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Heavenly Record Eater downgrade (Instant Death)

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Delta333

Delta333

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Abstract Existence (Embodied countless space-times[1]).
The scan simply says that a part of its existence is spacetime rather than its entire existence being spacetime itself (spacetime in verse is conceptual), this is wrong for AE 1, like when a character with a conceptual hand and physical body is obviously not AE 1 at all. So it should either be removed or downgraded to limited AE 1, although I think being removed should be better since nothing suggests that it can still function with just that spacetime part alone.

Edit: Forget to say that Yogiri’s conceptual manipulation and NPI on concept will be removed as a result unless he has another feat rather than killing the heavenly records eater, which seems to not exist on the profile.

Agree: 12 (Grabbing_dragon, SweetDao, Shiraito983, KingNanaya, Eseseso, Qliphoth_Bacikal, Dark_Soul20189, Vietthai96, Robo432343, ActuallySpaceMan42, DarkDragonMedeus, Catzlaflame)
Disagree:
Neutral:
 
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Delta333 said:
Forget to says that Yogiri’s conceptual manipulation and NPI on concept will be removed as a result unless he has another feat rather than killing the heavenly records eater, which seems to not exist on the profile.
Click to expand...
He did state himself being capable of killing "concepts" as to what it entails specifically, no one knows. He did state that he could "kill gravity" inside Mitsuki's world.
 
Delta333 said:
The scan simply says that a part of its existence is spacetime rather than its entire existence being spacetime itself
Click to expand...
I'd argue that they aren't conceptual at all and that the phrase used just mean they can control time and space, but that's beside the point. Yeah, I agree with the thread.
 
Delta333 said:
Forget to says that Yogiri’s conceptual manipulation and NPI on concept will be removed as a result unless he has another feat rather than killing the heavenly records eater, which seems to not exist on the profile.
Click to expand...
Put that in the OP.

Which I agree with, btw.
 
SweetDao said:
Once again, Yogiri should be capable of killing "gravity" inside Mitsuki's Celestial Foundation, he just never did it. That should be enough for NPI. Although I suppose there is an argument to make if he truly erases "the concept of gravity" or merely "the physical phenomenon" of gravity.
Click to expand...
From this, it seems he was very much capable of killing gravity, the book also mentions that "when killing a phenomenon or concept, limiting the area was difficult" it also clearly states that it's why he didn't kill the "space " earlier, then he chooses to kill his "momentum"


It's clear he has NPI and can kill gravity, space and momentum
Furthermore, it is straight up name-dropped that it's a concept he can kill,

This should be clear cut NPI and conceptual destruction IMO
 
The previous statement says that he can erase the gravity across entire world, so another way to interpret is that the concept of gravity will just be deleted indirectly as a result, which is not conceptual manipulation like the conceptual manipulation page said:
For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.
Click to expand...
 
Delta333 said:
The previous statement says that he can't erase the gravity across entire world, so another way to interpret is that the concept of gravity will just be deleted indirectly as a result, which is not conceptual manipulation like the conceptual manipulation page said:
Click to expand...
No, it said that if he wasn't careful, he could erase gravity across the entire world instead of around himself, since he wanted to erase gravity to stop falling, normally this would just be taken as destroying the aspect of gravity, not concept BUT it then follows up with an explanation that when erasing concepts, limiting the area was difficult, which means he was erasing the concept of gravity, not just the aspect. It's pretty blatant tbh
 
Jaakor48 said:
No, it said that if he wasn't careful, he could erase gravity across the entire world instead of around himself, since he wanted to erase gravity to stop falling, normally this would just be taken as destroying the aspect of gravity, not concept BUT it then follows up with an explanation that when erasing concepts, limiting the area was difficult, which means he was erasing the concept of gravity, not just the aspect. It's pretty blatant tbh
Click to expand...
I wouldn't said it's as cut and dry as you may think. At first he wanted to erase gravity (which is a physical phenomenon) and then, after, decided to erase his momentum (another physical phenomenon).

It could very well be deleting gravity in the physical sense of the term rather than deleting gravity altogether.
 
Jaakor48 said:
No, it said that if he wasn't careful, he could erase gravity across the entire world instead of around himself, since he wanted to erase gravity to stop falling, normally this would just be taken as destroying the aspect of gravity, not concept BUT it then follows up with an explanation that when erasing concepts, limiting the area was difficult, which means he was erasing the concept of gravity, not just the aspect. It's pretty blatant tbh
Click to expand...
No one said that he can’t destroy the concept of gravity, what matters here is whether he does so directly or not. Which is why I bring up the order of the statements for discussion, since it’s said to erase the gravity first, then the part about erasing the concept of gravity follows that.

Edit: got ninja’d
 
SweetDao said:
I wouldn't said it's as cut and dry as you may think. At first he wanted to erase gravity (which is a physical phenomenon) and then, after, decided to erase his momentum (another physical phenomenon).

It could very well be deleting gravity in the physical sense of the term rather than deleting gravity altogether.
Click to expand...
I would agree with you, however we have an explanation immediately after telling us what exactly the scale of what was being done and why he had to be careful, I man, unless you have proof that the statement talking about deleting concepts was flowery or metaphorical, it seems blatant imho.
Delta333 said:
No one said that he can’t destroy the concept of gravity, what matters here is whether he does so directly or not. Which is why I bring up the order of the statements for discussion, since it’s said to erase the gravity first, then the part about erasing the concept of gravity follows that.

Edit: got ninja’d
Click to expand...
The statement makes it clear it was directly, it even specifies that limiting the area of effect when destroying concepts was difficult, oys clearly direct, as opposed to "destroying all gravity erases the concept "


Basically destroying a concept and limiting it to a certain AOE is very difficult, the fact that that this immediately follows him wanting to erase gravity and then expressing worry about inadvertantly erasing it access the entire world further shows what the explanation means
 
Jaakor48 said:
The statement makes it clear it was directly, it even specifies that limiting the area of effect when destroying concepts was difficult, oys clearly direct, as opposed to "destroying all gravity erases the concept "


Basically destroying a concept and limiting it to a certain AOE is very difficult, the fact that that this immediately follows him wanting to erase gravity and then expressing worry about inadvertantly erasing it access the entire world further shows what the explanation means
Click to expand...
I mean both "erasing the concept by erasing all the gravity" and "erasing all the gravity by erasing the concept" are equally difficult when limiting to just a certain area so this statement doesn't show much difference tbh, as gravity itself is a global force that doesn't exist in plurality (there are no numerous kinds of gravity in ID for Yogiri to target at all), the same goes to the concept of gravity that exists everywhere that gravity exists. So when he erases gravity or the concept of gravity, he simply targets a singular force or concept, which is hard for him to not delete them all from the entire world. So it could go either way as opposed to just erasing directly.
Vietthai96 said:
Look fine, but isn't on Yogiri profile it said he can kill space-time in the verse and space-time is conceptual??, or i missing something here??
Click to expand...
The spacetime on his profile refers to the Heavenly Record Eater since they treat both are the same thing despite spacetime is just a part of HRE. Well he only shows to kill HRE rather than the spacetime itself to my knowledge.
 
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Delta333 said:
The spacetime on his profile refers to the Heavenly Record Eater since they treat both are the same thing despite spacetime is just a part of HRE eater. Well he only shows to kill HRE eater rather than the spacetime itself to my knowledge
Click to expand...
Well, it is suck then, just remove CM until there is new evidences, but what about CM1 on his True Form tab??
 
Delta333 said:
I mean both "erasing the concept by erasing all the gravity" and "erasing all the gravity by erasing the concept" are equally difficult when limiting to just a certain area so this statement doesn't show much difference tbh, as gravity itself is a global force that doesn't exist in plurality (there are no numerous kinds of gravity in ID for Yogiri to target at all), the same goes to the concept of gravity that exists everywhere that gravity exists. So when he erases gravity or the concept of gravity, he simply targets a singular force or concept, which is hard for him to not delete them all from the entire world. So it could go either way as opposed to just erasing directly.
Click to expand...
Would it be more likely that he's referring to direct or indirect destruction based on the statement?


Occam's razor might be the way to go here
 
bro i think ae 1 should stay at least
yogiri is telling me to save him from these downgrades
1000

latest
 
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Jaakor48 said:
Would it be more likely that he's referring to direct or indirect destruction based on the statement?


Occam's razor might be the way to go here
Click to expand...
Both "erasing gravity across the world"and "erasing the concept" are mentioned rather only the latter so Occam's razor doesn't increase the possibility of being direct destruction at all. The reason I bring up the order of statements is because in a sentence the former is usually the cause while the latter most of time refers to the effects, hence erasing the concept is likely the result of erasing gravity across the world. Even if we ignore what I said, the very next sentence also said that "even if he killed gravity" just shows that the mention to erasing gravity as a force outnumbers the mention to erasing the concept, so we should go to the choice of erasing indirectly.
Vietthai96 said:
Well, it is suck then, just remove CM until there is new evidences, but what about CM1 on his True Form tab??
Click to expand...
The profile has neither scan nor justification so unless someone can explain why he has that, it should be removed as well.
 
Vietthai96 said:
Hmm, i think just keep it, cause he define the entire cosmology which including conceptual foundations
Click to expand...
I mean if we go that way then does that mean a character who can affect the entire cosmology (or just the universe) can have practically most of abilities in the wiki? I don't think it works like that.
 
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