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Chaos Force Type 5 Acausality

ShadowWarrior1999

ShadowWarrior1999

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3,488
Introduction

I’ve been doing some research on type 5 acausality looking through various threads and profiles of characters that have it. From what my understanding of it is, to be type 5 you must be outside of causality and demonstrate that others cannot interact with you normally, which makes conventional attacks against you meaningless. With that criteria established, I think the Chaos Force could qualify for having it.

Transcending Next Evolution

The Next Evolution is a higher plane of existence above physical reality. It serves as an afterlife for the deceased spirits of the Brotherhood of Guardians. Beings from the Next Evolution, such as Mathias view the concept of time as being irrelevant to them. In context as described in the next panel, it refers to how Mathias transcended his physical form and entered the higher plane, that being Next Evolution. This is also demonstrated by their ability to freely travel through time, as shown by Hawking following his death and ascension. This would make Next Evolution spirits acausal by nature due to being outside the linear flow of time, and the Chaos Force is transcendent over the Next Evolution.

Genesis Wave Alteration of History/Causality

During the events of Worlds Collide, Eggman and Wily aimed to use the Genesis Wave to rewrite the entire Archieverse. The Second Genesis Wave is able to rearrange events across past, present, and future on a multiversal scale. It can also bend, cheat, and rewrite the rules of reality. Note that the Chaos Force has been unaffected at this point. It’s not until the Super Genesis Wave/Super Sonic’s botched Chaos Control that the Chaos Force is affected and nuked from existence. The Chaos Force not being affected until that point goes to how it transcends physical reality and so its laws do not apply to it, including causality as altering past, present, and future had no effect on the Chaos Force.

Chaos Force Deities Interaction Near-Impossible

Now even with all the prior information in mind, all of that would only by type 4 acausality at best without this crucial factor that determines whether a character can qualify for type 5 acausality. That is showing they are unable to be interacted with normally. This however, can be demonstrated to be the case with Chaos Force deities. They are stated to be far beyond the comprehension of normal beings. Beings on the transcendental Next Evolution also cannot see them. In addition, the Chaos Force deity Aurora states that she can only be perceived how others can imagine her, as her true nature is incomprehensible to them, hence why Knuckles sees her as an echidna. Only special artifacts like the Sword of Acorns and super states, which are powered by Chaos Emeralds, direct physical manifestations of the Chaos Force are shown to be capable of interacting with it.

Conclusion

Chaos Force deities would have their acausality upgraded to type 5. Super forms and the Sword of Acorns would be capable of interacting with type 5 acausals. Additionally, the Chaos Energy page would be updated containing the explanation for type 5 acausality.

Side Note: Chaos Force deities should additionally have their ages listed as immeasurable. As their very state of existence transcends past, present, and future, the notion of age which is inherently reliant on time does not apply to them.
 
That's not how Acausality type 5 works man.

Entering another plane of reality doesn't mean Acausality type 5.

Where you got that from?
 
Yemma670 said:
That's not how Acausality type 5 works man.

Entering another plane of reality doesn't mean Acausality type 5.

Where you got that from?
Click to expand...
I’d take it that you probably skimmed through the thread because I did not say entering another plane gives you type 5. The parts about it transcending reality are used as supporting evidence.
 
1. Transcending reality doesn't give you Acausality type 5 by default without supporting evidence. Otherwise we'd be handing it out to anyone of that sort

2. I'm not seeing anything that mentions laws of causality at all. You're just interpretating it how you want

The Chaos Force not being affected until that point goes to how it transcends physical reality and so its laws do not apply to it,
Click to expand...
But he was still affected

In conclusion, all I'm seeing is Acausality type 4🐧
 
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Yemma670 said:
2. I'm not seeing anything that mentions laws of causality at all. You're just interpretating it how you want
Click to expand...
Causality Manipulation: Chaos Energy can be used to rearrange and rewrite the past, present, and future, altering the timeline that can be induced on a multiversal scale (Which is infinite) provided enough Chaos Energy is in use.

This scales just below Super Forms.

Super Sonic, Super Shadow, and Super Silver's attacks struck and damaged Solaris throughout all points in time.

@ShadowWarrior1999 Add this to the OP
 
I'm out here wondering, how does that prove this
Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality transcend the normal boundaries of cause and effect, existing outside of the causality of a system. Even interacting with them normally may prove virtually impossible.
Click to expand...
You're basically trying to use the already accepted acausality type 4 to get Acausality type 5. Just, no
 
Back now, so I can post my response.
Yemma670 said:
1. Transcending reality doesn't give you Acausality type 5 by default without supporting evidence. Otherwise we'd be handing it out to anyone of that sort
Click to expand...
By itself, yes I agree that it would not grant type 5 acausality. But that’s not the argument. It’s that it transcends a plane which already views the concept of time as irrelevant, in which beings from there are unable to perceive the Chaos Force. Basically you have normal reality < Next Evolution (sees the concept of time as irrelevant) < Chaos Force.


2. I'm not seeing anything that mentions laws of causality at all. You're just interpretating it how you want
Click to expand...
You don’t need to specifically mention causality to get type 5, synonymous statements that would imply being outside causality can suffice. The Second Genesis Wave alters the laws of reality and manipulates causality by changing the past, present, and future. This supports the Chaos Force viewing the concept of time as irrelevant as it was unaffected by this.

But he was still affected

In conclusion, all I'm seeing is Acausality type 4
🐧
Click to expand...
Only by the Super Genesis Wave, which is far more potent than the first two Genesis Waves which the second already has the power to alter past, present, and future on a multiversal scale.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Back now, so I can post my response.

By itself, yes I agree that it would not grant type 5 acausality. But that’s not the argument. It’s that it transcends a plane which already views the concept of time as irrelevant, in which beings from there are unable to perceive the Chaos Force. Basically you have normal reality < Next Evolution (sees the concept of time as irrelevant) < Chaos Force.
Click to expand...
Unable to perceive ≠ Acausality type 5.

We should start giving Acausality type 5 to all characters who exist in higher planes then
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
You don’t need to specifically mention causality to get type 5, synonymous statements that would imply being outside causality can suffice. The Second Genesis Wave alters the laws of reality and manipulates causality by changing the past, present, and future. This supports the Chaos Force viewing the concept of time as irrelevant as it was unaffected by this.
Click to expand...
Viewing the concept of time as irrelevant doesn't mean Acausality type 5

Being unaffected by changes in past present future doesnt mean anything at all to type 5.

You're still using Acausality type 4 here man
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
Only by the Super Genesis Wave, which is far more potent than the first two Genesis Waves which the second already has the power to alter past, present, and future on a multiversal scale.
Click to expand...
Potency? What does that have to do with the laws of cause and effect?

If you can't give a proper explanation as to why the Chaos thing was affected, after supposedly being beyond causal relations, then I guess no one in sonic gets Type 5 at all
 
It must also be taken into account that there are multiple levels of Casuality because there maybe different casual systems independent of the others, where being one does not allow you to affect the other at all via Casuality Hax.
 
Yemma670 said:
If you can't give a proper explanation as to why the Chaos thing was affected, after supposedly being beyond causal relations, then I guess no one in sonic gets Type 5 at all
Click to expand...
It’s it’s own power tho. 1 Chaos Emerald evolved Knuckles to a Chaos Force being. 7 destroyed it. That is a proper explanation.

Do you perhaps have an explanation for why it shouldn’t be capable of hurting itself?
 
I wasn't addressing that line of thinking. I was addressing "If you can't give a proper explanation as to why the Chaos thing was affected, after supposedly being beyond causal relations, then I guess no one in sonic gets Type 5 at all".

It affected itself and I'm waiting for a counter/reasonable disagreement from you on that.
 
ElixirBlue said:
It affected itself and I'm waiting for a counter/reasonable disagreement from you on that.
Click to expand...
Huh, Someone who was beyond causal laws was able to be interacted with? With no proof of the person interacting with it being type 5 in the first place ?

Yeah. We ain't leaving here with type 5 then
 
? Ookk, that was very sudden, matter-of-fact judgement out of nowhere.

I guess we'll wait for another member to converse with. I'm not a fan of this style of conversation,
 
So from what I understand Acausality Type 5 is coming from the premise that the Chaos Force is transcendent of Acausality Type 4 beings, beings beyond time and its concept. On top of that, it's difficult to interact with and appears mostly as people imagine it to appear as it's beyond their comprehension.

Now I'm not really seeing a lot of evidence for being beyond/lacking causality, just being more Acausal than others who are of Acausality Type 4. The fact the Chaos Force was affected by Causality Manipulation should be utterly impossible by the definition of Acausality Type 5. The only reason it shouldn't is if the Super Genesis Wave can affect Acausality Type 5, which would require evidence or it was of higher dimensionality and therefore effecting Cause and Effect beyond the Chaos Forces scope.

Anyway I'll be following to see what other people say but for now I don't agree.
 
Last edited:
ActuallySpaceMan said:
So from what I understand Acausality Type 5 is coming from the premise that the Chaos Force is transcendent of Acausality Type 4 beings, beings beyond time and its concept. On top of that, it's difficult to interact with and appears mostly as people imagine it to appear as it's beyond their comprehension.

Now I'm not really seeing a lot of evidence for being beyond/lacking causality, just being more Acausal than others who are of Acausality Type 4. The fact the Chaos Force was affected by Causality Manipulation should be utterly impossible by the definition of Acausality Type 5. The only reason it shouldn't is if the Super Genesis Wave can affect Acausality Type 5, which would require evidence or it was of higher dimensionality and therefore effecting Cause and Effect beyond the Chaos Forces scope.

Anyway I'll be following to see what other people say but for now I don't agree.
Click to expand...
Yeah that’s the premise of it.

The Chaos Force isn’t affected by causality manipulation, which is what I showed by what the Second Genesis Wave does. Eggman states that while the single Chaos Emerald-fueled Genesis Waves could bend and cheat the rules of reality, the Super Genesis Wave has no limits and will reshape everything else. Hence that one was able to affect the Chaos Force unlike the previous waves.
 
Considering Zencha is the one that got Digimon to Type 5 and because I suck at the specifics for Type 5 in general, I'm more comfortable giving my full agreement with the thread now.
 
personally i think all this just gives a much higher type 4 than the previous one, since there are not many mentions about casuality or time connected to this one, it needs much more detailed feats to get type 5
 
Still disagree, this is just Acausality Type 4 at best. Being transcendent in a Tier 1 way and not being able to be perceived by lower dimensional beings is not evidence of Acausality Type 5.
 
Being beyond time and space does not get you Acsuality Type 5. Direct mentions of causality/cause and effect is needed for Acausality Type 5.
 
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