Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou CRT

[Siperri123]

Of course they have many limitations to become 1-A, but their durability is definitely 1-A.

 

[Ionliosite]

But at no point are they shown to create universes, and aside from pocket dimensions of unknown size, all universe known were created by either Akuto, the Extra-universal Gods or TLOI.

 

[Hykuu]

weren't the extra universal gods also eventually a story to akuto? I do remember them in the end being portrayed to being on the level of TLOI and akuto (as the void body itself is basically him becoming his own law of identity within an empty universe somehow)

 

[Antvasima]

DarkLK told me that he will reply here in a few days:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3451437#3

 

[Maxnumb231]

It seems ion's point make sense. But going back to the idea of each layer so let me reconfirm. So it's high 1B but the computer gods seems to be not 1-A so they are still within the layer itself?

 

[Siperri123]

weren't the extra universal gods also eventually a story to akuto? I do remember them in the end being portrayed to being on the level of TLOI and akuto (as the void body itself is basically him becoming his own law of identity within an empty universe somehow)

The archetypes are equivalent to akuto because they all go beyond the hierarchy in their personal stories. but in Tloi's universe, they divide into a hierarchy. (A higher archetype is an irrational existence for a lower archetype.) Like Tloi is an irrational existence for akuto.

 

[Hykuu]

Ah, that makes sense

 

[Siperri123]

It seems ion's point make sense. But going back to the idea of each layer so let me reconfirm. So it's high 1B but the computer gods seems to be not 1-A so they are still within the layer itself?

computer gods <great network <a single-celled organism <a layer. Great network contain information structures that go beyond the dimension of computer gods.

 

[Maxnumb231]

computer gods <great network <a single-celled organism <a layer. Great network contain information structures that go beyond the dimension of computer gods.

Thats why i need a quote for this type of stuff which people will try to parrott as a fact. Though DarkLk will comment soon but i do inherently want a quote whether great network containing structures beyomd dimensions. Though "dimensions" needs more congext whether its talking about spatial or just plain old universes

 

[PsychoWarper]

Question involving Atuko Sais none 1-A keys, so he doesnt have any resistences in any of these keys?

 

[Ionliosite]

computer gods <great network <a single-celled organism <a layer. Great network contain information structures that go beyond the dimension of computer gods.

Thats why i need a quote for this type of stuff which people will try to parrott as a fact. Though DarkLk will comment soon but i do inherently want a quote whether great network containing structures beyomd dimensions. Though "dimensions" needs more congext whether its talking about spatial or just plain old universes
Dimensions in Daimaou always mean universes. The equivalent of what we call dimension on the site is called layer.

 

[Ionliosite]

Question involving Atuko Sais none 1-A keys, so he doesnt have any resistences in any of these keys?

Yes, Akuto doesn't have resistances.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Huh should make any fight with him more interesting I guess.

 

[GLHF22]

So infinite layers is just High 1B?

 

[Ionliosite]

Of the storyteller with the lowest story density, yes. Since he percieves that as fiction, he's baseline 1-A. The storyteller with the second lowest story density will perceive said storyteller as fiction, and the same applies to the story he created, which means we already have a 1-A perceiving another as fiction. Due to story density, this cycle repits with every single storyteller, and there are an infinite amount of them due to being one for each of the infinite universes in the multiverse. So you have an infinite amount of 1-As each perceiving the last as fiction within the lowest layer of Akuto's story.

 

[GLHF22]

Uh.. so if you are 1A from higher story can your weakest creation in your story defeat 1A from lower story?

 

[Ionliosite]

Totally, story density allows such scenarios. You don't even need to be on another layer to perceive another storyteller as fiction, you just need higher story density.

 

[Siperri123]

computer gods <great network <a single-celled organism <a layer. Great network contain information structures that go beyond the dimension of computer gods. Thats why i need a quote for this type of stuff which people will try to parrott as a fact. Though DarkLk will comment soon but i do inherently want a quote whether great network containing structures beyomd dimensions. Though "dimensions" needs more congext whether its talking about spatial or just plain old universes
Dimensions in Daimaou always mean universes. The equivalent of what we call dimension on the site is called layer.

I mean layers in the universe of archetypes, it is superior the universe of computer gods and their great network, That is the higher plane of existence.

 

[Siperri123]

But at no point are they shown to create universes, and aside from pocket dimensions of unknown size, all universe known were created by either Akuto, the Extra-universal Gods or TLOI.

you continue to be wrong, akuto also rewrites the world in the form of information like computer gods but akuto's story has a higher density, he exists on a higher plane of existence. "Yeah," agreed Brave. "I get it. We all died and were resurrected. But it was the demon king that resurrected us."

"That is how I understand it. The world has been reconstructed as data. Just as the former computer gods attempted to do."

"Then why did he erase it and try to redo it? If he's on the level of a god, why didn't he accept the world he created?"

"Based on his words, I assume it be because that was a world of an eternal ending."

 

[Antvasima]

Please stop quoting long posts.

 

[Siperri123]

they try to convert humanity and the real world into data and recreate the universe (via Tloi) and step up to a higher story density, with a higher story density, they will survive as a single-celled organismin the base layer.

 

[Ionliosite]

You said it yourself, they try, but they are unable to. Why would they need Bouchirou doing that weird ritual with Keena in Volume 5 if they could just do that by themselves?

 

[Hykuu]

Well, since there are infinite possible stories and scenarios, that would include one where they succeded, right?

 

[Antvasima]

Hopefully DarkLK is going to respond soon, so we can proceed.

 

[Siperri123]

Do you really read and study the ichiban daimaou verse carefully?. I was well aware. That was why I attempted to complete the ceremony before he could act."

Bouichirou had attempted to exchange vows with the Law of Identity. At the time, they had not understood why his ultimate objective was to send mankind to another universe as thought entities, but it made a sort sense now. "But aniki would be able to…"

"Be able to what?"

The look in Bouichirou's eyes grew sharp.

Despite his confusion, Hiroshi was not going to let go of his theory.

"He…might be able to do a better job of it."

Bouichirou once again shook his head.

"You only think that because the Law of Identity chose him."

"Chose him?"

"The Law if Identity is the world's storyteller. That means we cannot escape what has been said of us no matter what. That is why I attempted to exchange vows with the Law of Identity and have the story of the world changed. In other words, I chose to have us shifted to another universe."

"You mean there is no third option?" asked Hiroshi in confusion.

"There is not," said Bouichirou with a nod. "Think about what has happened in this world of the afterlife. Why were we able to meet? Was that not because it was convenient for the Law of Identity? Doesn't it seem like a sort of plot convenience? This 'aniki' of yours, Sai Akuto, hated the stories that the people blindly believed in, but hasn't he carried out the role of the protagonist in the story revolving around the Law of Identity? Can he truly escape that? Even in the afterlife, we are merely being forced into some sort of role or another. How are we to escape from the story that has been told of us? How are we to escape this eerie story structure?"

 

[Siperri123]

I know that too. To avoid that, you said the demon king and the Law of Identity had to exchange vows, right? I didn't really get what you meant, though."

"Yes, but I never accomplished it."

Hiroshi nodded as he thought back on his memories.

"I understand that much. To be saved by the Law of Identity, Zero and the machine gods tried to turn mankind into data just like them and then send them to another universe. That way it would not matter if mankind was destroyed. And it was aniki ― the current demon king ― who gave us some extra time."

 

[Siperri123]

because they cannot escape the role they have in the story Tloi created.In all the worlds, the world of humanity, the world of archetypes, even the new law of identity like hiroshi cannot overcome the role they have in the story.only anti-universe is beyond all the roles and limited of the story.Brave asked despite knowing the answer.

"Exactly." Bouichirou nodded. "That is undoubtedly your role."

"My role? So I have to work for the sake of someone's plot? Why?"

"In this world…no, that is not a good way of putting it. In any world, there is no one with free will. Even you are doing this because you desire the result that will satisfy you, but those thoughts are in line with the 'story'. What is happiness? If your stomach is full and a member of the opposite sex stands beside you, then you are satisfied. Even if that member of the opposite sex dies, the feeling of loss will not last too long. It does not create a gap that cannot be filled by another. Even those who seek out the finest foods despite their full stomach will settle for the food nearby when their stomach grows empty. There is no difference between biological satisfaction and happiness. If it were not for the 'story', that is. Many things are given value in a religious way: love, bloodline, success, one's view of life, etc. But in a purely biological perspective, such things should not be given value. Stories support the human intellect, but they also infect it like a virus."

 

[Siperri123]

Your question is no different than asking why akuto is trying to go to another universe when he can create everything in his world, but he could not escape the world of Tloi.

 

[Siperri123]

Even the infinite layers in a story you tell are still missing, they not only perceive the lower layers as illusions, the lower layers also exist inside the higher layer creatures, you can call the higher layer the larger cardinal number.

 

[Siperri123]

all archetypes transcend all of the story levels, but akuto and the archetypes created and took over a story of their own, depending on the density of their story.

 

[DarkLK]

I don't quite understand what kind of 2-A terminal we are talking about. As far as I remember, it was directly said that the terminal of God was the size of a small continent.

Also about the computer gods. This is not about giving them 1-A (although this is not something impossible in my opinion). We are talking about the fact that the description of the internal structure of a story (even in the ordinary world) is not limited to three-dimensional reality, but may include the cardinality, literally infinite degrees of infinity and beyond dimensional informational structures transcendental to it. The gods have such informational bodies, but they are limited in terms of influencing reality, and even such volumes of information are still inferior even to a single-celled creature from a story with a higher degree, from the perspective of which the whole lower world is just a fiction.

You can have a hierarchy of such stories, then archetypes that have such hierarchies within themselves, and stories with these archetypes and storytellers as characters.

Then there will be the so-called world of the Law of Identity, which is transcendental to any hierarchies of the archetypal stories. Only afterlife Akuto and Brave are here with their own resources. Akuto can invite others there, even the entire hierarchy of archetypes, if he wants to. Brave... Well, he has the same degree of a story, but he has no ability to manipulate lower stories. Whether to give him a high tier ... I do not know. Technically, it has such power, but does not have an obvious possibility of its implementation. The same applies to creatures from the anti-universe. He is simply the inhabitants of God. Transcendental to everything else, but in their world they are just normal beings.

PS

I understand what Siperri123 is talking about, and I agree with most.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation DarkLK.

I would appreciate if everybody help out to improve out IUND page based on his analysis.

 

[Siperri123]

I mean the alternate dimension that protects their terminal, which is part of the data stored on the quantum network, act 7 described it as infinite 4-dimensional space.

 

[Siperri123]

ah sry, I reread act 5 and it is just an a pseudo alternate dimension, not a real alternate dimension in the universe of mankind, so my fault.

 

[Ionliosite]

Also about the computer gods. This is not about giving them 1-A (although this is not something impossible in my opinion). We are talking about the fact that the description of the internal structure of a story (even in the ordinary world) is not limited to three-dimensional reality, but may include the cardinality, literally infinite degrees of infinity and beyond dimensional informational structures transcendental to it. The gods have such informational bodies, but they are limited in terms of influencing reality, and even such volumes of information are still inferior even to a single-celled creature from a story with a higher degree, from the perspective of which the whole lower world is just a fiction.

So you're saying the Computer Gods has High 1-B/1-A info manip? Because that's what I understood the first time I read the quote I posted above, but I honestly started doubting it as soon as Akuto continued with his constant refutals to the gods actually having any kind of reality altering powers.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation DarkLK.

I would appreciate if everybody help out to improve out IUND page based on his analysis.

Is anybody willing to cooperate with DarkLK and DontTalkDT to improve on our Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou profiles?

 

[Siperri123]

Also about the computer gods. This is not about giving them 1-A (although this is not something impossible in my opinion). We are talking about the fact that the description of the internal structure of a story (even in the ordinary world) is not limited to three-dimensional reality, but may include the cardinality, literally infinite degrees of infinity and beyond dimensional informational structures transcendental to it. The gods have such informational bodies, but they are limited in terms of influencing reality, and even such volumes of information are still inferior even to a single-celled creature from a story with a higher degree, from the perspective of which the whole lower world is just a fiction.

You can have a hierarchy of such stories, then archetypes that have such hierarchies within themselves,

Will be many people who misunderstand the hierarchical structure of ideological entities, because even the lowest story in the hierarchy is transcendent to the entire world of humanity, the weakest creature in the second high story is also transcendent with the lower story.

 

[Siperri123]

This is a hierarchy of fictions in the fictions of a archetype, like the positive and negative sides of the story.

"In that case, unreasonable death is a natural thing. No reason is needed to kill. That would explain it."

"Nevertheless, we avoid meaningless killing."

"Avoidance of killing is due to the stories, yet you claimed the stories were the cause of mass murder."

Bouichirou's words caused Akuto to think once more and he summoned someone else.

He waved his hand toward the horizon and a muscular man with dark skin walked from that distant horizon.

It was Marine. He had once ruled the Republic, wielded the Formless Power, and fought Akuto. He had not wished for it, but he had caused the destruction of the world.

"I feel like I was called here to represent an ideology and it annoys me a little."

Just like the other summoned ghosts, Marine started by complaining.

"It seems like ghosts are always complaining to me," said Akuto with a shrug.

"Of course they are. You killed us. But you at least had the courage to face me without fearing criticism. I'll grant you that."

Marine gave a hearty laugh and did not hesitate to sit in one of the chairs.

"Since you're my ghost, that might count as self-praise," complained Akuto.

"Don't worry about it," said Marine. "Both humans and ghosts cannot distinguish themselves from others."

"Yes. That is exactly why I think we hesitate to kill. If we truly viewed ourselves as distinct, humans would have no laws outside of the biological ones."

"That is a positive side to the stories. Others exist inside us as ghosts and our love for that fact leads us to avoid preying on and killing them. Reproduction and dividing must hold the advantage."

Marine looked at Akuto as if to ask him if he finally understood.

"But I view you as a manifestation of the negative side." Akuto looked back at Marine. "That is why you are here."

"This could easily revert to a rudimentary argument. The state of ghosts creates others. The ghosts of the Republic's people are persecuted by the ghosts of the imperial people. Pointing that out as an illusion is to cast aside the positive side."

Marine's reply was decisive and Akuto grimaced as if it had hit him where it hurt.

"I see. So I was the type to throw out the positive side along with the negative side."

 

[Siperri123]

or the difference between each incarnation, I will take an example of akuto, yamato, brave when compared to Tloi, the difference between each incarnation is immeasurable, the higher beings are the absurd existence irational to the lower creatures. "I see. So a concept is a concept."

"I do understand what you're saying, though. The only ones given an incarnation in the Law of Identity's world are you and me. Wouldn't incarnation be the best term for being equal concepts before the creator? So in your world, the people inside are equally given an incarnation."

"I may be the creator here, but I don't feel like a god. What I can feel is that stories are binding us. Even when I create worlds, I am only free in which story I choose and to what degree I take that story. In the end, I want to destroy that and escape this world." Hiroshi sliced off a piece of peach flesh and carried it to his mouth with the knife.

"Is there really something I can do?" asked Akuto.

"If you feel bad, it means you can at least feel responsibility," immediately replied Hiroshi. "The people inside you are nothing but pawns, but you don't view them that way."

Akuto gasped.

"That's right. My responsibility extends beyond you. There are also the ghosts of former personalities. When you get down to it, I'm the ruler of ghosts."

He bit into the peach as if he suddenly remembered he held it.

"What I'm saying is that you can summon ghosts."

"Ghosts, hm? If I do that, I may be able to learn what my mistakes were and understand this world."

 

[Siperri123]

Age isn't everything. You did look like an adult before, though."

"When I was fixated on the Law of Identity, you carried out a betrayal."

"Did you bring me here to criticize me?" She smiled. "At any rate, I did what was right."

"What was right?" Akuto's eyebrows rose. "How was that right? All you did was obey the computer gods and attempt to raise your social status in the real world."

"I don't feel bad about doing that." Eiko looked angry. "Even if the world was going to be destroyed, it was going to happen after my generation. I was going to enjoy my life and leave a decent society to the next generation. If the destruction is so far away, what else could I do? If you and I had been reformed, Bouichirou and I would have been able to travel to the future."

"You were trying to control society. You even tried to change the gods' data to trick the people."

"And what's wrong with that? You're too arrogant. Right now, you're treating the people as a single whole. The people, the masses, the populace, the citizenry, or whatever you want to call them. At the very least, they've faded into the background. With this afterlife, you should have realized that you too are controlling all the fools. You thought about giving them a religion to control them."

Akuto fell silent.

"You're the same. I may not have known the truth of some distant future, but you did the same thing when you were given an eternity of time."

"You're right." Akuto squeezed out the words. "It is the same thing."

"Just like you, I had no religious belief. Just like you, I looked down on those who did not think for themselves. The reason you didn't join me was because you ultimately believed the end of the world was coming and that someone had created the world. You actually did have faith. Faith in something irrational."

Eiko rebuked Akuto.

All of her words were convincing to him and he could only sink further down in his chair. Just like Bouichirou, he had believed in the Law of Identity.