the exact same thing for Post-Genesis Wave plus SatAM and AoSTC characters and Sonic 06 adaption(and Shadow the Hedgehog adaption).

We don't treat Post-Genesis like that and Archie Solaris has a lot of things going for it that contradicts Ian's statements of intending 06's adaption to be 1-to-1 with the games (the Cosmology, Ancient Walkers or Neo Walkers and relations like Kingdom of Acorn).

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I’d personally prefer to avoid cross-scalig, so very well.

 

[Theuser789]

We don't treat Post-Genesis like that

We do actually, for some reason, that's why that Sonic is FTL

 

[ElixirBlue]

We do actually, for some reason, that's why that Sonic is FTL

Something look into when transitioning to Post-Gen scaling.

 

[Fireld]

Perhaps but its speculation.

My 1st guess, maybe. My 2nd guess, more objective. Also Sonic's dialoge implies that too

What stops it for me, is that Ian said the exact same thing for Post-Genesis Wave plus SatAM and AoSTC characters and Sonic 06 adaption(and Shadow the Hedgehog adaption).

Did he say the same thing & could you link it? I thought he said a bunch game events do take place in post-gen but with their differences? Idw has been said to be canon to the games, no tv show characters have appeared there nor have any event up until Forces been contradicted so far either

I’d personally prefer to avoid cross-scalig, so very well.

Yet powers got a pass for cross-scaling

 

[Theuser789]

IDW is not canon to the games, the games are canon to them, what you linked are the TSR comics who are not part of the IDW universe

 

[Fireld]

IDW is not canon to the games, the games are canon to them

I meant that. Just made an error, my bad

what you linked are the TSR comics who are not part of the IDW universe

Ah ok, still my bad

So anybody gonna ask one of the writers if the canon is the exact same to the games till Forces?

 

[ElixirBlue]

So anybody gonna ask one of the writers if the canon is the exact same to the games till Forces?

We can't do that, as its against the site's rules (See Rick and Morty and Alien X)

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Alrighty, preparing to apply this.

@ElixirBlue I forgot the conclusion of the Metal Sonic debate, what do I do with the Faker’s Super State and Master Overlord?

 

[ElixirBlue]

Alrighty, preparing to apply this.

@ElixirBlue I forgot the conclusion of the Metal Sonic debate, what do I do with the Faker’s Super State and Master Overlord?

Leave Master Overlord’s stats alone for now, and go ahead to apply it to Metal’s Super State.

 

[Theuser789]

Nah, you can't just agree with leaving it alone, but not upgrade it's speed, it's just incorrect, even more so than keeping it at 5-B from your POV

 

[ElixirBlue]

you can't just agree with leaving it alone, but not upgrade it's speed, it's just incorrect,

? The double, triple, negative is throwing me off. What do you mean?

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I can help with the additions (that have been approved) it y'all want.

 

[Theuser789]

? The double, triple, negative is throwing me off. What do you mean?

You can't just concede on the current Master Overlord scaling, but yet not agree with the speed upgrades, when they are connected. It's just stonewalling

 

[ElixirBlue]

You can't just concede on the current Master Overlord scaling, but yet not agree with the speed upgrades, when they are connected. It's just stonewalling

Concede on what? 1 word of dialogue that can be view at as Metal Sonic being mistaken or had wanting to use Master Overlord to defeat Sonic instead of his Super Form like in Heroes?

I was thinking of having a thread to solely discuss Master Overlord and let the other edits be made.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Did he say the same thing & could you link it? I thought he said a bunch game events do take place in post-gen but with their differences?

I can’t find the link but it was his statement of making the comics much closer to the games. I don’t believe he said anything about the events being different from how they were portrayed in the games and had even written a conversation between Antione and Bunnie on how they weren’t there in Station Square during the events of SA1’s Post-Genesis Wave, when they were there in SA1’s Pre-Genesis Wave.