I find the Defendent Hercule Satan, Guilty!

[Buttersamuri]

Hercule has been taken to court by Phoenix for attacking Miles. And The Judge finds Hercule guilty of the charges. Hercule tries to make it seem like the judge is corrupted and goes to attack him.

Takes place in the courtrooom

Full arsenal

Both are willing to kill

Who wins and why?

Not the judge from OFF:

The Devil: 3

Inconclusive/Draw

 

[XitSign]

You're really doing your best to get some fights on the board for ol Udgey, aren't you? Can't blame you though, I rather like the old judge myself, it's nice to fill up his page a bit.

However, this time around, I have pretty much no good news for our judge, Mr Satan has almost every advantage here.

First of all, the differance in AP comes out to about x7.483 in Mr. Satan's favor, literially a hair's breath away from one-shot territory.

Arsenal is a little iffy on who actually has the advantage, since the AA evidence list is so huge and we're assuming that Udgey has the whole evidence room at his disposal now, but even then, while the Judge may very well have MORE gear to work with, he doesn't seem to have any types of weapons and gear Mr Satan doesn't, and Satan's also packing things like his Jet-Pack, allowing for him to make use of the air. We might be inside, but the courtroom is big enough for an arieal advanatage to actually be used.

But something that is for SURE an advantage for Mr. Satan is his stamina and skill. Mr. Satan, despite all the gags and shadiness from time to time, is a legitiment martial artist with a lot of experience and training under his belt, not to meantion a lot of actual use with his extended collection of gear and weapons. The Judge has no known combat experience, and his gear is almost all evidence that he's handled but very rarely ever uses. Mr. Satan is a skilled combatant with a full understanding of his arsenal, so much so he can actually be pretty clever and deceptive with some of it.

Mr. Satan should probably take this without much of a struggle. He's just so much stronger, more durable, and is more expienced with his gear and actual hand-to-hand combat, the Judge has pretty much no advantage over THE CHAMP.

 

[Buttersamuri]

I see some issues with this testimony. And I wish to cross examine.




"First of all, the differance in AP comes out to about x7.483 in Mr. Satan's favor, literially a hair's breath away from one-shot territory."


Examining Mr Satans power level. It shows his best feat to be 651,175 Joules. Where Udgey actually scales to a feat that was around 1,650,472 Joule. A feat which was also caused with indirect force. Meaning that the main level of power should be a lot higher. But even keeping it there. It does contridict Mr Satan Being stronger. And go back this up.

TAKE THAT

The very accepted feat itself to back up this claim. This gives even at its absolute weakest a 2.534605904710715 Gap in power and durability. Which as brought up before. Is an at least thanks to it coming from an indirect power feat


"Arsenal is a little iffy on who actually has the advantage, since the AA evidence list is so huge and we're assuming that Udgey has the whole evidence room at his disposal now, but even then, while the Judge may very well have MORE gear to work with, he doesn't seem to have any types of weapons and gear Mr Satan doesn't, and Satan's also packing things like his Jet-Pack, allowing for him to make use of the air. We might be inside, but the courtroom is big enough for an arieal advanatage to actually be used."


While it is indeed true The Judge and Mr Satan have similar Arsenal in mostly their main general weapons like guns and swords. The Judges set of Arsenal is going to be a bit harder to predict and a bit more vast. Holding several forms and types of guns and swords that can easily switch up in.and likely much more. There have been several guns used in different cases as well as swords and spears. Revolvers, Berretas, Stage Pistols, Ect. It's likely The Judge will be more equipped than Mr Satan. As we don't see him carry more than one type of the same gun (example several different pistols like the judge does). And he does get access to a whip as well, As well things he might not see coming like a blade that is hidden inside of a staff, and the judge holds a variety of different types of blades for different results in fighting. And a Jetpack while definitely usable in the courthouse. Isn't a good thing to be using against a gun. Or a several form of guns. He would have to be on a constant move to have a chance not to be hit by Said pistol. As well. He has nowhere to hide in the air unlike the Judge who would have several places to take cover. And flying in his courthouse is funny enough not something new. In the case brought up in the anime involving the circus. He actually does witness people flying around In the courtroom (though by strings). He also has such things as The fog Machine which would completely ruin an advantage from the sky as making it impossible for Hercule to see him. The judge should have a much vaster and wider variety in attacks and a counter to something he doesn't have like the Jetpack


"But something that is for SURE an advantage for Mr. Satan is his stamina and skill. Mr. Satan, despite all the gags and shadiness from time to time, is a legitiment martial artist with a lot of experience and training under his belt, not to meantion a lot of actual use with his extended collection of gear and weapons. The Judge has no known combat experience, and his gear is almost all evidence that he's handled but very rarely ever uses. Mr. Satan is a skilled combatant with a full understanding of his arsenal, so much so he can actually be pretty clever and deceptive with some of it."


I do agree that Mr Satan holds the skills, Experience, and training. No doubt. But The judge at his peak is actually quite intelligent. Much like Mr Satan. Even at his best, Phoenix made a comment about him being smart all of a sudden. And that comes from a guy who has gone against a country and won a case when the guy had amnesia. And he is smart enough to understand what he is using. Not only does he have the advantage in understanding his evidence as having it explained to him before in the cases they are used in. He already seemed to understand the basics at least for such a thing like a Gun. Meaning while he definitely isn't as experience, or as skilled as Mr Satan. He is smart in his own right, and would definitely know the Arsenal he is using. While alone this doesn't counteract the disadvantage in skill and experience. It is an important piece to come into play with the other evidence. So Mr Satan does hold better and more experience and skill. But the Judge holds a much more variety Arsenal, with a good enough understanding to use most of it properly, and likely a previous understanding beforehand. As well should be vastly stronger and tougher thanks to the scaling to power feat that is more than twice Hercules power which was also caused by indirect force. Meaning the direct force itself would be much stronger.


I was trying to get Judge fights for a while by recently upgraded him. This was made a bit before it. Beforehand they were a bit more on the same level in power.

 

[XitSign]

I was unaware of the upgrade, actually, so that is my bad.

However, I don't think any of these really controdict the point that Mr. Satan is just better prepared for this fight all around. Udgey is inteligent, despite being a bit foolish, I will never deny that. But just being inteligent doesn't compare to having an actual understanding and regular use of thier gear, and Hercule has so much more actual combat applicable experience over Udgey, who has none that we know of. Not to mention, Hercule has a history of being deceptively clever, pulling sneaky moves, and making use of misdirection and trickery ontop of his genuinely impressive skill and knowlage as a fighter.

Even if we argue the evidence is truly a better arsenal, Udgey's just not as ready to use it and use it effectively in a fight with someone who actually knows what he's doing. Simply HAVING options isn't enough when you have no experience to back it up.

While Udgey now shockingly holds the AP advantage, it's not a level of advantage that can't be overwhelmed in a regular fight. And Hercule still severally outskills and outexperiences the good Judge. Plus things like flight are still on the table despite your counterpoints. Just because people have made use of the large airspace of the court means Udgey is familiar with the idea, but not exactly that he's prepared to FIGHT in that condition. And just because a ranged option is useful against a flying enemy neglects that Satan also has ranged options and Udgey only has an understanding of the firearms, but a lack of known experience being an effective shot. Plus...the smoke machine will probably hamper his own senses, and with his bad hearing that's TWO senses that will be a less effective should he pull that route. The Jetpack still has a tangiable advantage in the courtroom due to the Satan actually being skilled with it and his other weapons and Udgey falling a bit behind.

My vote hasn't changed, it's not as easy now since the Judge isn't going down as easily as the original calc put him, but he's so outskilled I don't think his toughness is an issue.

Also, while it's funny...please don't do that kind of response again. Quoting everything I said already makes the post huge, but adding the gifs makes it even needlessly bigger.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Yea. The upgrade was rather recent so I get why. I have been watching pages closely to make people get aware of it.

"But just being intelligent doesn't compare to having an actual understanding and regular use of thier gear, and Hercule has so much more actual combat applicable experience over Udgey, who has none that we know of. Not to mention, Hercule has a history of being deceptively clever, pulling sneaky moves, and making use of misdirection and trickery ontop of his genuinely impressive skill and knowledge as a fighter."

I do agree he doesn't have as much fighting skill as Hercule thanks to no combat knowledge that we know of. But like i brought up before. Udgey does have a good understanding on guns and swords. Not only does he seem to have a general knowing even before his cases, like when he explained the workings of Ballistic markings, but he would also know fairly well these weapons just through the sheer amount of cases where he would learn about such weapons and how they were used or in certain ways of using them. He will understand how to use them. And much like you bring up Hercule being clever, so has the Judge. He also thanks to his strong sense of justice, wouldn't be swayed by Hercule. Even when the threat of a bomb going off was happening, he didn't leave the courtroom until a verdict had been reached and makes note it just wouldn't do if a Judge chose to Run. So that definitely shows he isn't backing down from Hercule. And he isn't likely tricking Udgey. Who generally is consistently much smarter than Hercule. Not that Hercule isn't smart. Just Hercule actually tricking the judge would be very difficult. Hercules attitude is not one The Judge would put up with. He has been swayed by people like Franziska or Miles easier because they are geniuses who have deceived evidence and skills to put convincing stories together. But without such evidence, or skills to such a level, he isn't gonna be letting himself be manipulated by someone like Hercule. Hercules attitude would more likely aggravate the Judge, as he has shown to get very aggravated with Shannigins and things that waste his time. I won't argue the fighting skill advantage however. As I brought up above, this is something I do agree he is at a disadvantage at.


"While Udgey now shockingly holds the AP advantage, it's not a level of advantage that can't be overwhelmed in a regular fight. And Hercule still severally outskills and outexperiences the good Judge. Plus things like flight are still on the table despite your counterpoints. Just because people have made use of the large airspace of the court means Udgey is familiar with the idea, but not exactly that he's prepared to FIGHT in that condition."

He is at the very least a little over two and a half times stronger and tougher than Hercule. An at least as the feat was done from indirect power. Basically the direct power indirectly cause this level of destruction. It's likely quite a bit higher. But that's still a decent Power and durability advantage. And The Judge isn't going to be fully surprised about Hercule flying and would know a Gun would handle a flying target. It's an easy thing to put together. It may surprise him a bit, but it's not a situation he doesn't have the weapons to handle. A gun handles that situation well. Remember like I brought up before. Hercule has failed to dodge gunfire in his past and it took him down when getting a good hit in his chest. One hit is all The Judge will need.

"And just because a ranged option is useful against a flying enemy neglects that Satan also has ranged options and Udgey only has an understanding of the firearms, but a lack of known experience being an effective shot."

And as I brought up before. Thanks to him being in the air. This actually worsens his case. Because he wouldn't have anywhere to hide. Unlike The Judge who has several areas to take cover. And would be able to dodge a bullet coming his way thanks to past reactions like how he reacted to the end of a whip, and scales to Phoenix who dodged the whip, and his brother reacted and dodged the whip as well. Plus a few other characters actually dodge it too like Dick Gumshoe. While their speed is equal. The speed of their weapons is different. Hercule hasn't reacted and dodged something that could hit bullet speed, while the judge has. Udgey has a good enough knowing on how to use them. And tho a lack of experience using them may effect him, he doesn't need much understanding on how to shoot someone. He isn't trying to tag someone who can react and dodge gunfire. If he pulls that trigger in time with his aim at Hercule. Then he is tagging him. Where if Hercule tried to shoot at the judge, he would have issues on firing while flying, as well The Judge being able to react and dodge, and actually places to get cover.

"Plus...the smoke machine will probably hamper his own senses, and with his bad hearing that's TWO senses that will be a less effective should he pull that route."

Ahh. Yea. Ok fair enough.


"The Jetpack still has a tangiable advantage in the courtroom due to the Satan actually being skilled with it and his other weapons and Udgey falling a bit behind."

Debatable on its advantage. It's an advantage and disadvantage. As I had brought up before with leaving himself wide open for attacks. If the judge just spam fired the trigger at Hercules direction. He would likely tag him. He could maybe dodge one shot he keep his eye on the judge and where he aims. But repeated fire is probably going to either tag him or scare him back to the ground. Where if physically combat came. The judge is much stronger and tougher, with an extended range of weapons, and while lacking in the skill department. He takes Hercule down via being too hard to tag, if tagged, he could tank a lot of Hercules attacks, and his manipulation isn't likely working.

It leaves The Judge with Reaction speeds, Strenght, durability, and intelligence advatage

While Hercule holds a Skill, experience, and mobility advantage. But that third advatage is also a disadvantage because of the lack of defense he would have. Would be harder to tag the judge who would be hard to tag in the first place

 

[Jackythejack]

This is dumb. Hercule has skill and experience by the dozen to the point that the AP advantage doesn't really mean much in the slightest. I don't even think it's double? Could be wrong I don't know the exact AP advantage. Judge has never been in a fight so he wouldn't know what to do and would be far more reluctant at using anything that could be lethal force. Satan has a variety of weapons that he could use at his full arsenal including guns and explosives that are at a higher tier than himself and because of this he should be able to overcome that durability or AP advantage which shouldn't be that high in the first place to my knowledge.

The judge has never fired a gun before. Saying that he'd be able to shoot down a mobile Hercule in a Jetpack that he knows how to use is both ridiculous and honestly rather wank. Considering that the judge has never been in a gunfight he still wouldn't know what to do or how to efficiently avoid the bullets (ignoring the fact that outside of speed equalized this may or may not be a blitz). Satan can literally just keep flying around with his Jetpack and the judge would have too poor accuracy to actually be able to hit him.

Just AP advantage, now that I look at it, can easily be worked around either way, so that doesn't mean squat. Enough skill can easily get rid of someone who is not even three times stronger. Satan knows his way around a fight. These advantages are hardly advantages.

 

[Iceassassin25]

Mr satan for the reasons above

 

[Andytrenom]

"First of all, the differance in AP comes out to about x7.483 in Mr. Satan's favor, literially a hair's breath away from one-shot territory."

Dude you know that a 0.007 difference isn't a meanigful departure from the actual number in the slightest right? This is very much one shot territory and suggesting it isn't is ignoring something obvious in favour of pure technicality

 

[Jackythejack]

"First of all, the differance in AP comes out to about x7.483 in Mr. Satan's favor, literially a hair's breath away from one-shot territory."
Dude you know that a 0.007 difference isn't a meanigful departure from the actual number in the slightest right? This is very much one shot territory and suggesting it isn't is ignoring something obvious in favour of pure technicality

Pretty sure that's actuwlly debunked. That's not the ap difference.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Actually. Gotta object. He wasn't aware of the update on their power. Ace Attorney recently got a feat which gave a little over 2.5 gap in power in the judges favor.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Also. Jacky. Just so ya know the exact numbers. Cause I saw ya say you don't think it's double

Satan is 651,175 Joules.

The Judge is at least 1,650,472 Joules

Which is a 2.53 power advantage.

 

[Andytrenom]

I actually noticed that just before seeing your comment lol. But still, it would be good to note that "Anything up to a point fraction of 7.5x is fair and as soon as it becomes exactly 7.5x it's a stomp" isn't how it works

 

[Jackythejack]

Yeah I saw that.

Also another thread

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3148611

 

[Buttersamuri]

Yea. If it's getting into that territory. It's basically a stomp.

If the AP Gets to 7.4 advatage. That's a one shot. Especially the degree of that level

Howsntly, I think I need to reconsider some Judge fights. I went in excited and didn't even know that AP differnece. Won't lie, got really excited that Udgey had a page under my making. When I first made this thread. That was accurate stomp in power. Gonna stop making Judge fights for now until I get my other two feats checked out and hopefully accepted and finally take a break from Researching Ace Attorney. Leave them at the tier I have always seen them at

 

[Buttersamuri]

Yeah I saw that.

Also another thread

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3148611

DANG YOU!! Fallouts my favorite game... but so is ace Attorney. I'm so conflicted.

 

[XitSign]

Trust me, I didn't think that a fraction of a differance in AP was what tipped the scales from 'one-shot' to 'fair'

I just found it really funny to point out that the differance (for the original AA AP calc at least) came out to almost that 7.5 magic number.

Honestly I just wanted to debate every possible trait of the two, despite that differance, to be as conclusive as possible and because the debate intereted me...which, good thing that I did, because I completely neglected that new upgrade...whoopsies.

But I think the argument is still sound in Satan's favor here, Udgey's just not ready for this, even if he's surprisingly stronger.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Well. Udgey may get a stronger buff anyway. I'm speaking right now about buffs that two feats are gonna make consistent.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Eh, Hercule FRA.

 

[Tots_Real]

Hercule FRA.

 

[Straika]

Hercule for reasons above. Damn he has so many victories on his page!

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Satan fra

 

[TheArsenal1212]

Satan FRA

Also guys I got another Satan match here if you wanna check it out: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3153890

 

[Buttersamuri]

Didn't he already fight 007 before