High School DxD: Sirzechs's EE

[Kaltias]

Pretty sure there is a Digimon that has abstract existence for embodying gluttony.

Beelzemo. He embodies the concept of gluttony.

Although it's worth pointing out, harming abstracts doesn't require non-physical interaction unless they are non-corporeal

 

[DragonEmperor23]

So we just need to see Great Red regenerate from the concept of dreams and Ophis from the concept of infinity?

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Anyhow, I'm going to be significantly less active in next two weeks, so I asked ALRF, TISSG7Redgrave and Kaltias to carry out this discussion.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@DragonEmperor You need a lot more than that if you want to prove that he's truly an abstract and that everyone hurting him can now kill abstracts. Being stated to embody something isn't enough for even Type 8 on its own, look at the Creation Trio.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

• scratches head

Well, what do you want me to do then? You asked for explanations concerning the statements for them, which were given to you above.

As for the DMC thing, I played only DMC3 so I have no idea of that. But you gotta look at the context and stuff. There are people that are called the embodiment of strength, but it doesn't mean you should take it at face value.

If there's other stuff for it, then good luck. Digimon has an abstract for embodying gluttony and I also remember seeing an abstract based on embodying evil---- no reason DxD and DMC can't get it if there are similar statements.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Pretty sure that Digimon has far more going for it than just a statement. Assuming that these characters are full abstracts and not just people with Type 8 or something is probably the highest interpretation available, and it's honestly not really warranted.

 

[ALRF]

I think the problem with the Digimon is that he's explicitly stated to represent the concept of gluttony

And most likely, sharing the same nature as the other Digimons

Ah yes, it's Beelzemon. He's stuff is more evident due to having stuff like non-corpreal due to him being a resident of the Dark Area amongst other things

 

[Elizhaa]

So we just need to see Great Red regenerate from the concept of dreams and Ophis from the concept of infinity?

If they can then, they would have Type 8 Immortality.

 

[Kaltias]

Non-physical interaction is only really needed to punch "exist purely as a non-corporeal concept" kind of abstracts.

It wouldn't even be needed for Beelzemon if he wasn't nonexistent.

Also yeah, he has a lot going for him. Not only statements, showings of type 8 immortality too, as well as embodying the concept

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I don't remember anything like Type 8 being stated for them. I lost all my screenshots for DxD recently, but most of what I remember for Ophis is what I've posted already. You guys should determine if it's abstract or whatever---- I'm not sure if I've even looked at our page for Abstract Existence before. As for what I remember, I'm just going to repeat it so everyone can see it.

• Ophis was born out of the nothingness of infinity

• It's said to embody and represent infinity, chaos and nothingness

• It's been referred to as "infinite" and "the infinite" many times

• The author apparently said on Twitter that Ophis being born out of nothingness on December 31 and January 1 is meant to represent its status as an infinite being

• Cao Cao said he can't affect it because it's impossible for him to take down the power of the infinite and whatever attack was used on it is useless because Ophis itself is infinite

• Power Nullification and Lifespan Reduction doesn't work because it's literally infinite

I think that's all I remember. The other statements that come to mind are just repeated cases of Ophis being infinite, having infinite power, and representing infinity while Great Red is referred to as a dream. I believe this is why Ishibumi gave Vali the ability to compress dreams---- he's planning to defeat Great Red. Although Divine Dividing can already halve things like hatred, anger, and grudges iirc.

As for Great Red, he has much lesser info. Only that he was born out of dreams, represents the dreams in the past, present and future and can descend into them, and show people dreams.

I have no idea of what kind of beings they are, but I don't think they're normal.

 

[Elizhaa]

Just find that that Type 8 immortality also is needed to qualify for Abstract Existence. Also, upon further analysis, it seems that Ophis and Great Red have it

Firephoenixearl's stated that Cao Cao did put a hole in Ophis's body, she just regened it doe since she's infinite that looks like Type 8 Immortality at least; also Type 3. Also, like you stated Burning Full Fingers, Ophis cannot be truly affected since she is infinite.

I believe this is why Ishibumi gave Vali the ability to compress dreams---- he's planning to defeat Great Red. Although Divine Dividing can already halve things like hatred, anger, and grudges iirc.

Based on this statement, it is likely that Great Red have Type 8 Immortality since the ability to affect dream is needed help to kill him; likewise, he more than likely have some of regen like Ophis.


Abstract Existence Definition: This term means that a certain character is an immaterial embodiment of a fundamental abstract concept, and is able to regenerate as long as the concept itself continues to exist.

• It should be noted that simply being representative of a concept does not qualify a character for this ability, as it only applies to the ones that fulfill the above requirements.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Uhh, I don't know about that immortality stuff. I think it's safer for us to remove it...

 

[DragonEmperor23]

If Vali needs the ability to effect dreams to fight the Great Red wouldn't this make him at least non physical or something?

 

[Elizhaa]

Maybe, we should wait for the others' opinions, Burning Full Fingers.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

@Dragon

I don't think the case is that he needs the ability to do so; I believe it's just that since Great Red is referred to as "the dream" and Vali's goal is to defeat Great Red, Ishibumi gave him the ability to compress dreams. It's definitely not a random thing, in my opinion.

Great Red is also called "the dream" in the chants for Juggernaut Drive and Empireo Juggernaut Overdrive. Ophis confirms it in Volume 11 when she says something like this to Ddraig:

Two heavenly dragons, I as "the infinite" and Great Red as "the dream" mixed into the chant. Ddraig, why did you think to become the king of domination?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

They've been referred multiple times as being that thing.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Yeah, especially Ophis. It's been called infinite since its first appearance and one of the bullet points for the prequel to DxD says "towards infinity". That's assuredly referring to Ophis, probably in its old man form.

I don't know what they classify as, but they're definitely not normal beings.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

this EE seems to be a good low-godly regen neg as it destroy souls though mind i'm not sure but if at least body and soul can neg low-godly so yeah

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

So, should we remove it? I'm not sure they have Type 8 based on what we know. I've pretty much posted the core info about them. The remaining statements are essentially the same as what I posted above, so there's no need to look for them.

 

[Elizhaa]

Burning Full Fingers, as unbiased as possible, it might need to remove to be removed since there are too many ifs for Type 8 Immortality.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah but Cao Cao and Ophis case is a thing.

Cao Cao used the single strongest weapon in the whole series, he hit her with it and it produced a light so strong that even though they put a barier around the light, Ise stated that it could heavily dmg even higher class devils. Ophis on the other hand actually took the hit not the light. After it all ended, ophis didn't even budge.


……I understood that the light created from the holy-spear was intense even from inside the mist! If we didn't have this mist, I wonder how much damage would we, devils, have received just from the torrents? The light of the holy-spear stops, the mist of darkness also disappears, and I looked at Cao Cao and Ophis. Ophis still had a spear pierced through her stomach. But there was no blood flowing out from her stomach and she also didn't have any expression of pain on her face! Cao Cao takes out his spear slowly, Ophis's stomach had a hole but there were no traces of blood. The hole disappears as if nothing happened.

…..So she didn't take any damage? Even with the light of that holy-spear…..? Cao Cao then says it with an astonished face.

"An instant kill attack if it was a devil. I even put a lot of power in it so even other beings would vaporise…… It would have taken half of the power of one of the Gods who are weak against this spear."

Cao Cao then looks at me.

"Did you see that Sekiryuutei? This is Ophis. You cannot give it a critical wound even with the Ultimate Longinus. The damage went through. ---- But it is impossible even for this spear, to take down the power of the infinite."

Since Ophis herself is infinite, does it mean that no matter what kind of attack you do with that spear is useless…..?! So this is a dragon that represents Infinity. Cao Cao continues while tapping his spear on his shoulder.

"She won't even fight back against me who just attacked her. The reason is simple. ---That's because she can kill me any time she wants to. That's why she won't do it, even if I do something like this. Basically she's not interested in anything besides Great-Red. Out of the Top 5 world's strongest not including Great-Red, the strongest one is Ophis, and there is a huge gap between her and the second strongest where you could say that she is on a totally different level. This is what the embodiment of Infinity means."

These guys….. Cao Cao is after Ophis right? Then I thought about it. ……Then what are they planning to do with this "Infinite"? Even if it is Cao Cao, it would be impossible to defeat her right? Or can he beat her if he uses Balance-Breaker or the thing called Truth-Idea…….? No, judging from how Cao Cao spoke, he's basically saying that he can't beat her.


So yeah there's that. I don't think there is any question about Ophis at this point. She IS abstract.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

They said Type 8 is needed, but I don't remember such a thing for them.

Or does that quote suggest anything about Type 8?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

They said Type 8 is needed, but I don't remember such a thing for them.
Or does that quote suggest anything about Type 8?

Well she is immune as long as she is based on the idea of Infinity basically. No dmg even gets through to her. It would also explain why Ophis cannot beat Great Red despite such things.

And yes type 8 is there basically. As long as she is "infinity", anything just dissapears via being "finite" vs "infinity". No finite dmg can dmg the abstract idea of "infinity". Not even God's strongest artifact (the being who sealed Trihexia). Which does also explain why Ophis and Great Red can exist in the dimensional gaps in their true forms while being completely unfazed.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

...Right. Well I'm going to leave it to you and others that know more about it.

 

[Elizhaa]

If @Firephoenixearl's statement for Type 8 Immortality is accepted then Ophis and Great Red are Abstract Existences.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

It literally calls her the embodiment of infinity, they're both abstract existences with type 8.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I don't think there is much to argue. Coming from everything, the fact that Ophis was basically hit with an artifact of god of the bible, she lacked any signs of being dmg-ed in any way, she lacked stuff like blood flowing out, so her inside is completely empty, anything that is finite cannot even dmg her, any dmg just disappears etc.

There are far too many things pointing out to the same thing, "that ophis is actually the idea of infinity" which makes her an abstract existence as she is literally untouchable (let alone killing her) as long as she is still Infinity.

 

[Elizhaa]

Then, I guess that Type 8 Immortality overall is agreed.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

This can be closed then?

 

[ALRF]

Nothing in that quote hints at her being type 8 immortality

Also did any staff agreed on this? You'd need at least one to get this done

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Nothing in that quote hints at her being type 8 immortality
Also did any staff agreed on this? You'd need at least one to get this done

Well about the type 8. She never died. Her body was empty. Her wounds "dissapear" (not regen). She is immune to being nulled, being divided, being hurt, being reduced etc etc. She was born from the nothingness and infinity. She is the embodiment of infinity and has it's traits as well as it's powers.

And devils can interact with dreams, even compressing a dream out of existence. As well as interact with Great Red who transmits the dreams of everyone.

It's also the reason why Great Red and Ophis can't get erased even though they casually stand in the dimensional gap.

 

[ALRF]

Being born from nothingness and infinity is still not enough for non-corporeality

Stated to embody infinity is not enough for non-corporeality

Give me a quote

That's just resistance to erasure then

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Give me a quote

Quote for what? The dream compressing? Even Burning said so and i think it's already in the profiles, spare me the effort on this one, since Burning brought it up.

 

[ALRF]

Just checked out

You're lying out of your teeth now. It's Vali who can compress dreams, not even devils

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Just checked out
You're lying out of your teeth now. It's Vali who can compress dreams, not even devils

Vali is a devil though. The traits of a devil should apply to every single devil if high enough of a tier (and sirzechs is way above vali). Such as Ise being able to interact with Great Red and even fuse with him (fuse with someone like great red who holds the dreams of past present and future).

 

[ALRF]

He's capable of compressing dreams due to his Sacred Gear not because of his traits

 

[Firephoenixearl]

He's capable of compressing dreams due to his Sacred Gear not because of his traits

Sacred Gears are literally "sealed pieces of the souls of other beings".

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Ain't that lovely how basically 2 people, who are far from being the most competent ones, revise the verse while a staff doesn't even care?

No offense meant to anyone here, but that's what I see.

Also, Abstract Existence is still a no from me.

 

[ALRF]

And it very much doesn't mean other devils can affect dreams

I am not gonna continue this forever circle debating with you, either present other arguments or i'll just ignore you.

So yeah, you guys need a staff to agree with non-corporeality and abstract existence and type 8 immortality to get it in their profiles

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

>revise the verse

Don't blow things out of proportion. It's just two people and the guy didn't really know about the ability. It can be easily removed, so no need to continue this.