HxH specifically

[Edwellken]

Look... contrary to whatever you might think I didn't come here to prove anything... I came to provide the full context and expand upon it with scans that you conveniently left out. How people decide to interpret this information is up to them, but I've provided all of the material necessary to do so. Hence repeating the scans that were already here. I wanted to give the FULL context.

I have neither the time nor energy to argue about it, but your own interpretation relies on the preconceived assumption that your existing idea of Nen is correct. But I guess you'll just keep ignoring the constantly repeated fact that Ten is an actual technique with actual effects so whatever.

And again, as I've stated repeatedly... If a verse or character has shown the ability to block attacks such as Ren with their aura, that's all that was needed. There's no further controversy here on my part. DB has more than proven it has this ability.

Anyway, as long as the decision is made with all of the relevant information provided, and not just the scans that support a single argument, I'm fine with whatever decision people come to.

 

[Amexim]

Ok cool. I... Already... Gave... Enough information... So, I don't know why you're being rude about it. No one said it wasn't an actual technique, we said it's not unique. Or special. Breathing can be called a technique, but everyone breathes. The misconception we got from you was that you thought there was some special trick to the technique that made it different from anything in fiction enough that other verses couldn't or likely wouldn't replicate it.

But if you're done, then, all we have to do is wait for AKM or Cal to clarify that they agree with the conclusions came to and restate them for Ant, and then we can remove the resistances to these affects or put a note on them as clarified in the beginning, and we're done.

 

[Edwellken]

I literally said how it could be replicated in my first post on the thread though...

The trick... if you want to call something so simple a "trick", is that you need to have shown the ability to block aura/energy/whatever to block Ren. That's all I wanted to clarify from the very beginning. If you want to specify that they have the resistance to "aura based" effects of this type specifically when using Ten, that's 100% agreeable.

 

[Amexim]

Yeah that's a good specification.

 

[Amexim]

And oh holy shit! You did! I'm sorry Ed, it was a combination of your name and Emperor's both starting with E and looking the same and saying you didn't read anything which caused me to confuse you two as one at times and me misinterpreting you saying "The ability to block Ren" as you saying the same as Emperor, who wanted them to display the ability to block emotions— I assumed you/Emperor viewed Ren as synonymous with Emotion attacks, so you used that as a shorthand noun for it. And then when you said as much in your next post, "to defend against emotional attacks" I thought you wanted the parties in question to be able to block emotional attacks with their defenses rather than Aura/energy regardless of the fact that it may or may not contain malice. My apologies!

 

[Edwellken]

Ah

I was literally typing up my own apology for coming off as aggressive earlier so this is weird.

It's okay. I actually misinterpreted the initial purpose of the thread myself so it's also kind of my own fault.

 

[Amexim]

Nah nah we both silly and sorry so we're cool!

 

[Antvasima]

@AKM sama

So what are the conclusions here?

^

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

"This thread became cancer... how did we get to DBS and Jiren?"

On examples of verses that can block other aura.

"And again, as I've stated repeatedly... If a verse or character has shown the ability to block attacks such as Ren with their aura, that's all that was needed"

This is what I've said on multiple occassions. Though I disagree DB has that ability with regular aura then using Jiren as an example when he's the only one to create barriers. Also do you mind giving me quotes of me saying nen blocks emotion because I said this verbatim.

It doesn't nullify emotions and doesn't need to. It blocks the effects of intangible nen that emotions of malice have been projected on attempted to be forced onto you, this isn't complex I agree it's basic.

So emotions is just another sign of your incompetence that you somehow completely extrapolate my argument into something else entirely. Stop misrepresenting my argument it's getting boring.

 

[Amexim]

Ok that's enough.

First of all, if you agreed with this position, which not even I, nor no one here believes, what was all this for?

Second of all, cut the crap. You deny every bit of hard evidence thrown at you, and not only that, but you can't even provide scans of your idea being actually viable. You don't even recognize what you are saying yourself. Your statements mean that every verse that defends needs to be able to block emotional affects in the exact same way Ten does, and that energy somehow has to be able to stop "intangible Nen" from flowing through it, despite Nen not even demonstrating the ability to go through Auras.

So, not only do you deny consistently the premise we have been speaking of, since you're back for no other reason than to be a disgusting troglodyte who can't even keep his word and stay out of something you find "boring", but you make claims without being able to support evidence, deny evidence that directly refutes and DEBUNKS your "counter arguments", and attempt to redefine everything just to look smart, when half of the time you were asking for feats of Auras blocking emotional attacks in the first place.

You literally said that the only thing you'd accept, before we got into other things, is that the aura that is from the other verses has to prove it can defend against emotional attacks and intangible Nen, and that first one isn't even done by HxH itself, and the second one is meaningless. Can you go away?

 

[Amexim]

Oh, and here is you saying exactly what you say you don't believe.

"Ten is a defense against malicious aura or aura that has bad emotions projected into it to cause certain effects such as breaking minds, paralysis and even death to clarify. Yes it's in an animanga but some aspects of it differ to the energies in other animanga."

"My claim is to clarify the ability of nen to create a barrier to defend against other displays of nen which can cause those specific effects are VERSE SPECIFIC. Only nen creates a barrier like that in shounen. No verse's aura has every been shown to block in the same way nen does. If so show me multiple examples. They need an actual barrier to block the intagible nen not just a display of aura."

You specifically specify that Ten is a specific defense against malicious aura that has bad emotions projected into it, and your standard for evidence that other verses can block these affects are that they also block aura that have the same effects— that they have aura that can block energy that has bad emotions projected into it. You say "those effects" referring again to the emotional attacks. Your standard, again, according to you earlier TODAY, is that we need to find auras thst block other auras with emotional effects in them, meaning that you must think Ten somehow targets the emotions in some way and specifically defends against them, otherwise, how is the emotions existing in the aura relevant— and your second garbage headcanon that it needs to handle "intangible Nen", or else it will somehow do something it's never done before in the verse itself and go through their auras.... And we already debunked you on all of these.

There's no way I can interpret this to mean anything other than the exact opposite of what your disrespectful ass that both refuses to read yet has no life enough to waste time being ridiculously disrespectful and instigating a fight with me, as if you own the whole damn wiki. You're pathetic.

 

[Amexim]

Ant, I'm sorry. If you want me to summarize the conclusions for you, I can. I don't know where AKM is, but if you want him to summarize them, that's fine too.

 

[Antvasima]

You can politely ask him to comment here again via his message wall if you wish.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Reply to first post: I'm the one who introduced the position in the first place which you tried and failed to combat. Don't be mentally defective. My position from the start was that most auras don't interact in the same way as nen and it needs to be displayed. This point was made against the notion that any vetse with basic aura can defend it which i debunked.

I refute every trashy evidence you have yes and it wss for a subpoint anyway. Which concerned if DB could defend it. I provided scans proving nen was intangible and the defense I was talking about that not all auras display. Many of your refutes were terrible and irrelevant also making many assumptions which I don't have to waste my time on. I never stated they have to block emotional effects. Please quote where I said that because that's a positive claim and another strawman. If you don't I'll just use burden of rejoinder. I never said intagibility was relevant in the case the other aura was intangible, it was relevant because it makes tangible auras irrelevant. Seems like I need to spell it out for you. Nen is intangible so why would tangible defences be relevant? In the case of intangible auras, If another aura cannot block other auras why would nen not ignore it? Like I said many auras don't act as a defence so to say I need to prove nen can go through auras is idiotic.

I introduced the premise and stood by it whilst you changed from "All aura can defend" to "They need to show defence but most have it" you're just strawmanning me over and over which is why I knew we should've debating on discord so I can tell you without your cover of irrelevant paragraphs.

I refuted evidence, yes you mentally impaired individual. Having evidence doesn't mean you're right. A new revelation for you? Evidence can be refuted and debunked. Which I did explicitly for the DB subpoint and you didn't post anything for the main point. So don't act like you posted any relevant evidence for the main point.

I said it had to be able to defend against other auras, not the effects. Don't misrepresent me. I don't know how many times i must it for you to comprehend. You can try and interpret my points in impossible ways to strawman it won't work. I'll go away when you stop lying about my points.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Reply to the second post: First quote: Yes Ten defends against aura that causes those listed effects what of it? And yes some aspects differ like in some verses aura acts as a protection, in others like DB it's a flashy glow thay does nothing protection wise. This quote means exactly what I've been saying since the start. In fact your main point in the OP is that Ten doesn't defend against those effects which I AGREED with before saying not all verse auras act as a defense. Now I look at this and what you're claiming I said and I'm honestly baffled at how badly you strawmaned me.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Second quote: Yes nen can act as barrier to defend against other displays. That's what I said was verse specific. Which it is as I've said before and I'll say it again. Not every verse aura acts as a barrier. Second bit is true, no verse shpws defense the same way barring Bleach and other verses that actually have aura defenses with just aura. Just some verses just the flair of aura signals a powerup and that's it. Which is what I meant by the last bit. I'll refute your strawman interpretation later.

 

[WHYNAUT]

What's currently being discussed?

What happened with Ed applies to me as well by the way. I guess I misunderstood the purpose of this thread.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Nothing but me correcting someone lying about my initial point that auras in general don't necessarily have defences like ten does. He's saying my whole point was they need a defence against emotional attacks when that isn't at all what I said.

The main purpose of the thread was to remove resistances from, HxH characters because their ten defends them from the other aura.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Response to strawman: Listen, me saying the aura has specific effects does not at all correlate to "They need to be able to defend the effects specifically" they just need to be able to block other auras which I argued was a unique thing and not prevalent in many verses which you ended up agreeing with and moving on to that DB subpoint, the only time you provided evidence btw and also saying many verses can blocks auras which I asked you to list multiple times. I refuted everything you listed except Bleach because it can block other auras.

"Your standard, again, according to you earlier TODAY, is that we need to find auras thst block other auras with emotional effects in them, meaning that you must think Ten somehow targets the emotions in some way and specifically defends against them, otherwise, how is the emotions existing in the aura relevant"

It wasn't relevant to the main point I was stating what it does. Do I seriously have to list all the irrelevant information you posted? I don't remember taking that information and extrapolating it into something entirely different and say "that's what you said". So you aren't making any sense here.

Intangibility was just to throw away any tangible defenae like chakra and such. I didn't once claim it would go through intangible defences once. Another thing you pulled out your ass.

Stop lying.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

"when half of the time you were asking for feats of Auras blocking emotional attacks in the first place."

Again I said block other auras. That's what I asked for.

 

[Amexim]

That's not what you said. Why are you all of a sudden so thirsty for attention now? Did I hurt your feelings? Is your pride wounded now that no one wants to even bother listening to you as you attempt to change your argument?

 

[Amexim]

Like, read what you say? You say Ten doesn't defend against emotions— or "it doesn't nullify emotions and doesn't need to", and then also say that all auras thst work this way need to prove they can defend against emotional aura. Which... You even say isn't what Ten does. Which is it?

 

[Amexim]

If you're gonna say "nullify" and "defend against" aren't the same thing, then we're arguing semantics. Because what's being done to defend against those emotional attacks is defending against the aura by blocking it from touching you. If you can block the aura with your own aura to keep it from touching you, you can defend against it. You don't need to demonstrate the ability to block emotional attacks because it's not the way to defend against "intangible Nen".

 

[Amexim]

Oh and, uh. Another example of how I KNOW you're screaming and changing your argument just to try to win. You specifically note that: "This is unture. There's the aspect of defense against the EFFECTS of other aura which isn't present in many other shounen. Other auras don't have the same EFFECTS either especially DEATH INDUCEMENT."

So, again, your claim was that the verse had to resist similar affects using their aura to prove that they can defend against Nen Crush. You specified that you believe Ten specifically defends against the affects (wrong "effect" my dude) of Nen Crush, and we debunked you by demonstrating there's no evidence that Ten does anything more than using their own aura and blocking the aura that has those effects that will activate if they touch you. According to what YOU said, these other verses need feats of defending against similar affects to be able to negate Nen Crush. You continued to claim that Ten was special in that regard. AKM and Cal both got that impression, so clearly it's your fault for misrepresenting yourself. I'm just quoting YOU.

"It can only be the case if similar abilities are used in the verse. If the aura or whatever is shown to block out those abilities too."

The abilities you're referring to are the Nen Crush staples! Mind hax and Death Hax. Your literal second post implies that you want the criteria to be blocking death hax bullshit using an aura, when the counter to the death hax is really just blocking aura period. So, AKM, who put it simply "agreed" and said, you just need to make a barrier to block the Nen, stated exactly what you claim your position was all along.

"Show me examples of every verse "can and has done" the same effects of ten and malicious aura."

Which implies that you think the verse needs to show a defense against auras with malice, when they just need to show a defense against energy. But even when we showed you aura physically slapping away energy blasts, you pull a bullshit excuse like air pressure out of nowhere with no evidence to support that counterclaim. There was no wind affects, no lines in the art that implies Air Force like Morel vs Gon does, and even Gon's jajaken charge in that scene cracked the ground on some Dragon Ball Z shit. So, there's no proof that can convince you. You're so insane that you'll do anything to be right.

And just because you say that we're wrong, and disagree with us, doesn't make it true, nor does it mean your opinion matters.

But if you suddenly agree with us now, all we need is AKM and we can close this!

 

[Edwellken]

If you want to specify that they have the resistance to "aura based" effects of this type specifically when using Ten, that's 100% agreeable.

I think this is what we're going for?

If AKM agrees we still need to come up with the wording for the profiles.

 

[Amexim]

That, and for the Nen Crush mechanics clarification if that needs to be written down anywhere since some people think it applies no matter what.

 

[Antvasima]

I have to unsibscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can message me later if you need my help after you reach a conclusion.

 

[Edwellken]

The "Nen crush" should just be listed as "Ren" under attacks and techniques, and probably only given to those who use it that way in character.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

My claim is to clarify the ability of nen to create a barrier to defend against other displays of NEN which can CAUSE those specific effects

If so show me multiple examples. They need an actual barrier to block the intagible nen not just a display of aura.

Here again as part of my first refutes. I specify NEN and not the EFFECTS it causes.

The defense is what blocks the other aura. I've said repeatedly any verse that can block intagible aura can be equalised to block nen. Again make a list of verses.

Again I specify aura.

I'm saying many shounen auras don't have the defence to block other auras like nen does, when that mechanic is proven then it can be equalised. Not that shounen aura is tangible and nen isn't so it goes through it.

Aura again.

That was more of a stupid mistake on my part in terms of refutation. Which wasn't actual my point so I see how I confused you. However I didn't mention effects for the vast majority of this thread and specified aura way more so it was clearly a mistake. So yes aura was the crux of my argument not the two occasions where I mentioned effects as important. That last quote just refers to ten's defence and aura protection. I don't mean "effect" the same way everytime I use the word, look at context. I admit I made two errors which were the cause of misinterpertation bur they weren't relevant at all and you fell back on them to push it was my premise when it clearly was not.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

In the DB subpoint I said it was air pressure or just pressire and gave reasons. Then I said why barriers in DB aren't a thing with the exception of Jiren and the ones made in ToP specifically to combat poison. So no I didn't just deny wvidence. I refuted and debunked the evidence.

 

[AKM sama]

From all the scans posted by Edwellken I got a major throwback to Gohan teaching Videl how to utilize her energy.

Anyway, from all the scans I have looked, everyone in the HxH verse possesses a particular life energy and ten is the technique that contains that life energy and toughens it, producing a wide cover of energy around the user, simply put, producing an aura (as blatantly shown in the last panel of the first scan). Obviously majority of normal humans don't know how to utilize this energy, only relevant characters do because shounen. It might have different names for different techniques to control the energy but at its core it's basically the same thing as many other verses who utilize life energy and envelop their bodies with energy.

Moving toward the actual point of this thread, against the malicious aura attack a normal person would perish because of course they don't know how to utilize their energy to produce aura, but a person who knows the ten technique, or in simple language, knows how to envelop one's body with enough energy to produce aura, would be completely unaffected by that attack because the user's aura/energy blocks the opponent's aura/energy. It's nothing but cancelling energy with energy.

Ultimately that attack only works on people who can't produce their own aura making them vulnerable to the energy created by the opponent. For anyone that can use their energy to form an their own aura is defended from that energy. I never saw anything about the energy requiring a certain property for it to be able to do it. Just plain and simple energy.

 

[AKM sama]

For that, I would honestly like to change how it's portrayed in profiles. One, it isn't resistance. It's just blocking the attack before you're even infected. It also doesn't block all attacks, just aura energy. So all resistances based on this should be removed. Only writing Aura (Ten users can produce aura to block malicious aura attacks with examples and scans) or something similar to it should be sufficient.

Second, which is a much smaller matter, is it's portrayal in vs threads where several people are under the false idea that the energy needs to have a very special property when nothing in canon suggests that. Only having a simple energy aura is all that is required to counter this specific attack.

 

[Edwellken]

It's more than just producing aura, though. You even said yourself that they strengthen it in the very same sentence.

I think I distinguished between enveloping yourself and aura and using a technique made to block another's aura already... And even that aside, the idea that any type of aura from any verse just naturally blocks any other type of aura from any other verse is demonstrably false, since in most media aura itself is intangible. They need to have shown the ability to block out energy or something similar with their own aura in the case of Ren.

There's no special property needed here anyway.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Aura that's obviously displayed to interact with other aura because the logic of "it's just energy blocking other energy" doesn't always apply, as I said before. What if auras inverse intersect rather then interacting for example.

 

[Edwellken]

For that, I would honestly like to change how it's portrayed in profiles. One, it isn't resistance. It's just blocking the attack before you're even infected. It also doesn't block all attacks, just aura energy. So all resistances based on this should be removed. Only writing Aura (Ten users can produce aura to block malicious aura attacks with examples and scans) or something similar to it should be sufficient.

I agree with this. Calling it resistance or not is semantics for the most part, but it's important to note for argument's sake that most skilled Nen users are able to keep Ten working passively, even in their sleep.

 

[Amexim]

So... You say "block intangible aura", but also say that you don't believe that Nen can go through other auras. 2 things, asshole.

1. If it can't go through other auras, why are we trying to prove that other auras can block it and "intangible" energy forms? If it was or wasn't intangible, if it can't go through auras, it doesn't matter. So why is that a criteria?

2. Why bring up the idea that it's "intangible" if you don't believe that it, by definition, goes through other auras? If intangible energy interaction must be displayed by the aura in order for Nen to not affect it, then clearly that must mean that those that don't will be vulnerable because the Nen will seep through. Otherwise, you're saying nonsense.

Why would we need to prove a defense against its intangibility if it does not go through auras in its own verse, which if it could, would mean making the shroud or even "barrier" defense of another verse irrelevant because it can't block "intangible Nen", and that it needs feats for that to prove they can block the aura? Your reason for your claim literally contradicts what you say you believe, and if you don't think that it can go through other auras, why are you saying that it's a requirement— as if aura that is "tangible" will not stop Nen from affecting the Target? Which would mean, it's intangible and therefore can go through aura. Which, again, contradicts what you say.

Your argument has these things called "implications". You bringing up the idea that Nen is intangible means that you think it can go through other auras— because if it couldn't in your mind, it wouldn't be a requirement.

And how is it my job to interpret your use of the same word differently when nothing you said indicates that you're speaking about a different "effect"— it's affect, again. Affect is to produce change, effect is the result of an action.

All you said, was "effects" and You continuously paired that with malicious aura in the same posts in the same sentences over an over again. How was I supposed to know you're not talking about the very thing you started and brought up? Worse;

"Also "substance" is not the term it's an effect of it not present in other verses."

Never mind the fact that a unique effect specific to a verse's special energy would mean that the energy substance itself must have special qualities to set itself apart— you blatantly are referring to Nen Crush here. Over and over again. You wanted evidence of defense against similar affects from other verses, when that's not even how you defend against the overall effect (result of being affected by the death and madness hax, to demonstrate the difference between the two words).

The entire argument we have been having has been based on these ideas. It's not me zeroing in on one mistake you made. It's that the mistake you made was your entire argument from the beginning, and if it wasn't, you literally said the exact opposite of EVERYTHING you believed, under the false pretense that we disagree on the requirements. Plus... Intangiblity is some how relevant...? You brought that up too for no reason, and when talking about this affect getting through someone's defense or aura, again... That literally points to it going THROUGH the aura. Because, how else would something being intangible be a factor in going through other "tangible" energies, if it wasn't gonna just go through it? You toss aside Chakra cloaks because of what you think they are— 100% tangible all the time, because you never heard of them being intangible ever— and that has to mean that you think Nen can go through it. Otherwise, intangibility— your point— is irrelevant.

And, you gave no reasons— no, not even pointing at evidence to suggest that the scans were wind pressure and not the aura itself. My argument and reasons stated that it if it was wind pressure, we'd see wind lines or air waves around them or at least on screen. But we don't even see that! We see the attacks making contact with the aura itself, and being distorted by the aura. The energy spheres bend as if they're pushing against a wall and the blasts curve around Jiren's aura, which doesn't look like any barrier in DB— they look see through and glass-like. They did EXACTLY what Ten does, right down to how it LOOKS.

Meanwhile, instead of pointing to something that actually supported the idea that it was wind pressure, providing evidence, you just say that it's wind pressure and repeat that. Despite the aura of Goku literally cracking the ground under it with its contact. What's your actual argument for that? Because you certainly didn't acknowledge anything we gave you, and your reasons for "air pressure" were weak. All you did was make your claim and say that it happens all the time, even though that doesn't negate the actual evidence we gave you. It's literally true for both DB and HxH that your energy can generate air pressure AND also be able to block other energy. We just showed you Morel vs Gon and Goku's Ki slightly distorting the energy blasts and then in that same fight— the same video— his Aura makes them detonate! Air pressure doesn't do that!

 

[AKM sama]

What I said is that the energy needs to be contained and toughened, as in maintain a wider layer as demonstrated in the scan. That's just how basic aura is produced.

Again, energy is primarily intangible and can be made tangible in numerous verses. When the energies are able to interact with each other as per verse equalization, you don't need any proof to say that energy interacts with energy or energy can cancel energy. It's like saying two identical things need proof that they can interact with each other. Most auras already block much weaker energy anyway since a strong energy layer > much weaker energy attack. It's only when the attacking energy itself is strong enough it needs more than just simple aura.

 

[AKM sama]

@Amexim, calm down will you? Consider this a warning and if you continue I will have to ban you.

 

[Ionliosite]

I agree with Edwellken, he seems to make the most sense here.

 

[AKM sama]

Aura that's obviously displayed to interact with other aura because the logic of "it's just energy blocking other energy" doesn't always apply, as I said before. What if auras inverse intersect rather then interacting for example.

If the aura is made up of energy, it will undoubtedly interact with other energy by default given verse equalization. In specific cases, you'd have to prove otherwise.