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Right so I have to bring evidence for my claims and you don't have to. Seems like a fair deal. I'll ignore that DB ki bs till I get a video.
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HxH specifically
- Thread starter Amexim
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- #82
Chakra is intangible when it's not being made into a ****** Rasengan, and when you anime glow when you're creating a bunch of it or charging it. And we don't even have to extend you the good will to show you Goku in SS3 in ToP blasting the shit away, or Goku pushing his aura against someone else's in countless fights.
But! Here; https://youtu.be/vlHVQ62pyWQ
Did the damn work for you.
But! Here; https://youtu.be/vlHVQ62pyWQ
Did the damn work for you.
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Chakra Cloaks are tangible. Rotation which it just raw chakra is also tangible. Haven't seen any intangible propeties.
That wasn't a literal energy barrier just pressure built up from his power up which always creates air pressure.
That wasn't a literal energy barrier just pressure built up from his power up which always creates air pressure.
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Doesn't seem like the "flashy glow" did anything in that case.
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- #88
It literally TOUCHED the aura itself, and then exploded. Worse, the air pressure argument is what proves it can hit shit! Jiren's sheer existence, not even a fully developed aura blew Goku's base kamehameha away. The only explanations for that are;
Jiren is such a Chad that even Base Goku's Kamehameha was scared of him,
Or, that Jiren's Ki is so powerful that even a weak, non concentrated, FAINT, basically invisible flow of Ki blew away Goku's attack.
We literally see their energy blow the world around them apart. What do you think "creates" that "air pressure"? Their aura.
Jiren is such a Chad that even Base Goku's Kamehameha was scared of him,
Or, that Jiren's Ki is so powerful that even a weak, non concentrated, FAINT, basically invisible flow of Ki blew away Goku's attack.
We literally see their energy blow the world around them apart. What do you think "creates" that "air pressure"? Their aura.
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Air pressure isn't headcanon at all. It happens in almost every case of a powerup. Sure it's fine if you want to stop debating. Gives me a relief from bad arguments.
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Jiren can literally create barriers and he's the only main fighting character to do it within combat. No one passively does it with ki. Never seen a case where their ki acts as a barrier to other ki blast. Even with that aura they still get hit etc.
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- #91
[[
You can see them firing their attack. Goku's raw power manifests into an aura and the strength of that alone cracks the earth around him, iconic to Dragon Ball and has been a part of it since the beginning of Z. His raw power clashes with the Ki blasts, for 10 frames or so, no air lines to suggest its air pressure like with Jiren's punch against Maji Kayo, and even when that happened, it was obvious that Jiren was using a technique similar to a Kiai (an invisible, likely unconcentrated, Ki energy shockwave) to push the spirit bomb back— we even see his aura alone almost kill Frieza and 17s actual energy barriers until Goku saved him with his own energy barriers and pushed back against it!
But back to this. Goku's power manifested in an aura, which by itself VISIBLY distorts the spherical shape of the energy blasts, as it they were being squeezed or affected or pressured by the aura it was attempting to dig into. It then makes those blasts explode, revealing SS3 Goku when the smoke clears, standing in an even bigger crater made of the raw weight of his aura alone.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57A5Es3dKHg&t=120s
Yeah this is clearly a case of barrier and air pressure, sure.
Yeah this is clearly a case of barrier and air pressure, sure.
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Seems like a downgrade based on OP. I agree that that you do have to put up an aura for HxH, not sure about other verses. Levelling stuff from what I've read usually have passive or active skills towards these stuff, the former they can resist stuff whilst not being on guard.
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Yes DB Aura has tangible effects sure and it has a seemingly levatation effects too and creates a lot of air pressure. It isn't a barrier just because the pressure created from his powerup stops the ki blasts. Again, ki aura has never been a barrier in DB to other ki attacks and always hits the opponent regardless of aura, it's never stopped an attack like that due to being a barrier and ki blasts have at times been diverted by aura but that's clearly due to the pressure it generates pushing them away. So this can't in any case be a barrier.
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Jiren is a character who can make barriers it's one of his abilities which no other character replicates but it isn't just from his aura. Again, Ki doesn't act as a passive barrier.
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I directly refered to it and refuted it. Evidence isn't infallible. Same way you refuted mine.
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And if Jiren's stichk thing applies to everyone. Why have I never seen Goku put up barriers like that with a glare and other characters block attacks that way.
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- #104
Because you can say the exact same thing about Nen.
https://youtu.be/AIiQRHsntck
See how the air pressure affects the trees and shit. How there's wind lines to signify the difference between air pressure from Nen and Nen itself. There's similar things in Dragon Ball. There's wind lines that appear all around attacks. Even the scans show little effects flowing around their aura. Maybe... *gasp* it's the air pressure from their Nen that's blocking the aura, not the aura itself!
Ridiculous.
https://youtu.be/AIiQRHsntck
See how the air pressure affects the trees and shit. How there's wind lines to signify the difference between air pressure from Nen and Nen itself. There's similar things in Dragon Ball. There's wind lines that appear all around attacks. Even the scans show little effects flowing around their aura. Maybe... *gasp* it's the air pressure from their Nen that's blocking the aura, not the aura itself!
Ridiculous.
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This will go nowhere. Let's just agree to disagree. I don't feel like going over this for another few days we'll never find common ground. So I'll leave you to it.
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- #106
.... Jiren's method of applying Kiais and barriers is unique... But I literally provided scans of Goku's Ki aura pushing against two energy blasts to the point where they distort and morph against his power. With his aura. It's right there. You're denying evidence. You don't even realize that this whole line of questioning is a counter to a point that you haven't even proven yet— that Nen can go through their auras because it's especially intangible. Which... You ADMIT we refuted.
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Refute isn't debunk. While I disagree with much you said, I've already said I'm done with this bs.
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That wasn't my point either.
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It wasn't a derail. It was a point I made which is entirely relevant to the thread detailing the mechanics of nen. Even in gloating as if you achieved anything you're terrible.
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- #112
Sir, you said you were done. I think you're rather terrible for believing that your arguments are valid, despite all evidence to the contrary. Even though your attitude of refusing to concede your argument makes all debate pointless because you can't admit you're wrong, your logic means you don't even think you debunked us either.
A tangent about Nen being intangible has nothing to do with this thread when not only is there no evidence of that being anything uncommon unique, different or even important to the verse itself, in GENERAL it's not even worth discussion. If talking about the mechanics of Nen Crush is derailing in a thread that Nen Crush is relevant, talking about Nen being intangible when that's not even a remarkable trait that clarifies anything useful and then posting several pictures that don't even say anything that you're claiming is definitely derailing.
A tangent about Nen being intangible has nothing to do with this thread when not only is there no evidence of that being anything uncommon unique, different or even important to the verse itself, in GENERAL it's not even worth discussion. If talking about the mechanics of Nen Crush is derailing in a thread that Nen Crush is relevant, talking about Nen being intangible when that's not even a remarkable trait that clarifies anything useful and then posting several pictures that don't even say anything that you're claiming is definitely derailing.
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I am done which is why I'm not addressing your points anymore and just you. I'm not wrong. So I'm not conceding. It's as simple as that. If I was wrong I would concede which I've done before and I could easily say this same thing to you. I don't know where you extrapolated that last statement from. I believe my arguments still stand but I don't want to expend on time them, the generic "I have other things to do".
Nice, more proof of your incompetence. A tangent on nen having defensive characteristics against other intangible nen attacks being more unique then most auras in shounen. Irrelevant if it isn't important in verse it's between other verses. Nen being intangible wasn't my only point if anything it was part of one. Images that proved my claims that you didn't even directly address and just simplified the context wrongly too. This thread in general was just about the true nature of nen and we both made comparisons to other verses. Don't misrepresent me, degenerate.
Nice, more proof of your incompetence. A tangent on nen having defensive characteristics against other intangible nen attacks being more unique then most auras in shounen. Irrelevant if it isn't important in verse it's between other verses. Nen being intangible wasn't my only point if anything it was part of one. Images that proved my claims that you didn't even directly address and just simplified the context wrongly too. This thread in general was just about the true nature of nen and we both made comparisons to other verses. Don't misrepresent me, degenerate.
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So. 1 more 'gain.
The criteria for other verses defending against this affect are as follows:
"Is an aura or field that is demonstrated to interact with other forms of that type of energy in a defensive or repulsive manner."
Or as AKM put it. "one's aura blocking another's aura [or energy in general]" Basically, it's not for show, and proves that the aura can make contact with other energies/auras/forms of the energy substance, whilst also being able to stop the aura or energy from touching your body.
Examples of proof include your aura deflecting energy blast attacks, your energy being used to hit other energy (Dragon Ball, and Reiatsu with Bleach, I guess). Anything that proves your energy field/aura can make contact with other variations of energy and therefore mimicking the functions of Ten, acting as a screen from other energies. I cannot stress this enough. Personally, I feel it has to be energy of the "Chi" variety as well, but that's another topic we can discuss.
Do the staff have anything to say about that? Am I accurate? Should this be, like, written down somewhere?
The criteria for other verses defending against this affect are as follows:
"Is an aura or field that is demonstrated to interact with other forms of that type of energy in a defensive or repulsive manner."
Or as AKM put it. "one's aura blocking another's aura [or energy in general]" Basically, it's not for show, and proves that the aura can make contact with other energies/auras/forms of the energy substance, whilst also being able to stop the aura or energy from touching your body.
Examples of proof include your aura deflecting energy blast attacks, your energy being used to hit other energy (Dragon Ball, and Reiatsu with Bleach, I guess). Anything that proves your energy field/aura can make contact with other variations of energy and therefore mimicking the functions of Ten, acting as a screen from other energies. I cannot stress this enough. Personally, I feel it has to be energy of the "Chi" variety as well, but that's another topic we can discuss.
Do the staff have anything to say about that? Am I accurate? Should this be, like, written down somewhere?
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This thread became cancer... how did we get to DBS and Jiren?
Anyway here is the stuff about Ten.
As you can see, everyone emanates a layer of aura, though without Ten, it provides no real defense against Nen attacks. Ten is a specific technique created by manipulating the flow of ones own aura both around and throughout ones own body.
Ten, and Nen techniques in general are performed by controlling the flow of aura through one's "aura nodes".
Nen exists within everyone, and there are even those who subconsciously make use of their aura, yet lack the conventional knowledge to use abilities such as Ten.
Gon and Killua have their nodes forcibly opened, causing their aura to flow put uncontrollably. You can plainly see that they're completely covered in their aura here. And yet, it isn't until they learn how to properly control the flow of their own aura that they actually begin using Ten.
Through training and natural talent, Gon and Killua were able to learn the technique abnormally quickly.
It's only the after Gon and Killua learn Ten, and not while their aura was flowing out of them uncontrollably, that Wing demonstrates the technique's defensive properties by attacking them with Ren. Ten is a specific ability that requires training and practice to both learn and master.
Regardless of whether you personally find it impressive, Ten is an official ability explicitly used to defend against attacks such as Ren. While it isn't a flashy or advanced technique by any means, it's clearly more than just simply shrouding yourself with aura.
Anyway here is the stuff about Ten.
As you can see, everyone emanates a layer of aura, though without Ten, it provides no real defense against Nen attacks. Ten is a specific technique created by manipulating the flow of ones own aura both around and throughout ones own body.
Ten, and Nen techniques in general are performed by controlling the flow of aura through one's "aura nodes".
Nen exists within everyone, and there are even those who subconsciously make use of their aura, yet lack the conventional knowledge to use abilities such as Ten.
Gon and Killua have their nodes forcibly opened, causing their aura to flow put uncontrollably. You can plainly see that they're completely covered in their aura here. And yet, it isn't until they learn how to properly control the flow of their own aura that they actually begin using Ten.
Through training and natural talent, Gon and Killua were able to learn the technique abnormally quickly.
It's only the after Gon and Killua learn Ten, and not while their aura was flowing out of them uncontrollably, that Wing demonstrates the technique's defensive properties by attacking them with Ren. Ten is a specific ability that requires training and practice to both learn and master.
Regardless of whether you personally find it impressive, Ten is an official ability explicitly used to defend against attacks such as Ren. While it isn't a flashy or advanced technique by any means, it's clearly more than just simply shrouding yourself with aura.
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Your first scan:
So... Just make your aura noticeable, and denser, so that it's actually going to protect you, yeah? That's what Ten is.
Second scan: It doesn't say throughout in that shot. It implies it in the first one, but this scan, what I posted myself, is referring to Ten being used exactly as we discussed above. To block aura using your own aura. This is literally what Wing said. The ability of augmenting your physical body, "toughening it" and maintaining its youth and vigor has nothing to do with how Ten is explained to defend against the effect and especially with how it is shown on panel against Hisoka, as their aura, as Wing explains, is blocking Hisoka's.
Third scan: I think I posted this one two. This adds nothing... We know how Nen works. Having aura nodes has nothing to do with the defense against the En.
Fourth scan: I also said this earlier. However, part of your claim is disputed by the very scan you give us. Wing in that scan DOES NOT state that these special individuals are not using Ten. That is neither explicitly stated, nor is it reasonable to infer given that if you don't manage to use Ten to stop the wild outflow of your aura, you could suffer from exhaustion, like your next three scans show. His statement more likely refers to them consciously understanding that they are using Nen in the first place, being unable to consciously use it, along with the more advanced or even slightly above basic applications. They're intuitively manipulating it unknowingly, but they're blind to how it works in actuality.
5, 6, & 7: So, again, Wing says they have to learn how to control its flow in order to not die from exhaustion or loss of life energy. This is why the violent initiation that happens on this floor is so unpreferred and risky. As, while it's the fastest and easiest it's also the most dangerous. The aura flows from their bodies loosely. Wildly. Unregulated. To use Ten, you must control the flow properly and regulate it. It's entirely possible or viable to argue that because it's not regulated and is just leaking out wildly, it can't protect you. It's, again, as we have argued, not about the aura being present, but about it being able to block other aura from touching it. In that state, nevermind being able to defend yourself from passive attacks, you won't even survive. To argue that Nen can be used whilst Ten is not in use is to reject the very statements that explain Ten and Nen in general given by wing. Your interpretation is flawed therefore.
With the last 3 scans, all you managed to demonstrate was that... Ten is a regulated aura around your body. Any... Almost all auras in fiction are regulated around the body. It's only separated by the fact that, in HxH it loosely flows away from you naturally, and when the gates are open, even more loose, unrefined, uncontrolled, untempered, unfocused, and therefore unable to interact with other auras and be useful defensively— if not harmful due to exertion and loss— this... Doesn't prove anything.
All Ten is, is regulating a flow of energy around you, with, at best for your argument, a bit more of a denser later than it just flowing out.
That's... Not special. That's not a unique defense method against it. That's literally just telling us what Nen is. I've demonstrated Dragon Ball as an example does this even better. The flow of energy is so dense that it can block even denser, more concentrated attacks. The only "special trait" of Ten is that it's... Controlled (which isn't the unique or special thing) and... Slightly denser, likely or at least possibly as a result of it being controlled so that it doesn't leak away from your body— if, not then at the VERY best for your argument, it's intentionally slightly denser, so the Aura of an enemy doesn't touch you.
So... Just make your aura noticeable, and denser, so that it's actually going to protect you, yeah? That's what Ten is.
Second scan: It doesn't say throughout in that shot. It implies it in the first one, but this scan, what I posted myself, is referring to Ten being used exactly as we discussed above. To block aura using your own aura. This is literally what Wing said. The ability of augmenting your physical body, "toughening it" and maintaining its youth and vigor has nothing to do with how Ten is explained to defend against the effect and especially with how it is shown on panel against Hisoka, as their aura, as Wing explains, is blocking Hisoka's.
Third scan: I think I posted this one two. This adds nothing... We know how Nen works. Having aura nodes has nothing to do with the defense against the En.
Fourth scan: I also said this earlier. However, part of your claim is disputed by the very scan you give us. Wing in that scan DOES NOT state that these special individuals are not using Ten. That is neither explicitly stated, nor is it reasonable to infer given that if you don't manage to use Ten to stop the wild outflow of your aura, you could suffer from exhaustion, like your next three scans show. His statement more likely refers to them consciously understanding that they are using Nen in the first place, being unable to consciously use it, along with the more advanced or even slightly above basic applications. They're intuitively manipulating it unknowingly, but they're blind to how it works in actuality.
5, 6, & 7: So, again, Wing says they have to learn how to control its flow in order to not die from exhaustion or loss of life energy. This is why the violent initiation that happens on this floor is so unpreferred and risky. As, while it's the fastest and easiest it's also the most dangerous. The aura flows from their bodies loosely. Wildly. Unregulated. To use Ten, you must control the flow properly and regulate it. It's entirely possible or viable to argue that because it's not regulated and is just leaking out wildly, it can't protect you. It's, again, as we have argued, not about the aura being present, but about it being able to block other aura from touching it. In that state, nevermind being able to defend yourself from passive attacks, you won't even survive. To argue that Nen can be used whilst Ten is not in use is to reject the very statements that explain Ten and Nen in general given by wing. Your interpretation is flawed therefore.
With the last 3 scans, all you managed to demonstrate was that... Ten is a regulated aura around your body. Any... Almost all auras in fiction are regulated around the body. It's only separated by the fact that, in HxH it loosely flows away from you naturally, and when the gates are open, even more loose, unrefined, uncontrolled, untempered, unfocused, and therefore unable to interact with other auras and be useful defensively— if not harmful due to exertion and loss— this... Doesn't prove anything.
All Ten is, is regulating a flow of energy around you, with, at best for your argument, a bit more of a denser later than it just flowing out.
That's... Not special. That's not a unique defense method against it. That's literally just telling us what Nen is. I've demonstrated Dragon Ball as an example does this even better. The flow of energy is so dense that it can block even denser, more concentrated attacks. The only "special trait" of Ten is that it's... Controlled (which isn't the unique or special thing) and... Slightly denser, likely or at least possibly as a result of it being controlled so that it doesn't leak away from your body— if, not then at the VERY best for your argument, it's intentionally slightly denser, so the Aura of an enemy doesn't touch you.
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A good way to note the difference between energy leaving you and Ten is... The strength and control you display when you blow out a candle versus exhaling. When you blow air with effort, it's "denser" in terms of how it feels, the pressure from it is more "solid". Simple exhalation is a "softer", "less dense", "airy" force that gives off less resistance.
All you managed to do was say... Ten is thicker than just... Being covered in cool energy lights. And we already established that, to replicate the affects of Ten and defend against the affects in question, you have to have aura/energy fields that can block other aura/energy. That's... A given in many cases. Dragon Ball for example. Maybe even Black Clover's Mana Skin technique, but i'm not sure if they're "dense enough" to block other energy from flowing in.
It's like... Breathing on someone's breath vs blowing on their breath with force. Your condensed, focused air will go through their unrefined air flow, and grossly go into your mouth.
The mechanics of the defense are the important thing, as you say you agree— and any verse that mimics these mechanisms can defend similarly against these affects. Ten defends against these affects by being a shroud of Aura thick enough to block other aura from touching you. The reason why you have to use Ten— nevermind that you don't wanna bleed out aura and die— is to keep that aura that exists your body in large amounts from escaping away and burning off in the air uselessly. So, it being kept close and regulated makes sense for it to be naturally thicker than what it would be naturally and/or if you didn't control it and bled it out. Normally, all it does is just leave your body, in mass. Like exhalation. You're not using Ten— you're not "Shrouding" or "Enveloping" yourself in an aura— it only looks similarly because it's all just coming out of you.
If another verse can make a shroud of Aura/energy that envelops their body and that aura is thick enough or otherwise able to block and interact with other auras/energy, they basically are using Ten. It making your body stronger and more youthful/energetic... Has nothing to do with how it blocks the affects. It's... Just statistics augmentation. Even if it did, almost all verses do this too when powering up.
All you managed to do was say... Ten is thicker than just... Being covered in cool energy lights. And we already established that, to replicate the affects of Ten and defend against the affects in question, you have to have aura/energy fields that can block other aura/energy. That's... A given in many cases. Dragon Ball for example. Maybe even Black Clover's Mana Skin technique, but i'm not sure if they're "dense enough" to block other energy from flowing in.
It's like... Breathing on someone's breath vs blowing on their breath with force. Your condensed, focused air will go through their unrefined air flow, and grossly go into your mouth.
The mechanics of the defense are the important thing, as you say you agree— and any verse that mimics these mechanisms can defend similarly against these affects. Ten defends against these affects by being a shroud of Aura thick enough to block other aura from touching you. The reason why you have to use Ten— nevermind that you don't wanna bleed out aura and die— is to keep that aura that exists your body in large amounts from escaping away and burning off in the air uselessly. So, it being kept close and regulated makes sense for it to be naturally thicker than what it would be naturally and/or if you didn't control it and bled it out. Normally, all it does is just leave your body, in mass. Like exhalation. You're not using Ten— you're not "Shrouding" or "Enveloping" yourself in an aura— it only looks similarly because it's all just coming out of you.
If another verse can make a shroud of Aura/energy that envelops their body and that aura is thick enough or otherwise able to block and interact with other auras/energy, they basically are using Ten. It making your body stronger and more youthful/energetic... Has nothing to do with how it blocks the affects. It's... Just statistics augmentation. Even if it did, almost all verses do this too when powering up.
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