Undertale: Frisk and Chara revisions

[Justkillme42069]

original thread title: "nit-picking things I don't like about (and also making a couple genuine complaints about) the undertale profiles bc I'm bored"

someone said I should/can put this here so I will do that

• chara's intelligence is "presumably incredibly high" for literally no reason, they genuinely thought that putting flowers in a pie was a good idea they should be below average if anything lol
• frisk's durability "should be comparable to chara", who needed help just to walk after that fall into the mountain, while frisk was unscathed and unfazed from it
• frisk never runs in the overworld, they only walk, on froggit's profile "Can keep up with a low determination Frisk, who is capable of running at very near athletic speeds."
• average human lifting strength for frisk even though they can push stone rocks about 2/3rds their size across a seemingly stone floor without even slowing down
• the anomaly/player is very possibly not actually the player and them having a profile is pretty pointless anyway considering how vague said profile is lol
• why does monster kid have a profile
• genocide frisk is in chara's profile, even though 1. it isn't confirmed and it's barely implied that chara ever possesses them and 2. whoever's controlling the body, it's still frisk's body, and it's still frisk's strength
• frisk with minimal determination is comparable to "other" low level monsters lmao
• the sheer amount of classifications alphys has
• monsters supposedly target the soul with their attacks, but they're all 9-B for being able to harm frisk, even though they'd be attacking frisk's soul and not their body, their body being what survived the fall into the mountain and which is what has wall level durability lol
• this isn't exactly a complaint or nit-pick but asriel's 'slow destruction of the timeline' begins after the use of the hyper goner, which frisk survived and which asriel was surprised that frisk survived, frisk low 2-C with immense determination?haha jk unless?but seriously at the very least put "far higher" with immense determination instead of just regular "higher", even a "far higher" would be incredible downplay to me, they're holding their own against a universal+ enemy idc if asriel was holding back for the sake of holding back with a vague "fraction" of his power and I doubt he was holding back at the very end of the fight at least

idk talk about this maybe

 

[Arceus0x]

Seems legit

 

[DaReaperMan]

Seems legit

 

[Arceus0x]

didn't the monsters have their own 9-B feats as well though?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Undyne surviving a 2.5K or so joule fall for one thing

 

[Justkillme42069]

Undyne surviving a 2.5K or so joule fall for one thing

that does indeed sound like a pretty far fall, seems legit

 

[DaReaperMan]

that does indeed sound like a pretty far fall, seems legit

Its on her page for her durability section

 

[Justkillme42069]

Its on her page for her durability section

yeah i didn't check undyne's profile, the only ones i looked at while making this were frisk, chara, asriel and froggit lol

 

[RinneItachi]

"monsters supposedly target the soul with their attacks, but they're all 9-B for being able to harm frisk, even though they'd be attacking frisk's soul and not their body, their body being what survived the fall into the mountain and which is what has wall level durability lol"

Monster attacks harm the soul and the body. Napstablook's attacks visibly effect the Mad Dummy's possessed body, while also harming the Monster spirit itself. Omega Flowey stated he'd tear Frisk to bloody pieces. Toriel also uses her flames to cook food, and we recently got a statement once again mentioning her using it for purposes that high heat is normally used for, although I can't remember exactly what it was, meaning that Toriel is using actual fireballs that also harm the soul. I'm pretty sure there are also some other implications that I'm having trouble remembering. But yeah it's been implied on several occasions that Monster's harm people both physically and spiritually.

"genocide frisk is in chara's profile, even though 1. it isn't confirmed and it's barely implied that chara ever possesses them and 2. whoever's controlling the body, it's still frisk's body, and it's still frisk's strength"

I agree with the overall point that Genocide Frisk's feats shouldn't be on Chara's profile (and Chara possessing them only happens in specific moments, it's not literally happening at all times in the Genocide Route), but Chara definitely possesses them in the game. I haven't bothered trying to make a CRT about it or even bringing it up once, but it's pretty blatant that the player is canonically controlling Frisk most of the time, who likely isn't even actually doing anything during the game up until the end (and in a brief moment during the Omega Flowey fight intro). I might go ahead and make a longer message about it because it's barely been brought up and some people might want me to explain more, but to summarize it, Frisk is just a human who fell into the Underground, and might not even be much stronger than any of the previous human children (although that is somewhat theoretical). The player is the one controlling them, and whenever they do an action that you have no control over (moving around in the Genocide Route or attacking Sans on the strike that actually kills him) that's Chara taking control momentarily. The only time's where Frisk is genuinely acting on their own are when they move a step forwards in defiance of Omega Flowey (although that could be Chara as well but it's most likely Frisk), when they say their name to Asriel, and are simply living their life after the end of the Pacifist Route. Although I'm willing to explain my reasoning for all of this in more detail if anyone wants. Anyways, yeah Chara def shouldn't have a tier for Genocide Frisk's stats as that's literally just them possessing someone who's that strong, it's not Chara's actual strength.

Also, after checking out that last tidbit, I went to Frisk's profile, and uh...why does Frisk not have their Low 2-C key anymore? They pretty blatantly tanked the destruction of a timeline on screen, and somewhat scale to Asriel himself who performed that feat.

 

[RinneItachi]

Btw, can someone remind me what the new CRT rules are? Cause I remember something about having as few CRT's active as possible so that the site isn't crowded with them, so changes should all be kept within one active CRT at a time, but does that only apply to minor changes? Cause I'm thinking about making a CRT for a new page entirely and I don't think it's small enough to be included in an unrelated CRT thread.

 

[RinneItachi]

Oh yeah now I remember one of the other moments that prove Monster's attacks are physical and spiritual. Undyne can use her spears to cut off a large portion of a bridge, the same spears she uses in her fights, and she also uses them to break her own table (Frisk uses it right afterwards) as well as on the pot in her house, which also breaks the pot, meaning that Frisk is tanking those same spears while they also damage Frisk's soul.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

RinneItachi, could you please put your response in one post, it gets quite difficult to read posts like that--

Anyway, I'm not as knowledgeable within these kind of specifics so I'll refrain from voting on it until I see other counter arguments.

 

[RinneItachi]

? My second message was unrelated to the first, and my third one, while related, was something I only realized after I had made the first, and decided that leaving it in another message rather than editing my first would be fine. I don't know how it would make things difficult to read at all.

 

[Justkillme42069]

Oh yeah now I remember one of the other moments that prove Monster's attacks are physical and spiritual. Undyne can use her spears to cut off a large portion of a bridge, the same spears she uses in her fights, and she also uses them to break her own table (Frisk uses it right afterwards) as well as on the pot in her house, which also breaks the pot, meaning that Frisk is tanking those same spears while they also damage Frisk's soul.

oh yeah I forgot about all that stuff, makes sense you're right

 

[Justkillme42069]

but it's pretty blatant that the player is canonically controlling Frisk most of the time, who likely isn't even actually doing anything during the game up until the end (and in a brief moment during the Omega Flowey fight intro). I might go ahead and make a longer message about it because it's barely been brought up and some people might want me to explain more, but to summarize it, Frisk is just a human who fell into the Underground, and might not even be much stronger than any of the previous human children (although that is somewhat theoretical). The player is the one controlling them, and whenever they do an action that you have no control over (moving around in the Genocide Route or attacking Sans on the strike that actually kills him) that's Chara taking control momentarily. The only time's where Frisk is genuinely acting on their own are when they move a step forwards in defiance of Omega Flowey (although that could be Chara as well but it's most likely Frisk), when they say their name to Asriel, and are simply living their life after the end of the Pacifist Route.

most of the following are just frisk doing a variation of what you told them to do, but they're still notable

• refusing to do anything while others are talking (in pacifist/neutral and most of the time in genocide)
• every time they talk without you choosing a dialogue option, yes it happens other times than them saying their name to asriel (asking undyne why she won't deliver the letter herself, telling sans the time travel passwords, probably more that I forgot)
• hiding behind the lamp pacifist and neutral/not hiding behind the lamp in genocide, I doubt chara would be possessing them this early on
• tapping the dummy, socking it or whacking it at full force depending on how much LV they have, as well as feeling bad, not caring or feeling good about it, when the option only says "attack" or something along those lines, hell they'd be straight up disobeying you here in pacifist, tapping it with their fist isn't attacking it
• deliberately attacking undyne with as little force as possible even when you do perfect in the attack meter while hanging out at her house
• telling snowdrake that "no one will ever love them the way they are", when the option only said "heckle", this even happens when they're at LV 1 and either way I doubt chara would take control of frisk for a few seconds just to insult snowdrake
• walking menacingly towards papyrus and skipping his puzzles in genocide, again I doubt chara would be possessing them this early on, LV corrupts people mentally so when frisk deliberately gains this much LV in one area their usual politeness would probably be off the table
• still walking towards the shower curtain in the true lab, but doing it slowly like "player this is a bad idea you probably shouldn't go to the shower curtain no I'm warning you seriously a scary monster's gonna pop out PLAYER"
• (probably) deliberately weakening their last attack on asgore so that it leaves him with a sliver of health left instead of killing him
• walking over to hug asriel when the option only said comfort
• and saying their name to asriel like you said
• also just traveling to mt ebott in the first place if we wanna use stuff from when we aren't even there lol
• probably more stuff I forgot about

I can get why most people would think the player canonically controls frisk, but they at least have a lot more control over themselves than everyone gives them credit for, like chara said it's more "guidance" than absolute control

 

[Justkillme42069]

honestly the part in the asriel fight where the flashback plays could just be that frisk pieced it together on their own and is verbally reminding him of it lol, I doubt chara was telepathically transmitting the flashbacks into asriel's brain or whatever people think happens there

 

[Eficiente]

• this isn't exactly a complaint or nit-pick but asriel's 'slow destruction of the timeline' begins after the use of the hyper goner, which frisk survived and which asriel was surprised that frisk survived, frisk low 2-C with immense determination?haha jk unless?but seriously at least put "far higher" with immense determination instead of just regular "higher", that just sounds like incredible downplay to me, they're holding their own against a universal+ enemy idc if asriel was holding back for the sake of holding back with a vague "fraction" of his power and I doubt he was holding back at the very end of the fight at least

We don't really know if it begins after the use of the hyper goner, it can very well be due to his true power once he used it. Asriel being surprised doesn't mean anything in terms of if the attack was Low 2-C or not because it's something that makes perfect sense if it wasn't.

Asriel at full power could easily almost one-shot Frisk, paralyze them by doing nothing and destroy the timeline over a few minutes, but he was holding back against Frisk, hence his attack can somewhat harm them while by the end he can almost one-shot them, "almost" there meaning "he could if he wanted to but is doing what he can do not end Frisk". He did the same as O. Flowey, harming Frisk a bit but by the end one-shotting them. This is not "holding their own against a universal+ enemy", they're keeping up in speed, Frisk can't harm him and there are implications of Asriel holding back, that's no good scaling at all for AP and Durability.

Asriel wasn't "holding back for the sake of holding back", he had a very explicit reason for it. And it doesn't make sense to doubt if he was still holding back by the end when he literally has a break down, admits why he's doing what he's doing and is seconds from giving up the fight and going back to his old self. As O. Flowey he also one-shotted Frisk over and over and then left them with only a tiny bit of their HP, and as Asriel he has just missed his attacks at you like Toriel just before shooting the energy projection that didn't kill Frisk.

 

[Justkillme42069]

We don't really know if it begins after the use of the hyper goner, it can very well be due to his true power once he used it.

"It's time to purge this timeline once and for all!" uses hyper goner
you know what that implies/sounds like, but for the rest I guess you're probably right

 

[Eficiente]

He was destroying the timeline after that, meaning that he wasn't lying, and the hyper goner could have been to get rid of Frisk.

 

[Guardian_Doge]

? My second message was unrelated to the first, and my third one, while related, was something I only realized after I had made the first, and decided that leaving it in another message rather than editing my first would be fine. I don't know how it would make things difficult to read at all.

My point is if you’re going to make a comment, just format it all into one post.
There is no need to make several comments especially if one of them was unrelated to the CRT as you just said.
Anyway, I apologize for my derailment.

 

[RinneItachi]

I think Frisk barely controls themselves. The minor actions I still think are mostly the player, just that it doesn't really make it blatant. Either way, my basis for it is that it's exactly what's happening to Kris in Deltarune. As you go through the surface of the game, characters mention that you're not acting the way Kris usually would. And there's even something where, when you try to play the piano, it sounds awful, even though Kris is good at it. When Kris rips "his" soul out at the end of the game, and throws it into a cage, you can still move it around. Because the Determination soul is your soul. The power to SAVE, LOAD, and Reset come from you. This is even made clear at the start of Deltarune, where we're literally making a vessel for ourselves to use with our soul of Determination. Instead, we were forced to use Kris as a host. A more minor theory I have is that Frisk and Kris are actually unknown soul types, but since that theory dives deep into theoretical territory, I won't get into it. But yeah, the same thing clearly applies to Frisk, especially on top of all the suggestions we already have in Undertale alone.

As for the Asriel feat...what? Literally ******* anyone would agree that Asriel destroying the timeline happened with his Hyper Goner attack. If Frieza says he's gonna destroy the planet, and proceeds to throw a menacing Ki blast downwards, but it gets blocked by Goku, would we assume that Frieza's attack there wasn't supposed to be what destroyed the planet? Was Vegeta's Galick Gun not the attack from Vegeta that was supposed to obliterate the Earth? This is literally common sense. Hyper Goner was blatantly what destroyed the timeline, I have no idea how that could be argued against.

 

[Armorchompy]

You don't push the rocks, you ask them to move.

 

[Arceus0x]

no you move 2/3 rocks and ask the last one to move

 

[Eficiente]

As for the Asriel feat...what? Literally ******* anyone would agree that Asriel destroying the timeline happened with his Hyper Goner attack. If Frieza says he's gonna destroy the planet, and proceeds to throw a menacing Ki blast downwards, but it gets blocked by Goku, would we assume that Frieza's attack there wasn't supposed to be what destroyed the planet? Was Vegeta's Galick Gun not the attack from Vegeta that was supposed to obliterate the Earth? This is literally common sense. Hyper Goner was blatantly what destroyed the timeline, I have no idea how that could be argued against.

Read the blog linked on the profiles like Flowey's, there is a part going over this. We don't say the attack wasn't going to destroy the timeline "because why not?", but because the timeline was still there, the timeline being stated to still be there>the idea that the hyper goner would have erased it. The idea that the hyper goner didn't destroy it still fits with everything and hopefully that's all that needs to be said about it.

 

[RinneItachi]

You move the first two which are inanimate, actual rocks. The third one is a Monster and moves by itself. Frisk is definitely pushing rocks that go up to around their chin over a stone floor, and very casually no less. Toriel must obviously be capable of moving said rocks herself, so it's a feat for both of them. All that's left is to calc how much lifting strength it would constitute, scaling the rocks to Frisk's presumed height (minimum of 4 feet).

 

[RinneItachi]

Read the blog linked on the profiles like Flowey's, there is a part going over this. We don't say the attack wasn't going to destroy the timeline "because why not?", but because the timeline was still there, the timeline being stated to still be there>the idea that the hyper goner would have erased it. The idea that the hyper goner didn't destroy it still fits with everything and hopefully that's all that needs to be said about it.

When was it said that the timeline was still there? If you mean the statement that the whole world is ending, that could mean so many things and is such a vague statement, that it doesn't remotely debunk Asriel's Hyper Goner destroying the timeline at all, that's such a massive stretch, and is blatantly ignoring what Toby's intentions clearly were.

 

[Eficiente]

I told you to read that part of the blog, go do that. I already went over why it wouldn't mean destroying the world as in the game as Asriel didn't want to do that and still aims to reset things later. Something that makes perfect sense is no massive stretch that blatantly ignores anything, Toby's intentions like you say is just bad speculation.

 

[Armorchompy]

no you move 2/3 rocks and ask the last one to move

True enough. Then I suppose one could calculate their weight. Here's an example of a pushing calc.

 

[RinneItachi]

Was already gonna go read the blog section about this anyways.

For starters, mentioning the fact that he says "world" multiple times is irrelevant. And yes we can assume he destroyed all of the humans behind the barrier with his attack under the view of him indeed destroying it with Hyper Goner. But onto the more important notes.

He was saying that, as Flowey, he wanted to destroy the world, as in presumably slaughtering everyone on the planet or something similar. He uses timeline separately, saying that he now just wants to Reset everything so he could repeat it. Used in the same sentence=/=used in the same context. How is that later text meant to mean anything? That was Flowey speaking to you after the game ended, and when the timeline had been restored.

 

[Arceus0x]

What do we assume as frisk's height?

 

[RinneItachi]

They've been determined as likely pre-teen in age due to their height consistently being calced between 4 to 5 feet. If we went with 4 feet for a lowball estimate, the rocks still reach up to their chin, so they would be somewhere around three feet tall I assume. Other than that there are a shit ton of details with the rock's weight that I can't really get into because I don't know about any of that, but I imagine the rocks are at least several hundred pounds each, and the feat itself would likely be above that due to the fact that Frisk is pushing them against a rocky surface, and again, Frisk is doing this casually, in a matter of seconds.

At the very least it definitely goes as further proof that humans in Undertale are not equal to irl humans.

 

[Arceus0x]

frisk is 29 pixels while the rock is 15

 

[RinneItachi]

So about half Frisk's height? Then nvm more like 2 feet. Damn that knocks it down a peg but should still be calced as it's better than nothing.

 

[RinneItachi]

Anyways gonna be off for a while so if there are more arguments, I'm only not responding because I'm not here.

 

[Arceus0x]

i used some stuff i found about child heights.
I am gonna use the average height between a 10 and a 12 year old and say that they are 57 inches tall or 144.78cm
so the rock is around 74.88cm
it's width is 22 pixels i think so 144.78/29 = 4.99 so a pixel is 4.99cm
the rock is 109.8cm
now for width it gets tricky.
we only see the frontal curve so i will take the 4 pixels that it is and say that it is symmetrical and say that the width of it is 8 pixels or 39.93cm

now here is the problem... the top and bottom are not symmetrical. We will need to calc the top as a half-sphere and the bottom as a cylinder.
top is 9 pixels bottom is presumably 6 thus the half-sphere is 44.93cm while the bottom is 29.95cm

length for hs is 74.88cm and bottom is still 109.8cm

width is idk

 

[Eficiente]

For starters, mentioning the fact that he says "world" multiple times is irrelevant. And yes we can assume he destroyed all of the humans behind the barrier with his attack under the view of him indeed destroying it with Hyper Goner. But onto the more important notes.

He was saying that, as Flowey, he wanted to destroy the world, as in presumably slaughtering everyone on the planet or something similar. He uses timeline separately, saying that he now just wants to Reset everything so he could repeat it. Used in the same sentence=/=used in the same context. How is that later text meant to mean anything? That was Flowey speaking to you after the game ended, and when the timeline had been restored.

There is no magic distinction between world and timeline for it, Flowey and Chara wanted to destroy the world and because of Flowey/Asriel we know they meant as in the timeline. Flowey and Asriel are the same, Asriel saying that the "world" is still there, the game saying the same and Flowey wanting to destroy the world means the world/timeline is still there, that's common sense. We can't assume the attack went past something it didn't destroy because it didn't destroy that something in between what's shown of the attack and what's being claimed it destroyed, and the reason why you want to claim that it destroyed the humans doesn't make sense.

Why would you say that Flowey only wanted to slaughter "everyone on the planet or something similar" when he states as O. Flowey that he needs 1 more soul to do the evil thing he wants to do and he claims that has the same view of life as Chara, what he wanted to do is clearly the same, the next step to do it, not some derailment from it. The rest is nonsense.

 

[Justkillme42069]

anyone have objections to chara's intelligence section being changed to just "unknown, seems to be knowledgeable about monsters and the underground" or something like that instead of "presumably incredibly high" or genocide frisk's key being moved to frisk's actual profile?

 

[RinneItachi]

"magic distinction" Kekw but saying that world in this context consistently and always means timeline based on personal interpretation, and thinking that the word world being used repeatedly after Hyper Goner means the timeline is still there, rather than simply using what we know at base level is fine. Also Asriel and the game didn't specifically say that the world is still there, that's a blatant twist of the context. We can though? A being with one soul can't destroy the Barrier, but can move through it. The Barrier isn't literally a solid, fully physical object, it's a magical construct with certain rules to it. An attack from a being that can move through and even break the Barrier also being able to move through the Barrier makes perfect sense, especially when a Monster with only one human soul can already move through it without issue.

He said that he needs one more soul to become God and show humans, monsters, everyone what the true meaning of the world is, that's actually much more in line with "slaughtering everyone on the planet or something similar" than "destroy the timeline". And no, his goals are not the same as Genocide Chara. Chara later in the Genocide Route is a power hungry ghost that wanted to kill everyone, erase the timeline, move on to the next world (whether that's supposed to be a new timeline or something else) and gain more power by killing the people there, their entire purpose is just "kill and get stronger", Flowey craved power yes, but only because it would allow him to make people suffer.

 

[Justkillme42069]

anyone have objections to chara's intelligence section being changed to just "unknown, seems to be knowledgeable about monsters and the underground" or something like that instead of "presumably incredibly high" or genocide frisk's key being moved to frisk's actual profile?

i'd like to know if we can just go ahead and make those changes real quick

 

[RinneItachi]

Idk if we can just change it like that, but I do agree with changing it. Chara's intelligence being "Presumably incredibly high" makes little sense, has literally no justification for it on the page, and is honestly a bit based on headcanon.

As for my thoughts on their intelligence, people forget that Chara is still a child. Flowey (while still somewhat naive and childish in some respects) has been abusing time manipulation so much that he literally did everything there was to do in the Underground, so him having his intelligence is fairly valid (although I think it should be noted that, due to his lack of a soul and feelings of empathy, he can't understand certain emotions others may hold). But Chara wasn't remotely sentient between the time of their death and their awakening upon the game starting. Their mind was still the exact same it was when they died all that time ago. I say was cause it clearly changes massively over the Genocide Route, but even after Genocide, there's little reason at all to assume Chara has particularly high intelligence. I think the only reason people assume they do is because Chara speaks in a somewhat intellectual manner, rather than what you'd expect from a child. But that doesn't really change that their mind should still be that of a pre-teen. And as you said, they literally thought that buttercup flowers in a pie wouldn't be bad. At best, I think they'd have average intelligence, maybe as low as below average.

Also about Flowey, in his weaknesses section, the whole killing intent weakness is in there for some reason. But Flowey isn't actually a Monster. When Asriel died, his essence spread onto a flower bed. Alphys took one of those flowers and imbued it with Determination. That Determination gave Asriel life within a flower, but the flower itself is still a flower, furthermore, he doesn't have a Monster soul anymore, nor any soul at all. He isn't a Monster in the literal sense of Undertale. We even see this upon his death in any route, where he doesn't become dust, but just gets killed. On Pacifist/Neutral, he dies and becomes a regular flower again. On Genocide, Chara repeatedly hits him so much that his body breaks down into visibly nothing, but doesn't turn to dust either, of course.