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High School DxD: Sirzechs's EE

It's useless. Nothing you said brings new proof. Additionally...your list would be headcanon since Ishibumi said "in no particular order". I mean, it's not like anyone can't have their opinion, but why are you classifying Lugh above Aten and stuff like that?

While Ishibumi said Sirzechs, Ajuka, and the Heavenly Dragons are in the top ten, he straight up said the Hindu gods would place in the upper ranks of the list. Nothing like that for Sirzechs, Ajuka, Ddraig and Albion. It's backed up by Shiva not being interested in a finite Ophis. Finite Ophis is in the top ten--- she's stronger than Prime Ddraig and Albion combined.

>Rizevim was "not" a super devil in terms of strength. He was just an irregular devil (his ability was irregular), that's why he was a super devil.

Yes, he was. He possesses strength that transcends the current Maou and the original Maou. He's also stronger than Diehauser that's regarded to be an absolute monster even by Maou-class characters. Also, Michael's attack did nothing to him despite his weakness to light. EJOD Vali that can be said to be a Super Devil doesn't get that title because of Divine Dividing, which is also irregular.

>Oh did i mention that neither Aphophis nor Azi Dahaka and/or Crom Cruach were in that same list?

No, but you forgot to mention that they trained themselves to Heavenly Dragon-class. They were not always at that level. Crom surpasses Prime Ddraig; the person that easily beat a top ten class opponent. Are you trying to deny now that Heavenly Dragons are not in the top ten?

Ddraig >= Pseudo DxD Ise (Volume 25). Crom > Ddraig. Vali can injure and take attacks from Crom i.e DxD L Vali, DxD Ise, Crom, Apophis, and Azi Dahaka are top ten class. Quite simple.

>imma say they are somewhere in-between 5-1, since Ajuka without any help from anyone (since everyone basically left) could actually threaten Shiva in a nice way.

Headcanon, again. Why did you even put "1"?

>Inb4 someone says "well just cus he said that doesn't mean he's stronger" he is at least comparable in power, so he is so strong that Shiva wouldn't want to fight him as he himself would suffer heavy losses.

Well, I'm going to say it again. Unless you can bring proof that:

  • Volume 4 Ise is equal to BxB Vali. The same guy that he admitted inferiority to several times in the earlier volumes. Threatening Vali and squaring him to him means nothing.
  • Tannin is comparable to Great Red. He challenged him to a fight without any fear, didn't he?
  • Tannin is comparable to infinite Ophis. He said he's going to "keep watch over Ophis" as though he can do anything to her or hinder her a bit with his best efforts.
  • Sirzechs is equal to infinite Ophis. He didn't show any fear in its presence. Same with Tannin.
So, you see? Ajuka threatening Shiva means nothing. Shiva is not afraid of him. Nothing suggests they're equal. Both Ajuka and Azazel told Shiva to stop Trihexa. Quite contradictory if the Sirzechs both of them know could do it, right? Oh, and how exactly did Sirzechs end up stopping Trihexa? All are inferior to the beast aside from Ophis and Great Red.

Your "Sirzechs is the guy that can stop Trihexa" argument is void. Did you not see what Sirzechs actually did with his peerage to stop Trihexa? And that Sirzechs + many others are planning to battle Trihexa over the course of several thousands of years? You must realize that if Sirzechs could stop Trihexa the way you're implying, none of that would have been necessary? And Ajuka that's equal to Sirzechs can't do anything to Trihexa, so your argument for Sirzechs could also be referring to his hax?

God also technically "stopped" Trihexa. Is God equal to Ophis now without any further proof?

>so he is so strong that Shiva wouldn't want to fight him as he himself would suffer heavy losses.

You know that "heavy losses" is referring to Shiva's army...right? His army is not top ten class, after all. Shiva would also suffer heavy losses in a war against Indra, and he prepared an army for the guy. Indra is not really hyped to be at Shiva's level.

I won't bother with this anymore. You're taking things out of context and extrapolating them. I'm unfollowing this thread. It's concluded.

Vergil has read Volume 25. He gave us some info concerning it. Also, there's info in other websites like animesuki.
 
@Burning...LITEARALLY everything that both you and i are using here is purely headcanon, there is no true way to decide where each character stands. I can't give you proof neither can you correct my list.

"I say Sirzechs is on par with Shiva in strength". Ofc i cannot provide any actual proof but you can't provide any actual proof that he is weaker either, get my point? This is just my opinion, i can't give you enough facts to believe me and neither can you give me enough facts to prove me wrong on my opinion.

About Rizevim not being a super devil in terms of strength, that is actually true. It was clearly stated that in terms of actual raw power he was nowhere close to Sirzechs or Ajuka. While he may be much stronger than the previous lucifer that doesn't necesarily mean he is Sirzechs' level of power. Need i remind you that the "super devils" were basically "mistakes" or "irregularities" that weren't supposed to happen and therefore they were much stronger than ordinary devils. Ajuka is practically untouchable, whatever you launch at him he will just redirect it back at you, cus he can do that. Sirzechs is ofc, literal energy that erases you even if he's holding back. While Rizevim he's completely untouchable by anything that is a sacred gear (unless it's ophis ofc since she is "infinite"). All 3 of them are irregularities in the system, one shouldn't be able to do stuff like that. So it's basically someone who can control anything he wants, someone who can erase anything he wants and someone who can null anything he wants. Those are the reasons why they are "super devils" they have irregular or abnormal capabilities, though that doesn't mean they are all = in strength. Rizevim could be 2, 3 times stronger than the previous lucifer and that would still be quite strong enough to count someone as a "super devil" while counting in the fact that he has the irregular ability, though Sirzechs is over 10 times stronger in demonic power alone without even counting his abilities (so without counting PoD etc etc, just in demonic aura he is over 10 times stronger).

About your cases:

  • Ise wasn't equal to vali, he was far from it. Though don't compare a chunni kid to Ajuka. Ise would just go against anyone, though Azazel protstrated before Shiva cus he knew just how far out of his reach Shiva was. Again these guys aren't kids obsessed with boobies, these guys are top tiers, they know what they are doing.
  • Yes he challenged him. Dragons lack fear doe. They are known as fearless creatures which is why Crom actually wanted to challenge Ophis despite Ophis being like leagues above him and why ophis wasn't scared of Samael's curse despite it being the thing that will kill any dragon (maybe even Great Red).
  • Yes keep watch. Spies go spy after a gang of mafia, that doesn't mean they can literally single handedly stop them. He's just watching over her, there are also other ways to stop ophis from doing something bad, if an evil dragon could exploit it i don't see why Tannin wouldn't be able to. And again dragons are fearless.
  • He didn't show fear because he knew she wouldn't start anything. Besides Sirzechs has lived longer than what we can possibly imagine, he already knows Ophis' goal is Great Red. The possibility that Ophis wanted their lifes was literally non existant, if she did want that she would have solo'd all of the factions. Then again showing no fear doens't = Sirzechs threatening to obliterate Ophis. Threatening someone is like picking a fight with them.
About why did they ask shiva for help, they said so themselves. We need more insurance. Even if sirzechs could handle it, literally doubling the insurance by getting someone like Shiva is not a bad idea.
 
I'm going to try and keep this "short"--- I used no headcanon. Ishibumi said Hindu gods place in the upper ranks of the top ten, while Sirzechs and Ajuka are only "somewhere in the list". If they were indeed equal to Shiva, Ishibumi would have said something as important as that. You'd think that if Sirzechs and Ajuka were No. 2 in the world, something like this would have been said various times, seeing as they've been introduced in the series for a long time now.

You are the one using headcanon; taking things out of context and claiming Ajuka is equal to Shiva. Seriously? I can't believe my eyes. Is it so hard to wait for solid proof?

I don't need to provide any proof that Shiva is superior to Sirzechs--- Ishibumi already said Hindu gods are in the upper ranks, nothing like that for Ajuka and Sirzechs. Coupled with Shiva being uninterested in finite Ophis, and Azazel believing he's the one that could have a chance against Trihexa, the person that's portrayed as superior is clear. Sensei said it clearly--- "The only one who can stop it now is you". The same sensei that saw True Form Sirzechs and said he'd be able to easily beat Hades.

>'neither can you correct my list

Yes, I can't correct your list because I choose not to use headcanon to determine the strongest characters. Why would you place Lugh above Aten just like that? Lugh only beat Balor who isn't in the top ten. Placing emphasis on the "my", you've basically admitted that what you've been saying is based on your personal opinion. In other words, placing Sirzechs as an equal to Shiva is nothing but your personal opinion, and is not backed up by canon facts. Okay, thanks. That's what I've been looking for. I thought you were saying Sirzechs being equal to Shiva is something like a fact.

Dragons are prideful creatures--- this has been said from the onset. And yet, Ddraig admitted Crom has surpassed him. The same Ddraig that later called Crom a "mere Evil Dragon", showcasing his pride as a Heavenly Dragon. But...he never said Sirzechs surpasses him and Albion. Seems pretty big to me.

Yes, Rizevim is not equal to Ajuka and Sirzechs. He's just a lower class Super Devil--- like what is said for EJOD Vali.

>and therefore they were much stronger than regular devils

Thank you for finally going with canon facts. Rizevim totally eclipses normal devils, as simple as that. He doesn't need to rival Ajuka for us to know that he's a super devil. Super Devils = Transcendental Devils. Thank you for also finally acknowledging Rizevim's strength. You don't have to be at Ajuka's level to be regarded as a Super Devil, as per canon.

That stuff about "irregular" abilities is not the only factor, or both Gasper and Diehauser would already be Super Devils owing to Aeon Balor and Worthless respectively. Even [Hole] would be difficult for people to take on normally.

Might I remind you that Gasper only becomes Super Devil-class as an adult despite his hax? Irregular abilities is not all it takes. You mean to tell me now that if Gasper and Millicas are not stated to be over ten times stronger than the former Lucifer, they can't be Super Devils? What? Well, sorry to say but that's exactly what happened in the future. They aren't said to be ten times stronger than the former Lucifer, but they're Super Devil-class all the same.

  • I'm comparing their situations. Ajuka threatened Shiva on a issue concerning things he holds dear to himself. Shiva being superior to him, doesn't mean he's going to meekly look on as Shiva wrecks things dear to him. He's supposed to show no fear or sign of weakness in that situation. Random gods and their servants going head on to fight Trihexa doesn't put them on the same level--- that's simply the only thing they should do. You don't look on as someone destroys things precious to you. You just simply do what you can.
  • I seem to remember that Nidhoggr was shaking in fear as he was about to be beaten by Crom, but okay. I agree with that for the most part.
  • Nidhoggr exploited that situation because Ophis didn't want anything bad to happen to the egg, and that's a finite Ophis for that matter. What exactly would have Tannin exploited there? He'd get stomped, and he knows it. It's just a matter of his pride as a dragon. Actually, it could also be Tannin knowing that Ophis would simply ignore him--- as was the case with Cao Cao.
  • But that's the same Sirzechs that showed a grim expression along with the leaders of the three major factions when he heard that Ophis had made a move...but okay. Let's leave that.
Also, you didn't bother replying to my other arguments, so I take it you concede to them which is good. I already addressed that strange "Sirzechs could stop Trihexa" argument. It'd be different if there's actual proof, because no one can go against canon statements. If Ishibumi releases Shin DxD 2 today, and says Sirzechs is equal to Shiva, no one can question it. Pages will simply be updated to reflect the canon fact.

You simply cannot argue for Sirzechs being equal to Shiva without headcanon or taking things out of context and extrapolating them. Again, Shiva prepared an army for Indra despite being hyped and portrayed to be the superior one. I can take your logic now and say Indra is equal to him, or that God is equal to Trihexa since he technically stopped it.

Just wanted to say that almost none of your claims are backed up by canonical evidence. What you gotta go with for now is Hindu gods being the strongest after Ophis, Trihexa, and Great Red which was said by the author of the series himself. Anything else is headcanon without solid proof which does not exist currently.

As for me, I used no headcanon. I argued with what we know for sure from the series; which is, Rizevim and likely EJOD Vali being Super Devil-class, Hindu gods placing at the upper ranks of a list that Sirzechs and Ajuka are including in, Azazel saying Shiva is the only one that could possibly stop Trihexa, and Shiva disregarding finite Ophis, which possibly places him as the strongest below the big three. If I was to extrapolate like you, I'd say Indra is equal to Shiva because he's not afraid of him and intends to wage a war with him, with Shiva also preparing an army to fight with him. Not like there's anything wrong with you expressing your opinion--- I just hate when headcanon is used to argue extensively as though it's a fact, especially without no substantial proof like this.

That's going to be all from me here--- I'm serious this time.
 
I can actually argue back against that one. Though as i said many times:

1. Sirzechs being stronger or = to Shiva is purely my opinion. I CAN back up my opinion, meaning saying what leads me to believe that, though that still is my opinion. Sirzechs could be just above hades, in the lower end of the deal, or he can literally be able to solo the whole "top 10" on his own, it's literally an unknown. Though "i think/believe" that he is somewhat comparable to Shiva. Also Ichiei said in the upper ranks not "they hold all the upper ranks" also remember that Sirzechs and Ajuka weren't even in the list, so the number of "top 10" actually decreases, i mean someone like fenrir or typhoon may even be out of the list due to these 2.

2. This thread is not for this kind of discussion. And since this thread served it's purpose...hakkai this thread.
 
RebubleUselet said:
Is there anything else backing it up? Like feats or other explanations?
Click to expand...
Ophis being literal infinity. No dmg is meaningful. He used the strongest weapon in the verse, and she barely noticed it. Cus she is infinite, finite dmg is meaningless.

Great Red is literally a dream doe. Ise touched great red he literally saw the dreams of everyone.
 
1. The same can happen if you're simply far above the weapon in durability. No signs of AE.

2. Good. This still doesn't mean he's abstract himself.
 
Also, from Abstract Existence page:

It should be noted that simply being representative of a concept does not qualify a character for this ability, as it only applies to the ones that fulfill the above requirements.
 
Also, power nullification doesn't work since it's literally infinite. For infinite Ophis, its lifespan can't be reduced by Grim Reapers because it's...well, infinite.

Tbh, I can't count how many times Ophis is referred to as "infinite", "the infinite itself", and having infinite power. Apparently, the author also said Ophis being born out of the nothingness of infinity on December 31 and January 1 represents it as an infinite being or something.

The chants for the powerups of the Boosted Gear and Divine Dividing also refer to Ophis as "the infinite" and Great Red as "the dream". Makes sense because Compression Divider apparently allows Vali to compress dreams.

As for Great Red---- it's the same as Ophis only that it represents dreams in the past, present, and future.
 
>Infinite Power

This sounds more like High 3-A AP.

Also, Great Red stuff invalidates the definition of Abstract Existence, as Issei could touch him, and dreams are not a fundamental concept.
 
"as Issei could touch him"

If characters can interact with him, that just means they can interact with stuff like that. Ise also damaged Trihexa's consciousness, although it was outside its body. If people have the ability to hit nonexistent beings, what's the matter? That's what's Non-Physical Interaction is.
 
RebubleUselet said:
>Infinite Power
This sounds more like High 3-A AP.

Also, Great Red stuff invalidates the definition of Abstract Existence, as Issei could touch him, and dreams are not a fundamental concept.
Click to expand...
Ise could touch him...yes. Literally everyone in DxD can affect the non corporeal beings. It's not a trait specific to Sirzechs.
 
RebubleUselet said:
There are different types of N-PI. Trihexa is not an abstract, at least that's not what his page says.
Click to expand...
The point was, Ise can also interact with the abstract. Like he is infinity and dream himself (he has the body of great red a dream and the power of ophis, infinity).
 
Firephoenixearl said:
The point was, Ise can also interact with the abstract. Like he is infinity and dream himself (he has the body of great red a dream and the power of ophis, infinity).
Click to expand...
Not a really good point, since that's something that is being questioned right now.
 
RebubleUselet said:
Not a really good point, since that's something that is being questioned right now.
Click to expand...
Not exactly. Affecting abstract beings is not a trait specific to sirzechs.

Ophis is literal infinity

DxD is the literal dream.
 
DragonEmperor23 said:
I don't see a list of fundamental concepts? Where are you getting dreams not being one from?
Click to expand...
Fundamental - a central or primary rule or principle on which something is based.

What is based on dreams?
 
>Trihexa is not an abstract

Of course, I never claimed it was. I said Ise could hit its literal consciousness that it ejected from its body--- I was referring to characters being able to hit what shouldn't be possible to hit normally.
 
Burning Full Fingers said:
>Trihexa is not an abstract
Of course, I never claimed it was. I said Ise could hit its literal consciousness that it ejected from its body--- I was referring to characters being able to hit what shouldn't be possible to hit normally.
Click to expand...
Okay? How does this prove that Ophis and Great Red are abstracts?
 
RebubleUselet said:
Burning Full Fingers said:
>Trihexa is not an abstract
Of course, I never claimed it was. I said Ise could hit its literal consciousness that it ejected from its body--- I was referring to characters being able to hit what shouldn't be possible to hit normally.
Click to expand...
Okay? How does this prove that Ophis and Great Red are abstracts?
Click to expand...
It doesn't. You used that to say "they aren't abstracts" though. We already gave you the proof. Of Great Red literally being a dream, everryone's dream, and ophis being literally untouchable via infinite in every way.
 
You didn't say Ophis is untouachble, you said this:

"He used the strongest weapon in the verse, and she barely noticed it."

This doesn't entail being untouchable.

And I already said Great Red's existence invalidates this wiki's definition of Abstract Existence.
 
...I never said this. Look at the thread:

I said: I remember that Ophis is said to embody and represent infinity, chaos and nothingness. It was born from the nothingness of infinity and has been referred to various times as "the infinite". Then I provided a few examples and said Great Red is the same; only that it represents dreams in the past, present, and future.

I never said "Ophis and Great Red are abstract entities". Nedge said based on what I posted, they qualified. Though, I remember a Digimon having abstract existence for embodying gluttony or something like that.
 
>And I already said Great Red's existence invalidates this wiki's definition of Abstract Existence

But this is what our page for Non-Physical Interaction says:

The power to interact with intangible or non-corporeal beings. Users can both see and interact with intangible, or non-corporeal, abstract, and nonexistent life-forms and entities, allowing them to make physical contact and possibly cause harm.
 
Great Red is not an abstract life form.

Also, there are fodder demons in Devil May Cry that embody Seven Deadly Sins, yet you don't see Dante being able to harm abstracts.
 
RebubleUselet said:
Also, there are fodder demons in Devil May Cry that embody Seven Deadly Sins, yet you don't see Dante being able to harm abstracts.
Click to expand...
Statements alone don't cut it. And pretty sure there's more for it than that. (referring to your Digimon argument)

Either way, bringing up other verses is irrelevant.
 
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