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How are certain characters beaten?

The_real_cal_howard

The_real_cal_howard

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This is pretty much me getting out my infamous hax hatred.

For my sake, pick a character(s) that you know about that one would consider broken. Like, insane hax, stupid immortality/regen, etc.

How is that character beaten, or even challenged? Was t done well? Did it make sense? Was it clever? Was it an asspull? Were they beaten or challenged at all, and if not, why? Is it just game mechanics that makes it simple? Is there philosophy or symbolism behind it? What keeps this character from being a Sue? Or from killing all stakes or believability, or keeping them from being a Yhwach?

Doesn't matter if they're good or evil. Also, no Jojo. I already know how that's done well.
 
HA DIO, I guess. He was beaten by a combination of Jotaro using prior knowledge of what DIO would do next in a certain situation and using Funny's stand ability to help recreate that situation. I don't if this means over the course of his life or at the point where he got The World Over Heaven but DIO has been beaten and challenged many times. First as a kid by Jonathan, then later in his life by Jotaro. Symbolism would be that even with all that power, DIO was still subject to Fate's whims. He's not a Sue because he's kind of a jerk and has noticeable flaws like hating dogs and needing to punch to Reality Overwrite. I mean the stakes were kind of "This guy is pretty much a god, and none of the protagonists busted stand powers can beat him. He's going to take over the multiverse." I feel like Jotaro gaining Star Platinum : The World Over Heaven similar to what he did in part 3 was pretty believable.
 
So...there is this girl who only has like an eye contact based p.null and fights using Magnetism to throw ***** around (she has stuff like RW and mindhax but those are useless). But what makes her really a pain to deal with is her Resurrection ability which is instant btw. She can even resurrected after getting destroyed by Matter Destruction hax (I think it is basically a Pseudo Low Godly regen since her soul was also got destroyed).

So in order to defeat her, this girl has to BFR her to Hell but she will also come along with her as a price.

So, pretty believable.
 
The real cal howard said:
This is pretty much me getting out my infamous hax hatred.
For my sake, pick a character(s) that you know about that one would consider broken. Like, insane hax, stupid immortality/regen, etc.

How is that character beaten, or even challenged? Was t done well? Did it make sense? Was it clever? Was it an asspull? Were they beaten or challenged at all, and if not, why? Is it just game mechanics that makes it simple? Is there philosophy or symbolism behind it? What keeps this character from being a Sue? Or from killing all stakes or believability, or keeping them from being a Yhwach?

Doesn't matter if they're good or evil. Also, no Jojo. I already know how that's done well.
Click to expand...
Well, the first one that comes to mind is Galbatorix from the Inheritance Cycle. Dude's been around for so long he has all the magical defenses you can think of. He's also the best mind-breaker in the world to the point where multiple well-trained people cannot best him. In addition to all of this- he's got practically infinite energy for spell-casting and can manipulate the language that controls said magic himself.

He was actually challenged quite briefly by a betrayal from his trusted soldier but ultimately they were all set to lose because just too much was stacked in his favor and he was simply too good at being the antagonist. He left nothing to chance, he was always one step ahead, and he didn't underestimate the heroes for the most part.

As to how he lost, it was an idea that had been around since the first book but only something really hinted at being important in the last two- magic is not limited to just the language. So long as you can see the connection- anything is possible. And when you get down to the nitty-gritty- every life is full of happiness and pain- no matter how big or small.

Eragon didn't use the language to control the magic because he didn't know of a word that got his meaning across- Galbatorix couldn't defend against it because it was an attack with no structure in the language that he had established such control over. Eragon just wanted Galbatorix to understand what pain he was creating because he was incapable of such a thing.

For symbolism I couldn't say- often people ascribe symbolism where it doesn't have to exist. Certainly the book seems to imply the worst punishment you can give to an abuser is to make them understand what it feels like to be abused and there's a certain kharmic theme going there. Had Gally been a good boy- the spell would've done nothing to him.
 
The President (The Gamer), he got punched into submission, because he can't regenerate indefinitly.

Obito Uchiha, za plot took away hus main ability, amd then he decided that making all of humanity isn't right aince he is being kind of selfish with it. Cue talk no jutsu meme.

Monika got slapped by the fact that makes me depressed on a daily basis, she is 2D, and that ain't changing.

Most Konosuba characters use theirbpowers horribly, he it because they are stupid or other reasons.

Pokémo... You know already. The true god meteor shall come andbsolo the verse one day.

Madara Uchiha got a handjob to the heart from people from something I won't insult least they call me racist (white, black, asian and alien. What the hell).

Kaguya uses her powers horrendously, and Naruto and co got a litiral deis ex machina to beat her.
 
Honestly, I kind of agree with Cal:

While people often complain about how you shouldn't make a protagonist too powerful, or else the show loses all the tension and suspense, and the character just becomes a Mary Sue, to me, you shouldn't make a villain too strong either (compared to the protagonist/s).

If you actually do make a villain too strong, to the point where it looks like the main character/s would stand no chance at defeating him, then you either come up with an asspull to save the protags, or they simply defeat him with PIS and either way it may risk to feel unsatisfying and forced (other than just bad writing).

As for a verse in which a powerful villain got defeated:

Ninjago: the only defeat of a villain that could be considered bull crap, is Zane sacrificing himself to defeat the Golden Master. Now, take into account those things:

  • The Golden Master possesses all of the powers of the First Spinjitzu Master and the Golden Nnja, he is literally using the Golden Weapons as a wheelchair.
  • The Golden Weapons cannot be wielded by who isn't powerful enough to do so, and if he isn't, the wielder just immediately dies.
  • The Golden master has also all the powers of the original Overlord, alongside that abstract existence and regen (which we'll talk about later).
  • The only thing Zane and the other Ninja have gong for them are the Stone Armors, which give them the durability of the Stone Warriors, but that wouldn't be enough to defeat the Master.
How does he defeat him? Well... He jumps on the Master, and (from what I can understand) he uses the power of the Golden Weapons to overcharge himself (and the Stone Armor to briefly sustain it), and throw it all back at the Overlord, combined with his ice powers. However, he dies too in the process.

This raises multiple issues, such as "how did he actually managed to do that, if the Armor wasn't enough?", or "why did the Overlord not do anything to stop him, or use at least one of his bazillion of abilities", or "how did the Overlord not come back from that, despite having survived similar levels of destruction in the past more than once? (the time he managed to come back from these previous defeats varies too, and he even officially survived after this one, but he did not come back immediately)", and "how does the Overlord's immortality even work at this point?".

Well, at least Zane's sacrifice was tragic enough... Until he came back in the next seaso
 
Anyway, for me:

Darquesse: Despite the absolute buttload of hax she has, she was eventually beaten by having the one person she was fully unwilling to kill (the main protagonist / herself in her old body - it's sorta complicated) blast her in the face with a laser, thus distracting her long enough for a teleporter to port himself and 4 of the world's most powerful psychics around the Darquesse and stick an illusion in her head where she lived out killing the entire world, then getting even stronger and killing the entire universe, and then having become bored, she decided she wanted to kill another universe, this one full of gods so she opened a portal and went through to fight them, and left the main universe behind and hopefully (not) dies to the gods that she thought she could take on because she thought she was stronger than she actually was thanks to the illusion.

Note this wasn't the only thing they tried, they also had plans like having the only two people in the world who could match her in power (and even then only by boosting their magical power with a magic machine) beat on her enough that she was too busy focusing on healing to focus on atomising them (they almost won but got hit by a desperate surprise attack), and having 5 people armed with weapons that could kill in a single hit all wail on her at once (they didn't go so well, and they only survived as long as they did because all 5 of them had some kind of connection to her that made her want to kill them in a way more significant than just lol-atomise), and use a surprise attack to use death hax on her and imprison her soul in a ball to be destroyed.
 
Ganondorf: You get a very strong sword specifically created to fight him (kinda), and you generally also go around saving the people that can seal him away or getting an artifact to even things out.

Diavolo: Requiem as*pull. A very powerful power-up was introduced, he tried to get it but failed, then the protagonist managed to get and absolutely stomped him.

Kars: The was so strong that the protagonist had to resort to banish him in space via vulcanic eruption. It was a very big as*pull, but it was so epic it's easily forgiven.

Dio Brando: Hamon and Star Platinum: ZA WARUDO.

Yoshikage Kira: The guy has an OP transmutation, but in terms of strength and speed, he sucked. The protagonist is much stronger and faster than him, meaning that every time the fight came down to CQC the protagonist had the upper hand but every time it was a range battle, the antagonist had a pretty big advantage. Probably one of my favorite fights in JoJo.
 
Seresdina: Let's look at her abilities. Decent mindhax, insta-kill, magic and physical force redirection, petrification, she can kill you twice when she dies, probability increase, resurrection, curses that can apparently do ******* anything, she is quite OP.

Let's look at how she is defeated. She won against Kazuma and mindhax him. She's pretty much a winner, or so she thought. Everyday, everytime, Kazuma is either sexually harassing her in public or private, not doing her commands because of his bizarre logic and she pretty much rubbed her face to the ground in front of people of Accel. Furthermore, because he was atheist before mindhax, he got the redirection ability like she does, so he's unable to be killed, because she also dies when she kills him. She's also unable to manually lift the curse so he asked Aqua to lift the curse by potion and she gave Kazuma away. And Kazuma was like "Nah, man" and he destroyed the potion, goes back to Seresdina's side and sexually harassed her, again. Because of the rules, the mindhax was lifted and then Kazuma got killed. Then Eris kicked her out of the heaven and said to do your job, you ******* jerk and he revived. She was pinned down by Darkness who is resistant to curses and forced to go back to level 1 and taken into custody. It was just bizarre win for Kazuma.

Also just saying, but Mary Sue/Gary Stu aren't equivalent to impossible to defeat OP character. You can have very OP character that breaks any tension and still not qualified as Mary Sue. Because Mary Sue isn't some OP person, but perfect solver of every problem. Hacking, peace, battle, everything. You don't need to be all-around genius to be everything to be Mary Sue though, don't get me wrong, just the main problems or themes the verse or characters face. That's why I think Medaka Kurokami or Saitama aren't Mary Sue while Kirito is. Kirito is able to become good husband, hacker, warrior, badass, etc. Aka, he's perfect. Medaka or Saitama other hand, aren't Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Because their problems are far more than kicking or punching, they're alienated, that's why at the end of the day, they don't feel like some Second Jesus Christ at all. This also applies to villains of course like between Meruem and Heaven Ascension DIO. You can have batshit OP physically impossible to defeat character and get satisfying end to them. Rose Bomb is prime example.
 
I thought Medaka's whole point was that she was a Sue, and her series was a deconstruction of it. Obvs not saying Medaka is bad, because again, deconstruction.

Also, Sue is probably the wrong word for what I'm trying to avoid here. Story Breaker fits more.
 
Probably Yuki Terumi or better known as Susanoo, his defeat was actually somewhat clever since he feeds of people's hate and fear to live and Ragna used that against him and changed the timeline so he was known as a great hero thus there was no hate or fear for him left anymore and he was weakened enough for Ragna to erase him. But he came back from total erasure from time itself earlier so i'm conflicted on how to feel about this
 
We already talked about this, but I can paste some stuff over for others to read, if they want. imagine not linking me this smh
 
This isn't so strictly a "how they're beaten" so much as it's a "How they're balanced out".

General:
Remember that fights in verse aren't necessarily gonna be at fair engagement ranges like we make them in vsbw. Ambushes, prep, etc can be used to overcome a passive in a believable way.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2372567 Late, but that's the thread (Composite Human wins against a guy with thought based Reality Warping)

Basically stealth and range are huge advantages that this site doesn't really take into consideration due to SBA. You can have all the thought based RW you want and that won't save you from what you have no way of being aware of.

A lot of the really haxxed verses you've gotta remember have a bunch of other weaker characters in it that we just don't use profiles for because making files for 10-As to 9-Bs doesn't appeal as much to people on the site as making jaxxed files. In Warhammer, most of the stories are actually about random inquisitors and maybe low level space Marines. Someone like Ahzek Ahrima is a huge anamoly by the standards of the majority of the vrtse. In destiny, the really haxded dudes include gods, the absolute strongest humans (meaning player character and like 2 others), an ancient superweapon, and a race as a collective. Even in MtG, being a Planeswalker is rare as is, and being someone like Jace Belere (not especially strong in comparison to the likes of tezzeret and Liliana) far rarer, as the dude's a prodigy who's studied magic under some of the best mentalists there is. This site just gives people the false perception that an entire verse is like the few characters from it that get a ton of exposure on the site.

Chaos Gods:
As for the Chaos Gods, remember that they are less characters than they are forces and concepts, and that 40k has heavy cosmic horror aspects. Of course killing the concept of change, or fighting the concept of fighting is going to be a generally fruitless endeavor. They've also got Ynnead above them, Malice who feeds off of them, and the Emperor who's a bit stronger than them, albeit waning in strength. The Chaos Gods biggest weakness, by far, is their inability to cooperate. It's been often suggested that if the Chaos Gods actually worked together and stopped getting in one another's way, the Emperor would no longer be able to hold them back and all would fall to chaos. Ynnead would never get to form, and they'd ultimately win out. Notice how the greatest threats came from those rare moments where Chaos comes together. Look at how Horus severely wounded the Emperor, necessitating the usage of that 1-A erasure that would bind him to the throne for millenia to come. Look at Abaddon and his black crusades, a man who managed to gain the favor of all four chaos gods. Their contradictory nature is their downfall, and why they haven't already won.

Ahzek Ahriman:
While he's powerful, his life sucks. Ahzek Ahriman started out as being one of the oldest space marines, and one of the few Thousand Sons that were around before Magnus was found to survive the effects of the warp distorting most of them into hideous shapes. His twin brother was not so lucky. He didn't like how other chapters had all this blind faith in the emperor without any knowledge on the subject to back it up, and would fight for the future of mankind, not the emperor as so many others did. He also didn't have complete faith in his primarch, unlike so many others did, as he saw that Magnus could not avert the flesh change, and earlier on lead a search party for him when he just disappeared for a while. He would go on to learn that Magnus had been messing around with the powers of the warp, but Magnus found out about his prying and erased that bit of knowledge from his mind. He would re learn this later on, also discovering a lot of other stuff that Magnus was hiding. It was due to all of this that when Magnus ordered the Thousand Sons to stand down and accept their deaths at the hands of the space wolves (The heresey had started by now), Ahzek disobeyed, rallying a defense of Prospero while constantly imploring Magnus to join the fight. Despite all this, Magnus stayed out of it, and the Thousand sons were falling to the might of the Space wolves. As Ahriman prepared one final last stand, he would enter the mind of Ohthere Wyrdmake, his former friend who was a major part in convincing the emperor to ban Psykers. He shared with him the knowledge of Horus's deception, the scapegoating of the Thousand Sons and how the Space wolves were sent to obliterate them to keep them out of the way, but just as he was to release him, and possibly stop this carnage, he looked around, saw the Space Wolves torching all he knew and loved, saw his homeland being desecrated, saw Russ butchering Thousand sons, and in that moment would fall to rage and vengeance (he saw Wyrdmake as responsible for this in large part due to his condemnation of psykers), destroying his soul before it could even fall to the daemons of the warp. While he realized what he had done, and how he could possibly have stopped all of this had he not given in to anger, he decides that the Thousand Sons are basically ****** by now, and accepts that they, and he, are simply fated to be destroyed. However, Magnus finally shows up and starts fighting with Russ, transferring The Book of Magnus (a relinquary of basically everything Magnus knew about magic at the time), his prediction of Ahriman's survival, a lot of power (with Ahriman already being an extremely powerful psyker, Magnus's boost helps explain just how strong he is considering this is before millenia of powering up), and one last spell. Ahriman warped himself and all the remaining thousand sons offworld, leaving Magnus to lose his duel and make a pact with Tzeentch to live. This was his life up to the Horus Hersey.

Now, could he have averted the Horus Hersey entirely if he didn't spitefully kill that one guy? No. Eldrad had already tried to warn the Emperor himself of what was to come, as did Magnus. It didn't matter. However, if he was able to share this knowledge with the others and the Space Wolves, there is the possibility things could have gone differently. The Thousand Sons may not have fallen to Tzeentch, which means Magnus and him wouldn't be huge issues, the Space Wolves may have been able to have been diverted to somewhere that they actually should be, rather than being on a wild goose chase at Prospero, and the Horus Hersey may not have put the Imperium in such a dire state. Of course, this is all speculation and what with it being Tzeentch and all stuff would have likely gone this way regardless, but this still weighs on Ahriman, as he still kinda feels responsible and in some way wishes he could still serve the Imperium. He doesn't like Chaos, he sees it as a way to gain power. (which to be fair, he's right about.) His ultimate goal is to usurp Tzeentch via finding the black library. Needless to say, this is not gonna happen. There's more, but I'd recommend just reading his books tbh.

As for a defeat, there was the time he lost to Yvraine after getting them into a position where he could have killed her and her entire party easily. He ended up BFRing her, the Yncarne, and the Visarch into his own corner of the webway where he was nearly all powerful. To get them out of there, Yvraine exploited the fact that he still deeply cares for his rubricae brothers and how much he desires a way to undo his mistake. She rezzed a few, showing him that she can help him which gets him to let them out of his weird space so they can try to rez the rest of the legion. Instead, Yvraine proceeds to punt them in to the warp and get the hell out of there, as she knows that Ahzek would be driven to save them over chasing her down.

Also, Psykers remotely as strong as him are super rare in verse.

Jill Presto:
Her story isn't really about fighting. To quote Sandman:

Yeah, Jills story isnt about fighting or anything like that. She only used her powers offensively twice which was when she killed a bunch of neo nazis who beat up her gay friend and when she destroyed Cestis with her mind hax. I think Lephyr already explained what Jill's story is about. Her life is sh*t, Innocence appeared and said that the Basanos can make her life better if she accepts to be their host. Then the rest is about her struggles against the Basanos, her quest to remove the baby in her stomach (She was raped and impregnated by the Basanos) and her relationship with her daugther, Noema. She's also quite gutsy. She called Lucifer a son of a b*tch face to face despite being warned by the Basanos and the Basanos themselves being afraid of Lucifer.

Culexus Assassins:
Culexus assassins are first balanced out by being few in number due to being rare to be born as is, and rarer to be found before their parents kill or abandon them due to being blanks. They also have to be found by the right branch, otherwise they're just put to death. Even regular assassins are a huge investment in resources, to say nothing of a Culexus.

First, one must understand the measuring system used to measure Psykers. Capping out at Alpha (Though some, like the emperor, Magnus, Malcador, and Eldrad exceed the scale and are Alpha Plus), and continuing all the way down through the greek alphabet. It's basically a measure of your presence in the warp, and consequentally how strong you are as a psyker. However, at levels below Sigma, the individual starts to be more of an "Anti warp presence", effectively being soulless. The further down you go the more of a void you become, and this continues all the way down to a few such individuals to be known as "Untouchables". While one in a million may be born a psyker, one in a billion may be born a blank, and even fewer to a dangerous level. There have been noted Omega Minus psykers, which, short of the likes of the Alpha plusses, basically spell doom to any psyker who faces them. Daemons in the warp die to their presence, Ahzek Ahrima got horrific seizures and spasms just from astral projecting too close to one, and in large numbers they managed to block out the Emperor's Astronomicon, making safe warp travel impossible. They are bred and raised specifically to kill, acting as one of humanity's trump cards against other factions, especially psychic ones. Sounds busted as ****, right? Well, there are some things to balance this out.

First of all, these things are seen as abominations by the majority of the Imperium as well, in many ways worse than psykers. While due to our site you may be getting a skewed view of psykers, remember that generally while they can be destructive, they can be contained and killed by the imperium without too much sweat. Beta and above is incredibly rare, and even alphas vary. The Burning Princess is an alpha level, for instance. The shit Ahriman pulls off? Even by the standards of Alpha levels, he's top of the classification. By now he likely borders on Alpha plus all things considered, though he's got other stuff going for him as described. Blanks however, you don't even need to be a strong blank to cause issues. They mess with human minds, causing irrational fear, paranoia, hatred, etc in the minds of regular people, and for psykers they are far worse. Low level blanks get it the worst: Not strong enough to be a Culexus, but won't really be making any friends or positive human connections. As a result, they tend to live sad and short lives. Culexus candidates are often the victims of infanticide due to the sheer strength of the tangible wrongness the baby will emit. Much of the imperium wanted them eradicted, and officially they were. It's likely that in the imperium, only Malcador the Sigillite, founder of the project and second only to the emperor, The emperor, the Culexus assassins themselves, and the Directors Primus of each temple even know that they're a thing and that Malcador didn't actually have every one killed. Even in current they're illegal and accept that they may be killed by most of the imperium if they're found. Being very strong in fights doesn't preclude your life from having other serious issues.

Second of all, their numbers are limited. As said above, they're really rare to begin with, illegal, usually killed at birth, and don't lead very happy lives. You know the Imperium, the same organization that uses slave labour to load Titan weapons even though it could easily be done with tech because among other things, humans are a really plentiful resource? How they often just throw more and more imperial guards to die against a clearly far superior foe, because they're expendable? How its emperor has likely personally killed billions, and far, far more indirectly? Well, Culexuses are a way more limited resource than that. The Imperium's population numbers in the trillions, maybe even quadrillions, yet I'd estimate that the numbers of the Culexuses likely don't break 5 digits. Note how after a strike force of every type of assassin failed to kill Abaddon, marking the first operation (Excluding Leigenstrasse, which was a strange scenario) where a Culexus assassin failed (Ahriman wasn't a target, he just got really unlucky with where he projected himself), they didn't send any more. They gave up, and the Culexus temple regards Abaddon as impossible to assassinate. This is because, unlike the imperial guard or even the space marines, they cannot afford heavy losses due to the scarcity of Culexus assasins. So if you're wondering why these dudes aren't used more often, here you go. It can take a temple years to replace the losses of an Execution force, and considering how long term much of 40k's stuff is, years is really meaningful.

In short, while they may be one of humanity's best weapons, and a terrifying hidden superweapon to the psychic races, they are balanced out by things not applicable to vs battles. Deploying even one is a far bigger commitment than deploying an army of the imperial guard, and while they may be amazing killers, that is literally all they can do with their lives. I like them because I find the concept of users who's ability is to break the rules of their verse an interesting one, if done well. I personally like their powerset as well, since I'm a fan of abilities like Durability Negation, Statistics Reduction, and Power Nullification that bring strong opponents down rather than buffing their user, but that's not the only reason or even main reason for them, or blanks in general, being a very interesting part of the verse for me. To ignore the mystique and secrecy surrounding them, the fact that they're treated as akin to superweapons with a huge cost in resources, and the fact that being a blank is generally horrible just because they pretty easily kill some of your favorite characters is a pretty bad stance to take.

In short, even if you view them by their powers, which others point out is not wise, you need to remember that a lot of the balancing factors for dudes like this are simply not applicable for vs debating, and as such you don't often see what makes their powerset reasonable. Ofc a superweapon that's one of the best kept secrets of the imperium will be insane, that is what it is. Comes with all the drawbacks of that status as well. I'm pretty sure that that sort of thing applies to a lot of characters like this.

If that doesn't satisfy you, then here's a vsbattles applicable weakness: Their powers scale to their opponents. The more powerful/haxxed an enemy is, the more intense their aura. This also works against them, however. Psyk-Out grenades, also a very finite resource, to say the least, are absolutely useless against people without that sort of powerset. There's also their relatively low durability, at "only" being superior to space marines. While even if you're not like that, its hard to fight something you can't really see, sometimes phases through your attacks, can absorb attacks, messes with your head, and can end you with a touch or blast, with sufficient skill and physical strength they're not impossible to kill. Someone like Sigismund or pre heresy Khârn the Betrayer or even likely some chapter masters could probably beat them.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Despite them basically being immune to precog and being one of the imperium's deepest secrets, an Eldar Farseer once did find the location of their temple. He sent a ship to destroy it, but then with his precog learned that doing that would have caused something way worse than the existence of the Culexus Assasin (I think a craftworld would get destroyed or something I don't really remember), so he had to recall the ship and not tell anyone about the location. Even in terms of stuff not applicable to vs battles, they're not invincible, as the Eldar, the race hit the hardest by them, would have been able to destroy them if there wasn't any other consequence.

Hive Gods (Warpriest, Daughters, Oryx, etc):
So basically, much of the power of the hive comes from the Sword Logic. Its pretty complicated, and I need to make a blog eventually, but what's relevant here is that by killing you can inheret your victim's power and thus all the power they've inherited from their kills, and if you're superior your law is as well. Warpriest is one of Oryx's oldest lieutenants, being probably billions of years old, and also one of the best. He was able to learn how to make Oversouls just by watching Crota for one thing. Due to his law he's immune to anything the Guardian can do until you do the raid mechanic to temporarily drop his invulnerability.

The reason this is even possible is due to how the Sword Logic works. The thing is, PC Guardians are one of the few things that can compare to a billions of years old hive god in terms of death because of the prep you've done for the raid. While the Guardian has definitely killed a lot of people over the course of the game, that alone wouldn't compare to WP who burns 585 worlds in a day. What does is the powerful entities you've felled. Consider Atheon. Consider Crota, the son of Oryx himself, who once singlehandedly slaughtered thousands of Guardians. Not only do you kill him, you even absorb his soul at a later date to become Ascendant. Before the Raid, Eris has you go around killing basically every notable hive or Taken left after Oryx retreats to the Ascendant Realm. There's 3 reasons for this:

  • This indirectly weakens Oryx. The Oryx you fight is not at his full power, Raid or not, due to how you've killed basically every other Hive worth a damn first.
  • This lowers the chance that Oryx can get a successor and therefore proc his type 6.
  • This boosts the sword logic of the Guardian dramatically. By killing these Hive champions, you inherit every death from what they've killed, adding on to your own. In doing this, you're now more or less comparable to the Warpriest.
So in the actual raid, Warpriest starts out invincible as usual, and the mechanic to stop that opens up after killing a bunch of dudes. This is because by the time you're ready to assault the Ascendant Realm of Oryx, you're close enough to the Warpriest in terms of this that you don't need that many more kills to override him. As such, his invincibility is disabled so long as the brand holder keeps killing enemies (you can just look up a Warpriest guide to see the mechanic if you want). However, after a while of taking damage, if he's still alive he battlefield wipes with the Occulus, killing anything not in the shadow of one of 3 pillars. This includes other hive. This bumps him back up to invincible.

Basically, throughout the fight, there's a tug of war going on between the two parties for who is superior in the eyes of the Sword Logic, and by winning you can hurt and kill him. No resistance or PIS or whatever shenanigans here, all it is is using the fact that the Sword Logic is a neutral ability (the Hive are just best at it) to your own advantage. The mechanic of the hax itself is what allows Guardians to win. Ofc its pretty insane on site since not a lot of people kill that many dudes nor have some higher dimensional lawhax or whatever, but it's limited by itself in verse, and the fact that anyone can do it.

So, funny enough there is a puzzle right before the Warpriest where if you mess up, you get killed by the Deathsingers.

Deathsingers are the second to last raid boss. Remember the whole sword logic explanation on Warpriest? Deathsingers are after him and another boss, Golgoroth. The Light also flows into the Guardian in the face of adversity, so they're drawing on more of their power than they ever have before at that point, excluding maybe the other raid bosses. As such, they can hold out against dying to the singing of the Deathsingers for a minute. That minute is all you need, and it makes for a frantic but quick encounter once you know what to do.

So in the beginning, someone gets BFR/Pnulled with the "Torn Between Dimensions" debuff. However, due to a combination of Sword Logic and Light, with the assistance of their fireteam that Guardian is able to assert their existence and resync themselves with the ascendant plane, and from there steal the Aura of Immortality of one of the Daughters. That means that Daughter actually takes damage now, and they don't have as much health as the other bosses so you can burn them down pretty fast. The nice thing about stealing the aura besides that is it actually gives it to you, and you and your teammates inside it are immune to everything. This includes the deathsong of the second daughter, so she can't even stop you from killing her sister. Do this again, and the daughters are dead.

Kairos Fateweaver:
To preface this, Kairos Fateweaver is the strongest tzeentchian daemon. Including the likes of Magnus. Kairos is basically a minor god in his own right as is, acting as an extension of Tzeentch and probably being superior to some of the actual minor chaos gods. So Kairos being insane makes sense given it's status. While nowhere near as strong in the materium, it's still around the same level as current primarchs, if slightly weaker physically.

So for one thing, Tzeentch can see the past and (almost) all of the present perfectly, but future is more difficult and Tzeentch can't see it with 100% accuracy at his level. Tzeentch wants to be able to do this, so he goes to the well of eternity. However, it contains secrets even tzeentch doesn't know about, and tzeentch doesn't want to try to enter it himself, so he starts sending his strongest Lord's of change. Kairos was the only one to survive, and came out mutated giving him the extra head. One sees the past perfectly, one sees the future perfectly, but he can't see the present (pretty easy to fill in the blanks yeah but we'll get to that). Since Kairos now knows things even tzeentch doesn't know, it generally makes a lot more sense to keep it in the warp as an oracle to help out Tzeentch then it does to send him to obliterate a battlefield, because mass destruction isn't unique to Kairos while this perfect future sight is.

Now the fact that Kairos doesn't fight that often due to being more important elsewhere already serves as a non applicable weakness, if you want something more applicable its weirdly enough his precog. You know how I said that he can't properly perceive the present? While ordinarily that's easily filled in, with the absurd levels of skill and experience Warhammer characters have that small lapse can matter immensely. Basically, if you can close the gap and are comparable to him, which you'd need to do to have survived his everything, you'll probably win the fight. Khornate daemons comparable to Kairos like Skarbrand should win a melee fight, Abaddon the Despoiler should win even discounting Chaos God interference, Roboute Guillima was clearly too much for Kairos to actually try fighting fairly with and as such Kairos won through being a shining example of what it means to be Tzeentch, etc. Of course he's far from a pushover in melee. He's still scaling to gigafoe, can warp opponents into Chaos Spawn with a touch, precog that amazing is still precog, but he's not unbeatable. I realize that this is more a weakness in the sense of "it is possible to defeat Kairos Fateweaver at all" rather than a "doing this means you will easily defeat Kairos Fateweaver" but when you're basically the hand of a god, your opponents will take what they can get.

Third, Kairos is kind of a (apparently fandom doesn't like female dogs). If Kairos takes a good hit, he usually just leaves the fight entirely. While its smart to not want to stick around when you're as important as Kairos and there exist weapons like Vulkan's hammer, Gorechild, the Emprah's sword and some others that can permakill you even from the materium, it does mean that scaring Kairos off is viable for people that would have no hope of killing him in a prolonged fight. Once he got hit, was like "wtf Tzeentch why are you gimping my precog **** this I'm not fighting under these conditions" and left to go yell at Tzeentch I guess. Tzeentch intentionally messing with his servants also extends to Kairos even though Kairos is a part of Tzeentch in the literal sense as well. None of his servants are equipped with the means to actually complete Tzeentch by gathering all his missing pieces, as that has the potential to make them stronger than even he (Especially with Kairos already being basically a minor god).

Kairos is used more as an oracle of sorts then for combat if he's in the material. There's this thing going on with the heads that's pretty interesting. One head will tell something about the future that is definitely true, barring the intervention of something like The Emperor, and the other head will tell something incredibly false, which usually results in some horrible fate for the listener should they heed it. Both prophecies will would equally true to the listener. Kairos was used to manipulate Lorgar into joining Chaos (though this was the one time both heads told the genuine truth), manipulate Ahriman into doing a lot of stuff, Kairos manipulated Skarbrand into trying to fight Khorne, manipulated a thousand son into changing a line in The Book of Magnus, and a lot of other things.
 
Hax no bad all time there you happy

There's a table of contents for a reason lol
 
Romeo (Minecraft)

This one's relatively simple.

The world is being closed by bedrock so they invade his own personal pocket dimension.

They find a lil' Gauntlet which can take away the powers of the Admin.

Romeo gets cocky cause he's kinda pretty much god and lets himself get punched in the face.

Once he's done being punched in the face he decides "alright, time to instantly kill you all now."

He claps his hands and jack shit happens since that first punched conveniently sucked out all of his overpowered powers.

Fight continues until you power null all of his powers.
 
former
 
Also

Asriel Dreemurr: You have your own powers that make you REFUSE TO DIE and you eventually reach into his SOUL and SAVE him and talk him down.

Flowey: The SOULs betray him leaving him defenseless and you being able to punch him until the weed's screen breaks.

Tsumugi Shirogane: Okay, okay, not OP. But she's practically unbeatable in the context of the game. You beat her by causing the ratings to go down and for people to stop watching the show. Danganronpa.

Bill Cipher: Trapped into Stan's mind and was erased. Makes sense in context cause he is a dream demon.
 
I don't really support any verses that have overpowered enemies/villains. Gruntilda's strong but gets hit by the CIS/PIS stick one too many times. The game that showed her at her best imo was Banjo-Tooie. But it goes to show that even when she was weakened to the point of being pretty much a living corpse, she was powerful and relentless enough to not be beaten by anything Banjo & Kazooie threw at her; it was her own attack that did her in at the end.
 
The Ancestor

A bunch of dudes who resisted his stuff and persisted through came to his lair and eventually killed him... Only to meet his boss, which almost murdered them in retort, though, was also defeated.

.... For now, at least. It's a bit cosmic horrific. Not hardcorely so since the villian is beaten down, but.
 
Honestly I'd believe Jotaro having the same ability as DIO and HAD isn't an asspull if it was canonically states that Star Platinum's true ability has to copy the ability of DIO's stand
 
Reinhard Heydrich

Short Version:

A combination of Reinhard's mindset and desires allowing the main characters to live and grow stronger throughout the plot of the story and the main character obtaining an apotheosis at the same time as the villain, allowing them to fight on an equal standing, which is what Reinhard wants.

Long Version:

You'll need to understand Reinhard's character to understand his mindset, so this is going to be a long post.

[I will be explaining how the characters survive in the Marie and Rea route of the game. As in the Kasumi route, the characters never fight, and in Kei's route, Reinhard never becomes a god and the fight is kinda PIS-hy, but the protagainst ruin Reinhard's plans and run away.]

Reinhard, when he was human, was completely reserved, tactful, and professional in everything he did because he subconsciously knew that he was so much more powerful than everyone and everything and would destroy everyone and everything if he actually tried to do anything. You can imagine how maddeningly dull that kind of life would be.

"I led a life in which there was not a thing I could not do, not a rank I could not achieve, not an enemy I could not defeat, not a woman I could not bed, and no wealth I could not earn."

"I distanced myself from the thrill of men, labeling all as waste by the wayside as I passed through. I wished to love all and everything, yet none could withstand my love. Ah, why can't you endure my touch? If a mere graze upon your delicate skin sends you shattering to a myriad pieces, how can you hope to withstand my embrace? Such cruelty. Why must this world -from the tiniest blade of grass to the vastest of mountains- be so painfully fragile. So be it, then. My love shall take the form of destruction. I shall ravage so I can cherish. I adore the weak that bow before me, as well as the defeated that bend their knees. My love expands to the vassals that rebel, and those that mean me harm. I love all and everything. And so shall I lay waste to everything before me"

Reinhard is also cursed with Foreknowledge, not Precognition, but the sense that he has done what he is currently doing before, it's a sense of Déj├á vu. This is because Mercurius's Law is for the multiverse to repeat in an endless loop ad infinitum, in where everyone is destined to do the same things forever. And IIRC, because of Reinhard's nature in being Mercurius's Apoptosis, he is subconsciously aware that he has lived every moment that he is currently experiencing before. And when you feel like you've done everything before, absolute boredom takes the place of pride and joy.

"The feelings you call achievement, release, and satisfaction are completely alien to the heart that beats in my chest."

"And then, I realized that I lacked I lacked the delight, the excitement, and the hastening of the heart that any common man feels even upon crossing even the smallest of mountains."

After meeting with Mercurius, who shows Reinhard his true nature, Reinhard begins his quest into becoming a God, so he could be free from the curse of foreknowledge and build a creation in where he has to actually try to accomplish his desires.

"Prior to Karl (Mercurius), I used to be oblivious of this fact, as well as the bliss this meant. A foolish bliss, but bliss nonetheless."

"To be precise, there are two things I want. One is the manifestation of a situation that I would find difficult to overcome even with all my power. The other is the unknown that lies beyond that, though I know not which one will come first. The world we live in is not meant for me. Therefore, I will create and unleash one where I belong. I will summon a mountain that is worth the journey then traverse it."

[I'm going to skip explaining how Reinhard accomplishes this via a sacrificial ceremony for the sake of brevity. There are seals placed in the city that Ren lives in that are opened when a large mass of souls are reaped at said locations. All these seals being opened equals Reinhard becoming a god]

Ren Fuiji, the main character of Dies Irae, is an artificial lifeform created by Mercurius to facilitate the growth of Marie as a god and to be the one to give Reinhard the challenge he always desired. Mercurius tells Reinhard's that Ren is the one who will give Reinhard a challenging fight, and so Reinhard lets Ren continue to grow until all they both begin the to emanate their own individual laws which in turn lets Ren and Reinhard fight on equal terms.

Reinhard loves the fight immensely.

"'Ah, how my heart races within my chest. Truly, 'tis how it should be. You're not trying your best, he once told me. His words resembled those of a young boy blinded by delusions of omnipotence, but I, who those envisions actually rang true for, always felt like an outsider in this world. Nothing I beheld would ever move me. My heart was a stranger to true liberty, the thrill of victory; never have I felt satisfaction as men do when a great obstacle crumbles beneath their feet. Aye. Be it so, then. I shall become an avatar of that principle, showing the world the true essence of the monarch of destruction. And so I ravage, I absorb, and paint the cosmos anew in my color. The world fit for me to live in shall be born in its wake, bursting forth in a torrent, washing away the ancient order that once was."

Depending on the route, the fight comes down to an outerversal duel between philosophies and law between Ren & Reinhard; Ren, Reinhard, and Mercurius; or Reinhard and Mercurius.

In the fights where Ren fights, he is the victor, albeit barley.

In his final moments [In Marie's route], Reinhard congratulates Ren on his victory and thanks him for giving his life some meaning.

"I understand. You are prepared to claim my life at the cost of yours. I see. Excellent. The stake your all and unleash a strike befitting our finale. Two kinds of strength exists: One meant for others, another meant for oneself. Neither is inherently superior to the other, and the only difference lies in the extent of your beliefs. You either think yourself as absolute...or plead for the absoluteness of another. If you think yourself a knight of the goddess, temper that resolve to perfection. Do so, and you have earned my respect. I shall not belittle it. However, you must not disappoint me..."

"Why the grief? You and your comrades have emerged the victor. Let pride fill your heart and do not devalue my defeat. Tell me is the belief of others truly that important? If my lack of it had been the cause of my defeat, and the support you received the reason you have won...I implore you to prove it. Karl seems to have been defeated, as well...Heheheh...You must swear on it, for such is the duty of the victor. It is your obligation to demonstrate that our defeat was truly absolute. Fail to do so, and I will make my return. After all, it would mean I was never truly defeated. HEHEHEHEHE...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I bear no regrets, and I would prefer if you do not give me any. The strength responsible for my downfall must be the greatest of all. I would be thankful if you eased my heart with the belief I was not defeated by something trifling."


Well, that's basically it, I hope I explained just how and why the main character was able to accomplish and triumphed over Reinhard in Dies Irae. I'm severely sorry if I remember something inaccurately or if I confused you.

Not to mention making such a long post, although I felt it was kinda necessary.

I feel anyway that it makes sense and was done well.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Oh ok:

Ajimu Najimi and literally every Medaka villain starting from Misogi: PIS...a lot of it.

Akabane Kuroudo: Ban Midou

The Archiver: Ginji Amano

The Witch Quee: Self-Sacrifice

Limbo: He fuked himself over basically and then became a puppet and is now reking serious arse in the solar system

Sirzechs Lucifer: I mean 1) OP 2) Part of the good guys...i doubt he'll ever lose.

Ajuka Beelzebub: Read above
Click to expand...
Boi, you listed characters that would qualify but you didn't go into detail at all. If anything, you made them sound even more like Story Breaking Sues.
 
The real cal howard said:
Boi, you listed characters that would qualify but you didn't go into detail at all. If anything, you made them sound even more like Story Breaking Sues.
Click to expand...
Should i go into FULL details on how they lost?
 
Ajimu came across to me as a joke about PIS. She gets beat due to in universe plot armor, despite having quadrillions of skills including stuff like "become god" and "transcend dimensions".
 
Not characters on the wiki but here goes:

This is about the climactic battle between Rama and Ravana in the Ramayana. At the final day of war between Rama's monkey army and the demons of Lanka, Ravana stood alone against Rama and his army. He had lost everything he cared about. His city lay in ashes, his son dead, his sister humiliated and scarred for life, his mighty army routed, his brothers were dead (two literally and another figuratively). Now, there was no difference in power between him who lost everything and Rama who had nothing. He however didn't resent Rama for it and chose to blame himself and his arrogance and pride. For the first time in his life, Ravana, known for his arrogance and pride across the worlds, felt humbled. At this point, Ravana had had enough of losing what he loved. He just wanted the war to end, and he didn't want to do it by losing. Seeking to end the war immediately, he challenged Rama to single combat. Rama knew that fighting Ravana at close quarters was sheer suicide as Ravana owned Chandrahasa, Shiva's invincible sword of victory, gifted to Ravana by Shiva himself. Fancying his chances at range, Rama chose the bow as his weapon of choice. Rama also knew that Ravana was granted immortality by the gods, but on the condition that he kept the elixir of immortality on his self and not drink it. Ravana was immortal for as long as the elixir was on him and to keep it safe, he kept it in his navel. Rama concentrated his attack on Ravana's navel but due to the small target area, Ravana was easily able to intercept Rama's arrows. Stronger and stronger enchanted arrows Rama used, but to no avail. Ravana, who was the inferior archer between the two, was pushing Rama back. With arrows puncturing all parts of his body, Rama was on the ropes and had no option but to use his ultimate weapon, the Brahmastra. The Brahmastra is the weapon of the creator God Brahma and has the power to unmake creation. It is one of the strongest weapons in Hindu mythology and also the most commonly used divine weapon. Even Ravana had one of those but was unwilling to use it on a mere mortal. Rama shot his first. Ravana who had been gloating until then panicked and weighed his options. No weapon could deflect the incoming Brahmastra other than another Brahmastra. But there was a catch. When two Brahmastras clashed, the resulting destruction would unmake all of creation and return everything to the primordial chaos. Ravana thought about actually doing it, just to spite Rama, and by extension Vishnu the Preserver of Creation. He held an extended inner monologue with himself on whether the universe was greater or his ego. Ultimately, better judgement prevailed and he resigned himself to his fate and decided to take the hit.

And thus, the mighty, immortal and invincible Lord of Lanka fell in battle. He, who lived his life based around his pride and ego, lost it by abandoning them.
 
Altair: No one stops her. The only reason she doesn't erase reality is because they gave her someone to care about and not destroy everything because of.
 
Notto


Lucemon: Was literally stomping everyone. Lost to Susanoomon. This was also before SGDL as a concept was truly expanded upon. He basically got defeated by someone who he could not kill and was stronger than him. In S:AM he was defeated by the DATS crew due to them having all the SGDL powers....including his own.

Apocalymon: PIS.

Mother Eater: Allowed himself to be lose.

Yggdrasil: Allowed herself to lose....everytime.

N.E.O: Allowed himself to lose and basically disappeared on his own terms. Mostly an in character loss.

Ordinemon: We don't talk about TRI.
 
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