Higher-Dimensional Raven/Spider?

[Zenkaibattery1]

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2734612

According to Andy, Prom and Ryukama this is 5-D so I'll bring it to a CRT thread

https://imgur.com/a/OrlJzia

https://imgur.com/a/zwZ1c6g

https://imgur.com/a/LD8r9OO

"To our limited perceptions, time is a line, from past to future, life and death, they look like two different things, but they' are not. From outside a mortal vantage point, existence is a flattened circle. Raven created the ring of mandella to remind us of this forever"

"Time is an illusion, look beyond it, and you will see that existence is a (flattened) wheel. Step of the wheel, and see the great paradox, Life and Death, Order and Chaos, Light and Shadow: Outside our limited perceptions they are one"

Essentially, she created the rings of Mandella to remind mortals that from her (Beyond mortal perception) time is an illusion, and beyond the illusion of time, existence as a whole is a flattened wheel, and that she is beyond even that wheel of existence that views time as an illusion and is beyond it. Wouldn't being transcended to time-space and existence as a whole + outside life and death be higher dimensional? ; Viewing time and existence as a flattened circle, existing beyond everything etc.

THIS WILL ONLY BE APPLIED TO THE GODS. Everyone below them are being downgraded to 2-C

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This is a metaphor

 

[Kepekley23]

"Time is an illusion" most likely refers to the fact that time is a human construct.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also this doesn't state that Raven transcends existence.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

How is it a metaphor? Raven herself explained this to the inhabitants of Mandella, and the wheel of existence played a major role in the story. It was used to tell The CaC/The Player how existence operates

@Kep

Raven (or Bartleby) are the one (s) who created the concept of time for the spiral. Throughout a few instances in the game, they call time insignificant among other things. Even disregarding that, this was a message from Raven to human's, she clearly see's time as an actual thing

Not only is this in the main story line, it's also in side missions, and WoG says this will be used later on in the story to expand characters and cosmology

Edit: The main argument is that she views time and existence as a flattened circle, and exists beyond the two

 

[Promestein]

Higher-dimensional seems possible, yes.

 

[Andytrenom]

I would put this at 5-D minimum. 6-D if we take this to mean the entity transcends time the way we transcend a one dimensional line.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

5-D is whats being discussed yes.

 

[Elizhaa]

Higher-dimensional seems possible, yes.

I, as a well.

I also don't see why the 2-B god tiers like The Player (Wizard101) and The Storm Tita, etc should be High 2-A since they can affect these characters or fight them

Not applying the upgrade to them if this OP is accepted would mess up the Tiering scaling to me.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The Scans seem to imply that Raven sees Existence as a flattened wheel because that's what it truly is, not because she transcends it to such a degree it appears as a 2-dimensional plane from her perspective.

They even state that she made the Ring of Mandalla to remind Mortals of this truth, so this is most likely a characteristic inherent to Existence itself, not a result of Raven's "transcendence" over it.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

I also don't see why the 2-B god tiers like The Player (Wizard101) and The Storm Tita, etc should be High 2-A since they can affect these characters or fight them

Not applying the upgrade to them if this OP is accepted would mess up the Tiering scaling to me.

The Player only fought a weakened avatar of Grandfather Spider. The Storm Titan scales to the Chaos Heart which would destroy existence, not Raven viewing time and existence as a flattened circle. Furthermore, The Storm Titan only harmed weakened Avatars of Raven and Spider, with The Bat stating Spider and Raven haven't actually manefested their true bodies in Empryea, and WoG said Raven could "Snap us away faster than a Thanos finger click" if she was in her true form

Edit: So no, this wouldn't scale to them. The Storm Titan and The Player scale to The Chaos Heart

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Being 4D would already make you higher-dimensional.

As for them being 5D? Could be, but I'm not too sure.

 

[Elizhaa]

Ok, Zenkai, thanks for the clarification.

Regarding the transcendence statement, we have accepted dimensional viewing statement for Higher-Dimensional Existence like with statements for World of Darkness and Umineko no Naku Koro ni's gameboard transcendence like with Maria Ushiromiya

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Scans seem to imply that Raven sees Existence as a flattened wheel because that's what it truly is, not because she transcends it to such a degree it appears as a 2-dimensional plane from her perspective.
They even state that she made the Ring of Mandalla to remind Mortals of this truth, so this is most likely a characteristic inherent to Existence itself, not a result of Raven's "transcendence" over it.

I strongly agree with Ultima Boy and by extension with Everlasting.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

The Scans seem to imply that Raven sees Existence as a flattened wheel because that's what it truly is, not because she transcends it to such a degree it appears as a 2-dimensional plane from her perspective.
They even state that she made the Ring of Mandalla to remind Mortals of this truth, so this is most likely a characteristic inherent to Existence itself, not a result of Raven's "transcendence" over it.

That's not what existence truly is though. Existence is the universe and everything in it. Stopping Raven and Spider from destroying existence was the puprose of Empryea. Throughout the entirety of the scans they refer it as two seperate perspectives. Theres the perspective of mortals, and there is persepctive of Raven

From mortals perspective: Time goes from past to future, like a line. As the statement itself says.

"To our limited perceptions, time is a line, from past to future, life and death, they look like two different things, but they' are not"

From Raven's perspective: Time, the line going from past to future is an illusion. Beyond time, exists existence as a wheel, which is is unbound by and exists beyond

"From outside a mortal vantage point [Outside mortal persepctive], existence is a flattened circle. Raven created the ring of mandella to remind us of this forever"

She is clearly showing her superiority to mortals, time and existence. The inhabitants as a result of all this submit their wills to Raven, and do not question anything she says. Existence literally being a flattened wheel makes no logical sense. It refers to existence and time being flat from Raven's Perspective

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Zenkai, you literally just proved Ultima's point.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

That's not what existence truly is though. Existence is the universe and everything in it

Why can't it be both? There are several verses and real life Philosophies / Religions which depict Existence as a Wheel, like the Elder Scrolls, Thelema, Hinduism and Buddhism. It doesn't even have to be a literal Wheel, just a metaphor.

And like Matt said, you just proved my point. The scans aren't saying that Raven is so transcendent over existence she perceives it as a 2-D plane, they are saying that by looking beyond the restraints of Time, you cease to perceive distinction between any two things and ideas, and sees the true nature of existence.

This is literally Buddhism101.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

It literally says that, not only does she view it, she is beyond it as well. I was simply going over his point

look beyond it, and you will see that existence is a (flattened) wheel. Step of the wheel, and see the great paradox, Life and Death, Order and Chaos, Light and Shadow: Outside our limited perceptions they are one"

It's saying she is beyond the illusion of time and existence itself, not just that she views it. Beyond mortals, time and existence

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Okay? She exists beyond Time and sees the true nature of existence, which is metaphorically depicted as a Wheel, you are trying to pull out the highest possible interpretation from this statement while completely ignoring the blatant reference to Vedic Religion that is being made here.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

So far I agree with Ultima. I'm not seeing the evidence for 5D as even 4D beings can exist beyond time.

 

[Elizhaa]

So far I agree with Ultima. I'm not seeing the evidence for 5D as even 4D beings can exist beyond time.

One just needs Acausality Type 4 to exist beyond time, honestly which the god tiers have anyway.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

^That too.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Shadow 4-D being can exist beyond time but they cannot percieve Time as being flat.

That's what the OP suggests is happening but there seems to be doubt.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Maybe not the best example but I perceive paper (a 3D object) as flat and that wouldn't make me 4D.

I would think you'd need more in order to say they transcend 4D.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Okay? She exists beyond Time and sees the true nature of existence, which is metaphorically depicted as a Wheel, you are trying to pull out the highest possible interpretation from this statement while completely ignoring the blatant reference to Vedic Religion that is being made here.

"See's the true nature of existence"

No. She exists beyond it. As Andy said, she is percieving time as flat, and existence as a wheel. Not only that, but she is Beyond the wheel

"Step of the wheel (of existence), and see the great paradox: Life and Death, Order and chaos, Light and Shadow"~ (Raven is Light and Order)

I'm not trying to do anything. I'm intepreating the texts.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I never said she didn't, I just said that interpreting this line as saying she views all of existence as a 2-D Circle is incredibly exaggerated. It is far more likely to be what I previously said: Raven exists beyond the illusion that is Time, and thus perceives the true nature of existence, which is itself metaphorically depicted as a Wheel.

 

[Andytrenom]

Just so you know I lack knowledge on both this verse and the religious ideas it may be inspired by.

I may interpret this as 5 to 6-D going by the statemenrts but it I admit it could be wrong due to context.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

How is it exaggerated? The statements clearly state she is beyond the illusion of time, beyond the great wheel of existence as well, not just sees it in a certain way. It being something you think is more likely doesn't that make it. Usually in the game when there are refrences, they make it explictly clear. Not based on assumption. She's viewing time and existence as flat, i'm pretty sure that is higher-dimensional

At the very least it's enough for "Possibly High 2-A" since it's based down to intepretation, but it could still mean as such in the OP

But I suppose you can close this if you want. The WoG said he will expand on this in the next arc

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The scans themselves support my interpretation though. I repeat it again, they are not saying Raven views the Universe as a 2-D object, they visibly aren't, what they are saying is that due to existing beyond the illusion of Time and having a far greater perception that Mortals, she views existence as it truly is, something which is depicted as a Wheel for metaphors' sake.

Her perceiving the true nature of existence doesn't even invalidate her existing beyond it, either. From what the scans are saying, the former is actually a result of the latter.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

I suppose we can close this thread then if "possibly high 2-A" is out of the question, even though I still disagree. WoG said the great wheel of existence is going to be a focus point of the next arc anyway, so we'll get more information then. I won't be able to respond for a few days from now on regardless.