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Frisk Low 2-C Upgrade

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Justkillme42069

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original thread this was talked about in
if you want more details for both arguments for this you should go read through that thread, I'm just gonna summarize the argument for why high determination frisk should be upgraded also plug for a newer thread for other changes to both frisk and chara

so basically asriel's hyper goner attack is most likely what caused the timeline to begin its slow destruction, and frisk survived that

even if the hyper goner wasn't what caused the timeline to slowly be destroyed, and instead it was asriel's mere existence in his GoH form, then frisk surviving even regular attacks from asriel should give them low 2-C durability since asriel actually attacking while in his GoH form would logically have more destructive force than him doing absolutely nothing

we also have asriel's final attack which was argued to not be at full power because it was around 30 seconds before his redemption, but take another look here (21:30)
  • no more bullet patterns, just a straight up unavoidable laser, asriel is done screwing around
  • unlike the majority of his other attacks (aside from the gun thing) which are either white or some kinda faded rainbowy, this laser is bright ranbowy, which probably means higher concentration of power
  • the attack is making the whole ass UI shake and even asriel himself is shaking and screaming as he puts out the attack
  • asriel's emotional instability in this moment should honestly make the attack even more powerful than it would be if he was calm, even moreso his utter desperation to get rid of frisk
if that's not a full power attack then idk what you guys think is one, but even if it's not his full power, this attack absolutely took effort to put out at least, and unlike the rest of the fight he was actually trying hard to get rid of you

asriel's hyper goner attack, which is very likely what caused the timeline to slowly be destroyed, seemingly took a very small amount of effort to put out
if that wasn't what caused it, then asriel slowly destroying the timeline took no effort, he does it passively in his GoH form
frisk took like an absolute champ, an attack from asriel that took actual effort to put out

so my proposal here is
frisk durability with immense determination: low 2-C (survived a serious attack from asriel/survived asriel's hyper goner, which caused the timeline to slowly be destroyed/whatever else)
frisk AP/SS with immense determination: 'unknown, likely low 2-C' or just 'unknown' (was unable to harm asriel at any point in their battle, but should be far stronger than normal)
 
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Aside from minor things like some wording and that kind of stuff, yeah the CRT looks fine, I'll just follow and wait.
 
double bump, any random people reading this if you have objections can you say so and if you don't can you also say so pls
 
This is wank for reasons already given and sheer common sense.
 
No one ever conceded against your argument so saying it's wank based on your own claims and stating it as fact doesn't mean anything. And that was all in my thread, not this one. The only reason I haven't been talking is both due to mild disinterest and because the argument has slowed down as you don't seem to really care about the actual debate as much as just claiming you're right, meanwhile none of the people you pinged seem to care at all.
 
Atrocious logic there, the first thread was a huge mess that went over a bunch of things and talked about them super casually, I having enough patience to comment there doesn't mean other notable users would, the second thread was ignored when everything that we needed to talk about was put on the table, users were called and things just needed to be pushed into being completed, and since that didn't happened the thread was allowed to die just like that, now I have go back at seeing my same arguments and what people to call to see over stuff out of a sheer lack of concentration for the people claiming this stuff. Delusional to think in this circumstances that I don't seem to really care about the actual debate as much as just claiming I'm right, if anything I should be claiming the same due to the tactics used here, you should not measure arguments on threads based n how many conceded in them, you can judge your own accuracy and others can think by themselves, and no sh*t I would believe what I claim, in what world someone doing so "doesn't mean anything".
 
Eficiente said:
Atrocious logic there, the first thread was a huge mess that went over a bunch of things and talked about them super casually, I having enough patience to comment there doesn't mean other notable users would, the second thread was ignored when everything that we needed to talk about was put on the table, users were called and things just needed to be pushed into being completed, and since that didn't happened the thread was allowed to die just like that, now I have go back at seeing my same arguments and what people to call to see over stuff out of a sheer lack of concentration for the people claiming this stuff. Delusional to think in this circumstances that I don't seem to really care about the actual debate as much as just claiming I'm right, if anything I should be claiming the same due to the tactics used here, you should not measure arguments on threads based n how many conceded in them, you can judge your own accuracy and others can think by themselves, and no sh*t I would believe what I claim, in what world someone doing so "doesn't mean anything".
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Well, I haven't seen your arguments yet, could You present them again?
 
"Delusional to think in this circumstances that I don't seem to really care about the actual debate as just claiming I'm right" You've stopped talking for days at a time whenever someone tries to argue with your points, and in my thread stopped talking at all during the argument because I wasn't conceding at, like, the 4th message. Which massively slows down the discussion for all threads involved. That really doesn't come off as taking the debate seriously. Of course you'd believe what you claim, I'm saying that stating them as a fact, let alone "sheer common sense", doesn't mean anything and isn't an actual argument.

I have trouble responding to the rest of your message as I either can't even understand what you're saying, or in some cases what's said is simply irrelevant.
 
EnderLord8 said:
Well, I haven't seen your arguments yet, could You present them again?
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Basically it's about a huge downgrade for Asriel and Frisk. He thinks that Hyper Goner wasn't what destroyed the timeline based on indirect statements and subjective implications, and that Asriel was only destroying it in the second phase. Then I began to argue that, even if that was the case, Asriel would still be destroying it via a non-active passive effect, which is or was the current argument. His counter to that is "Well there's nothing implying that he was destroying it effortlessly". Eventually, he decided to contact other people to give their input on the matter, but no one else joined the thread.
 
Even if that was the argument, that's literally headcanon. Nothing implies Asriel was holding back subconciously "because deep down he didn't want to kill Frisk", and assuming such is completely baseless. It's a theory at best.
 
I think Low 2-C dura is fine, considering Frisk tanked hits from Asriel. But Frisk never harmed Asriel, At least 9-B, likely far higher should be good
 
Rather than going with something that even has to do with 9-B due to the absurd difference in question, I'd prefer "Unknown (Should be massively stronger than normal, but was unable to harm Asriel at any point in the fight)".
 
Eh, fine

Also Hyper Goner isn't relevant to Frisk tanking attacks from a guy who was passively destroying the timeline.
 
While I disagree with Low 2-C durability for Frisk, I do admit it's the most reasonable thing here next to the rest.

For Asriel just existing making the Low 2-C feat: Like a number of characters claimed to be passively doing something, Asriel's doing it (destroying the timeline) because he's actively using his powers for it, and doing so doesn't require them to do some body movements+saying what he's doing. There is no reason to claim Asriel just exists and that's ending the timeline in the same way we all exist and have our weight over Earth, Asriel's ending the timeline because he's willing so, either constantly so, or having done so before & the process being a bit slow. Claim something like this to be thought-based>claiming it to be passively because the latter assumes more.

The Hyper Goner starting the timeline to be destroyed slowly is such a headcanon, why would an attack that sucks in things around to destroy them would make the timeline do that? Why would Frisk have Low 2-C via it when the timeline and universe survived? It's nonsense, we don't know if the timeline is ending when the attack finishes, it's just claimed for no reason and it makes far more sense to say that it's ending when we're told it's ending, with Asriel showing his true power.

Asriel was using his full power against Frisk but we have no idea how much of his Low 2-C power that is as he's already doing his best feat trying to destroy the timeline while fighting Frisk, and if Asriel's every attack was Low 2-C then one would think he could end the timeline faster, or is a headcanon made that "the timeline was ending slowly because Asriel wanted to end it slowly for show but could end it quickly at once if he wanted to!", Asriel's feat is akin to some featless character lifting a huge rock with TK a bit higher and higher while fighting someone, and it's being fantasized, wanked in this thread as some featless character having always a huge rock over their head w/o any issue at all as easy as you walk while fighting someone smaller.

O. Flowey could already one-shot Frisk over and over and end that with Frisk being almost one-shotted, it kinda makes sense that Asriel, who has a better control over energy and reality, could do the same, he didn't want to kill you, the spectacle was just barking.

@Saikou_The_Lewd_King @WeeklyBattles @Therefir @Starter_Pack @Andytrenom @DemonGodMitchAubin @Agnaa @Ricsi-viragosi @Elizhaa
 
There's nothing implying he's actually trying to do it, and assuming it is a non-active passive effect is still reasonable, but even if we go with that Frisk is still Low 2-C.

Irrelevant to the current discussion.

I addressed this in the other thread, that isn't a valid point. Asriel not destroying the timeline faster when he potentially could have doesn't change anything. Same logic people use to downplay DBZ villains to below planet level. And assuming that him destroying the timeline required more effort than his final attack is absolutely absurd, if that's what you're going for. And on top of all that, there is still an infinite difference between Low 2-C and the tiers below it. In any case, it still makes Frisk Low 2-C.

Omega Flowey intentionally leaves you alive on the last one to continue tormenting you playfully, it is completely different from Asriel's final attack, which was his final attempt at getting rid of Frisk and finally winning, on top of the amount of effort we see him put into it, where as Flowey was just messing around. Extremely massive false equivalence.
 
Eficiente said:
Claim something like this to be thought-based>claiming it to be passively because the latter assumes more.
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if it were thought-based and not passive it wouldn't change much at all, that's still an absurdly miniscule amount of effort he's putting into this if he's doing it just by thinking
Eficiente said:
Asriel was using his full power against Frisk but we have no idea how much of his Low 2-C power that is as he's already doing his best feat trying to destroy the timeline while fighting Frisk
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you claimed earlier that asriel's destroying the timeline by merely thinking/willing it, and since he'd be multitasking this while trying to kill frisk that'd probably mean it took even less effort, fr how could something he's doing just by thinking take more effort or more of his power than an attack that he's shaking and screaming for that's just dumb
doing stuff >>> thinking
 
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also about the AP, from what I've seen being far stronger than a low 2-C doesn't necessarily make someone a higher tier than low 2-C, so frisk's AP being low 2-C may still be reasonable even if they were far weaker than asriel and couldn't harm him, also considering how AP scaling to durability is a given unless there's explicit enough evidence saying otherwise
 
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but yeah an attack that asriel had to use his body for and that we see he had to charge for a few seconds before firing, via logic, would be more powerful than what asriel is doing just by thinking and nothing else

asriel is clearly not strained in any way from casually destroying the timeline by thinking
asriel is shaking very hard and screaming while shooting the laser

asriel could destroy the whole ass timeline while casual about doing so
asriel could not destroy frisk while desperate to do so

also
Eficiente said:
The Hyper Goner starting the timeline to be destroyed slowly is such a headcanon
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Eficiente said:
it's just claimed for no reason
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asriel says "It's time to purge this timeline once and for all!" and then immediately uses the hyper goner
it's literally context clues lol, if it only started after asriel started using his true power then it would make more sense for him to immediately transform into his second phase after saying the "time to purge the timeline" thing instead of using a random other attack first

whichever thing caused the timeline's destruction doesn't matter really, frisk would still be low 2-C for tanking his final attack since it clearly took more effort than anything else he's done in the fight

yeah idk what else to say rn that wouldn't essentially be repeating myself ¯\(ツ)/¯
 
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I agree
At least that will make the UT downplay less cringe than how it already is
 
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@Eficiente

So have these arguments already been thoroughly handled previously, and if so, should we close this thread?
 
Antvasima said:
@Eficiente

So have these arguments already been thoroughly handled previously, and if so, should we close this thread?
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Its more of Efi disagrees with Asriel being Low 2-C in the first place, and any tier Asriel scales to Frisk's durability scales to as well, so its Asriel's tiering that needs to get changed before we can deny Frisk Low 2-C dura
 
Antvasima said:
So have these arguments already been thoroughly handled previously, and if so, should we close this thread?
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they haven't been "thoroughly handled" and his arguments just really aren't good anyway, you wanna, idk, read my and the others' arguments and come to a verdict and state it yourself instead of automatically siding with the staff member or whatever? .-.

7 people (8 including me) agree with upgrading frisk and 1 person disagrees, just closing the thread on the verdict that they shouldn't be changed despite that because the disagreeing person is a staff member or something would simply be unfair and a massive dick move, especially when the arguments presented on the majority side are honestly just better and at least less reliant on speculation, assumptions and the like
 
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I was not around the threads in which some characters were seemingly downgraded.

But from what I read, Justkillme and Rinneltachi makes the most sense.
 
So overall that's 10 people (counting me) who agree with Frisk scaling to Low 2-C.

What about AP for the tier? Our options are pretty much "Unknown", "Unknown, possibly (or likely) Low 2-C (Was unable to harm Asriel at any point in their fight, however their durability is at this level and they should likely be much stronger than normal", or "At least 9-B, likely far higher (Should be massively stronger than normal, but couldn't harm Asriel at any point during their fight.
 
Newendigo said:
I was not around the threads in which some characters were seemingly downgraded.

But from what I read, Justkillme and Rinneltachi makes the most sense.
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Yeah I wasn't there either, actually I couldn't even find the thread about it. Would like it if someone linked it to me.
 
I agree with Frisk scaling to Asriel durability, not AP, because Frisk couldnt hurt Asriel, and Flowey isnt rated as tier 2 anymore, so.... yeah, Low 2-C Frisk durability
 
Ok Low 2-C dura is pretty much unanimously agreed upon and Effeciente has yet to debunk the argument supporting it, I think that's already enough for a change. But can we reach a consensus about the AP? This has to be another key for Frisk so there must be something for their AP.
 
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