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HUGE One Piece Upgrades
- Thread starter That_moron2
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If there's the sparks and they're black, it's Buso. Base Kaido matched Buso Oden who clashed with Whitebeard. That's more than enough to support his base scaling.
At worst it's base and Zoan, both of which clashed with a bloodlusted Oden w/buso. Hybrid Kaido shouldn't be in the conversation at all.
At worst it's base and Zoan, both of which clashed with a bloodlusted Oden w/buso. Hybrid Kaido shouldn't be in the conversation at all.
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I ain't doubting he used Buso against Kaido, but that he didn't use Koka in specific against Base Kaido. The Scabbards can generate the haki red/black sparks even without turning their swords into blackblades. Aside from the sword color being gray rather than Koka Black(to my eye at least), say Koka Oden=Koka Kaido & that same Oden scarred Zoan Kaido for life. Kaido who's trying to kill himself would've left lasting scars to his base self in his suicide attemps. Or BM who's his base equal, always had a fierce rivalry with him according to Sengoku & both has higher type of haki, would've pull this off. Yet none this happened & Kaido had Oden over BM wielding Napoleon. It's either Koka Oden>Base Kaido/BM or Togen Totsuka is quite a decent boost, i'm out other options.
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Does invisible Buso generate the black sparks?
Oden using Togen Totsuka has implication of Ryuou, though. The scabbards in the flashback recall Oden mentioning Ryuou specifically when referring to his Oden Nitoryu (992, same page where we get the 4-way tougen totsuka). He was using pretty much the greatest level of Busoshoku for that attack.
He still got bloodied and pushed back by Zoan Kaido. He had to use his strongest technique to give Kaido that scar, not just Buso
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Anime supports this as well I guess by giving both Oden and the scabbards the Ryuo effect like Luffy when using Oden Nitoryu.
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There's that statement of anime staff getting the greenlight from Oda for the additional scenes on wano as well, so it's probably as intended
DaMonkeMan
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I'm still on the fence about that because they then added parts like Luffy and Kaidou flying without G4/G5 or Kaidou's Dragon form, so I'd take it with a grain of salt.
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This is only for Zou, not Wano
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Wasn't there like an entire thread about Oden's Ryuou being adavanced armament getting debunked? Kaido said the scabbards used Ryuou when they stabbed his base & generated pinkish sparks.
Oden was already bloodied from fighting the beast pirates pirates priror, you're right about the rest.
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And what's the source for that statement?
Bloodied from fighting fodder?
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Fodder Beast Pirates are High 6-A!
DaMonkeMan
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Let's make the random fodder marines who shot and stabbed WB at Marineford H6A too, yeah?
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DaMonkeMan
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DaMonkeMan
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If you reread my post, you'll see that has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
Notice the flames.
DaMonkeMan
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I was just noting that he did use his DF.
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Right, but that has nothing to do with my post.
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We're just discussing god-tier scaling now I guess
DaMonkeMan
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They have nothing to say about the Tobiroppo scaling anymore so they're just talking about random stuff.
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Getting back on topic, addressing the Ulti scaling point in the Op:
Scaling Ulti via making base Luffy bleed through his Buso Koka defense would mean in base she is undeniably stronger than Hybrid Kaidou who was unable to do the same with his Club.
I don't think I need to explain why base Ulti > hybrid Kaidou is undeniably an outlier.
So either this feat is scrapped as an outlier and ignored or we take into account Luffy growing stronger through the fight as his feat of blocking Kaidou happens in 1009 while the ulti stuff is pre-rooftop.
Scaling Ulti via making base Luffy bleed through his Buso Koka defense would mean in base she is undeniably stronger than Hybrid Kaidou who was unable to do the same with his Club.
I don't think I need to explain why base Ulti > hybrid Kaidou is undeniably an outlier.
So either this feat is scrapped as an outlier and ignored or we take into account Luffy growing stronger through the fight as his feat of blocking Kaidou happens in 1009 while the ulti stuff is pre-rooftop.
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I have always disagreed with any of the Tobiroppo scaling to Luffy, period.
G3 Luffy one-shot Page One.
The only reason he needed G4 to break out of Ulti's Grip was she was grabbing his shoulders, so he needed to break out of her grip.
G2 made Kaido dodge.
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Gear 2nd w/internal Ryuo + his flames from red attacks made him do that.
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True, but while Red Roc was partially dura neg from the fire and internal Ryou, its power still made Kaido compare G3 Luffy to Whitebeard and Oden.
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Wasn't that because Luffy was ridiculously more casual against her than he was against Kaido? He straight up says he underestimated her, meanwhile against Kaido we know Luffy was going all out.
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DaMonkeMan
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Ulti got put to sleep by BM, Yamato and Nami all in one attack each soon after that, we shouldn't be trying to scale her to Luffy.
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I missed that.
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No? Like, even the profile disagrees with you in this point.
DaMonkeMan
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Dumb, because Luffy got flung into the sea some chapters after that. Do you think Whitebeard and Oden would get flung into the sea that easily by him?
Basically, he was saying that because Luffy claimed he would be the Pirate King and surpass Kaidou and BM.
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Also, i am obviously not denying that Luffy got stronger over the course of the fight, but he was hit quite a few times by Kaido while in his base form, both by a thunder bagua in 1001 and 2 no named attacks from either Hybrid Kaido or Flame Napo Big Mom during 1008 so his durability was H6A even before 1009.
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I'm not really arguing for Luffy's durability not to be High 6-A, even when accounting those feats for just his regular base it doesn't solve the issue with the Ulti feat (if anything it makes it worse).
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It's just an outlier, and its less Ulti hurting Luffy as much as it is her overcoming the force of his base AP with it being redirected at him.
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Again, he was casual and states as such.
And like, this would be a problem if H6A Tobiroppo was massively unsupported, but it isn't.
No one has actually addressed Maria's feat which is the most blatant one and given how we treat Zoans, it would scale to her base while Ulti used haki (and i think she used partial transformation in the anime? Not sure).
Then there is Sasaki saying Yamato of all people shouldn't take him lightly, imagine a 6C telling a H6A to be careful during their fight.
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Because every OP thread is derailed to downgrades, this is like the 4th one this thread
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I don't see any issues with her overpowering Luffy's AP but the OP isn't using that for a High 6-A justification but the fact that Luffy was bleeding through his koka defense compared to Kaidou.
Unless you believe him being casual means the durability of his base or buso is lower I don't see how this solves the issue with scaling her to his durability.
I don't think you're understanding my issue here, this isn't a case of "Well if they're High 6-A it would work" it's an issue of scaling Base Ulti above Kaidou. And scaling her to Luffy's base durability feats doesn't fix these issues;
- The Thunder Bagua feat is a feat from Base Kaidou, luffy took that in base & his buso koka defense scales above that; Base Ulti would inevitably scale above Kaidou's thunder bagua AP despite her getting one-shot by Base Yamato's version in Zoan form.
- The off-screen hits from Hybrid Kaidou and whatever version of Big Mom is the same issue with the OP's justification but worse as Luffy's Buso Koka defense scales above his base durability.
I've been reading the thread and people have addressed it.
Sasaki has proven himself to be arrogant about his own power when he claimed he was the strongest creature to ever exist, and the dialogue seems to suggest that it has more to due with her protecting Momonosuke (she has constantly been using herself as a human shield to protect him):
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