Hax Layer Evaluation Thread

[LordGinSama]

If you have a higher authority, you can resist whatever the lower authority character throws at you regardless of potency or layering, and can also pierce through any resistances they might have

That sounds a lot more like a caveat / power hierarchy thing than actual layers.


Last part again sounds more like resistance negation. Furthermore, The Nasuverse has different levels of authority, some of which even have infinitely higher authorities that others which would go against the concept of layering.


Someone with 4-D resistances obviously isn't gonna be able to resist 5-D authority due to dimensional jazz.

 

[Deagonx]

An ability becoming stronger does not automatically mean it is layered unless it is shown to overcome a resistance.

I don't see this notion of authorities as relating to layers, per se. It just seems like generic magnitude (the person with more magic power is stronger) and not infinite layers. Otherwise we'd have every notion of quantized power behind hax as being infinitely layered. But this should likely be determined in a separate thread.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I don't see this notion of authorities as relating to layers, per se. It just seems like generic magnitude (the person with more magic power is stronger) and not infinite layers. Otherwise we'd have every notion of quantized power behind hax as being infinitely layered. But this should likely be determined in a separate thread.

Authority is separate from base power, as Karnas armor allows him to resist the authority of the moon cell despite being weaker than it.

"Regardless of potency and layering" is a bit of a reach, for what ultimately amounts to confirmation of Authority granting better hax and resistances but no confirmation that each singular difference is a layer.

Angra Mainyu and Primate murder have the absolute authority to kill humans, regardless of their strength.

https://i.gyazo.com/7617d1d1ebfbc9a0da14edfc8835e4fb.png

 

[Deagonx]

Authority is separate from base power, as Karnas armor allows him to resist the authority of the moon cell despite being weaker than it.

The impression I get is that it is a different kind of power. Having multiple scales of power doesn't mean it's layered hax, however.

But it seems we've settled on handling this in a separate thread.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Yang Qi has the following listed in his first key:

• Resistance Negation (Each level of cultivation level negates the resistances and of lower cultivators)

He will most likely lose it but I thought I should at-least try. The following is simply for his first key, not his second key. I think a CRT is needed for his second key because cultivation changes/branches into other systems.

Anyways, here:

Introduction​

What is cultivation? Within the framework of Divine Dreamwalker's verses or at-least Sage Monarch, it is the attainments through enlightenment. They are inaccessible levels without the appropriate enlightenment. Increasing one's strength does not increase cultivation level, without enlightenment, you would simply be increasing your general strength and not your cultivation level, as cultivation requires enlightenment on the Dao.

Enlightenment​

Once the characters has acquired sufficient enlightenment and fulfilled the conditions to advance, they advance into the next cultivation level. In regards to enlightenment and the specifics, this blog should give you a general outline on the conditions and the changes that come with each level. however, the first level is simply a foundation for the rest and as the cultivation realms change, they become more complicated.

With each cultivation advancement comes new abilities and physiological and metaphysical changes. For example, advancing into the Energy Manifestation level grants you abilities such as telekinesis, flight, etc. An example of a physiological change would be the Space-Void Transformation which turns every particle that make you up into spatial dimensions. It is important to note their physical body naturally gets upgraded to accommodate their level, however this is only baseline as people usually use techniques to further improve their body to conform to their techniques. And at the Legendary level it is normal for your your body type would conform to your technique. The Great Sage Level further changing them and each realm after that doing the same.

It isn't the body that also gets upgraded to their level, it is also their soul. Yang Qi mentions his soul's level in accordance with his level of enlightenment multiple times. And one of the few times his soul enlightenment was above his body's is also a mention between the gap in the substructure and laws between him and a higher cultivator.

Cultivation Levels Differences​

The basic truth that of cultivation levels are higher cultivators are stronger while lower cultivators are weaker, neither being able to surpass the limits set on them by their levels. You can't defeat a higher cultivator, foes can simply disregard whatever hax/abilities you have provided you're of a lower cultivation level. However, there are certain geniuses that can fight that can challenged higher cultivators. Essentially your ability wouldn't work against a higher cultivator and the cultivators that can challenge higher cultivators also have a limit, for example Yang Qi who couldn't affect the fate of people over several levels above him at the time.

Now, from the perspective of a higher cultivator against a lower cultivator, they're easy pickings. While those of their own level can usually resist, lower cultivators are almost always victims and while unnecessary we do sometimes get specific level difference reminders such as a Nonary Lifeseizer's devilization ability against even Quinary lifeseizers (4 levels below). Some other examples of the stomp nature between levels:

• Being able to wipe out lower cultivators from existence with their gaze.
• Disregarding a lower cultivator's laws
• Literally turning a lower cultivator into his personal mount
• Make them explode, not even leaving behind a will, soul, nascent divinity, etc.
• Remove their laws and essence.
• Mindhax
• Existence absorption.
• Sentence them to death.
• See through their existence.
• Fear Hax.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Quick question about if an example is layered or not.

So this guy can hold something indefinitely that would put anyone else unconscious (supernaturally induced) but someone else used sleep magic on him and it works. Would that be fine for layers or would it just be 2 entirely separate things.

 

[KingNanaya]

Honestly, to all other Nasu supporters, it'd be easier if you just compiled your stuff into a coherent post.

Will soon

 

[Deagonx]

So this guy can hold something indefinitely that would put anyone else unconscious (supernaturally induced) but someone else used sleep magic on him and it works. Would that be fine for layers or would it just be 2 entirely separate things.

I wouldn't leap to assume it's layered, or that the sleep magic simply overcame his resistance. It could be, but I would have to examine it in the full context to know for certain.

 

[Eseseso]

Did we finish discussing Anos/MGK layers?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Did we finish discussing Anos/MGK layers?

We're holding off on that for now.

Quick question about if an example is layered or not.

So this guy can hold something indefinitely that would put anyone else unconscious (supernaturally induced) but someone else used sleep magic on him and it works. Would that be fine for layers or would it just be 2 entirely separate things.

I would say that's fine, yes.

Anyways, since Touhou was brought up earlier, I'll work on explaining that and who scales to what. I've updated the OP with more verses in need of evaluating, although it seems like KH and Nasuverse are still being discussed so I'd like to keep things focused on those for now. Apologies I haven't been active here very much, life's been getting in the way.

 

[KingNanaya]

from my very, very basic understanding, Authority works like this:

Nasuverse Gods have authority that varies in amount between them

The more authority you have, the better you can resist things from people with lower authority which may involve outright negating certain effects. an example of this would be Tiamat resisting Ereshkigal's abilities while in Kur, where Ereshkigal is supposed to have the most authority

She did this by changing into her draconic form (it looks neat) and gaining more authority, and could be considered more of a god than she already was

Transformation into dragon form complete! The creature before you is undoubtedly a god in itself!

Arjuna had absorbed 8 or so other Hindu gods and gained their authorities.

Zeus has authority over "infinite things" but not an infinite amount of authority, and has the authority of all other greek gods. this, along with the note on Zeus' page:

Note: The statement that Zeus is more powerful than Arjuna Alter is commonly taken out of context. The discussion was in regards to Zeus being a more difficult opponent, as unlike Arjuna Alter, his power couldn't be weakened by affecting faith in him due to his divine nature being an integral part of his Aletheia, thus in that way he could be called stronger. The only time he was explicitly regarded as the "most powerful" enemy Chaldea has ever faced was by Goredolf, who hadn't seen his capabilities and was only panicking upon learning of his inability to be weakened.

means to me that Authority does have layers, but not infinitely many. and seeing as there is no real baseline, I think it should be an unknown amount of layers until supporters are able to figure out a baseline (I really don't recommend doing it in this thread, as there are a stupid amount of Nasu characters with authority).

But it seems we've settled on handling this in a separate thread.

I think we can wrap up the authority stuff here and cover regular magecraft/authority interactions in another thread, because I really don't want to take up too much time on this

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Here is how layering works in Low Dimensional Game if anyone want to evaluate.


There are a total of nine different levels, with the gap between the start of a level and the peak of one being extremely vast. On top of this, due to the verses unique power System of SFU & Mind Power, the stronger one is the higher one's resistances. Here are examples of such;

• It is shown here that being a higher level than someone else allows you to resist attacks, such as ones on your soul and perception.
• It is shown here that being a lower level means your resistances to curses are weaker.
• And even the body's ability to resist things that would normally reduce you to ash is determined by one's power.
• It is stated here than being stronger allows you to overwhelm people's resistances.
• Going further, Wizards were able to break free of Dream Space and its effects simply because they had more Mind Power than other people.
• Moments after the feat above was displayed those Wizard's Mind Power was then easily suppressed by the very same person who suppressed them initially. Sed person was Level Four while the Wizards in the scans are Level One to Three, hinting that a stronger person can overpower resistances simply by trying harder.

It should also be stated that levels are not linear, although the only difference between levels is fundamentally Source Form Units, which are measured in numerical values. For example, Level 1 has 7 SFU, while Level 3 caps at 129, meaning levels are not really what is important and one's resistances are simply based on SFU.

Levels 1-9; 1-9 Layers of Resistances

Space-Time Rulers; Infinite Layers of Resistances (Consist of a Hierarchy of Infinite Beings each being stronger than the last with even the weakest being stronger than Level 9 beings.)

This

 

[Theglassman12]

@Rakih_Elyan Yeah not seeing infinite layers when the context revolves around a bunch of dudes who range from High 1-B to Low 1-A so it doesn’t strike me as layers. A good chunk of your scans also just talk about how normal people would be affected by certain abilities but wizards can shrug it off. Not really any indication of layers. Neither is the whole illusion thing since the wording is too vague and the whole “corrosion and turning into a ghost doesn’t really indicate layers since it mentions they’d just be affected after a while and have to resort to doing other stuff. At best you have potentially one layer with the whole “level 1 and 2 being affected but 3 and 4s are fine” but you’re also gonna need to prove level 1 and 2 have those resistances in the first place.

@KingNanaya is there any other scans about Authority where you wouldn’t be able to resist the ability but growing stronger in authority grants resistances?

 

[KingNanaya]

@KingNanaya is there any other scans about Authority where you wouldn’t be able to resist the ability but growing stronger in authority grants resistances?

would need to look for those. may take a bit though

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Yeah not seeing infinite layers when the context revolves around a bunch of dudes who range from High 1-B to Low 1-A so it doesn’t strike me as layers. A good chunk of your scans also just talk about how normal people would be affected by certain abilities but wizards can shrug it off. Not really any indication of layers. Neither is the whole illusion thing since the wording is too vague and the whole “corrosion and turning into a ghost doesn’t really indicate layers since it mentions they’d just be affected after a while and have to resort to doing other stuff. At best you have potentially one layer with the whole “level 1 and 2 being affected but 3 and 4s are fine” but you’re also gonna need to prove level 1 and 2 have those resistances in the first place.

I don't mind of the layers are being removed tbh.

The verse are already on Infinitely Low 1-A smurf.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Fwiw, I share Glass' opinion about KH and LDG layers. Also, please be patient on the Touhou layers since there's a LOT of ground to cover for a lot of different powers and it makes my head hurt.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Rakih_Elyan don’t really see how it being an infinitely low 1-A smurf proves anything but ok.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

@Rakih_Elyan don’t really see how it being an infinitely low 1-A smurf proves anything but ok.

Layers are useless at that tier lol

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

@Rakih_Elyan Yeah not seeing infinite layers when the context revolves around a bunch of dudes who range from High 1-B to Low 1-A so it doesn’t strike me as layers. A good chunk of your scans also just talk about how normal people would be affected by certain abilities but wizards can shrug it off. Not really any indication of layers. Neither is the whole illusion thing since the wording is too vague and the whole “corrosion and turning into a ghost doesn’t really indicate layers since it mentions they’d just be affected after a while and have to resort to doing other stuff. At best you have potentially one layer with the whole “level 1 and 2 being affected but 3 and 4s are fine” but you’re also gonna need to prove level 1 and 2 have those resistances in the first place.

The layers were talked about and agreed with by staff on this thread, you can go through it.

 

[Theglassman12]

@ActuallySpaceMan42 all I’m seeing is Blue and White stuff, not Low Dimensional Game stuff. So yeah still not convinced.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

@ActuallySpaceMan42 all I’m seeing is Blue and White stuff, not Low Dimensional Game stuff. So yeah still not convinced.

What are you talking about? That's not a B&W thread.

 

[Theglassman12]

The OP has sandboxes linked to Blue and White pages. Where’s the Low Dimensional game scans?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Where’s the Low Dimensional game scans?

Oh my bad, I have a habit of reusing old blogs once they get accepted. Here you go; https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Profession_Physiology_(Low_Dimensional_Game)

 

[Theglassman12]

The resistance levels Rakih already brought that up in the thread, I’m only seeing like 1 layer at best and that’s assuming level 1 and 2 characters have established resistance against those abilities.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

The resistance levels Rakih already brought that up in the thread, I’m only seeing like 1 layer at best and that’s assuming level 1 and 2 characters have established resistance against those abilities.

Ok, do you mind @ Qaws? If he agrees with you I won't argue about it.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

About nasuverse layers, I'm not gonna bother with the authority stuff since that's more complex and more tiresome, so others can have fun with that, but I can at least try to make an argument about normal resistance of servants.

Servants, by default, are Divine Mysteries, beings of immense mystery, something that grants them a great deal of resistance in general to stuff, however, among several servants exist a certain skill specific of certain classess or individuals, the Magic Resistance skill, this skill is divided among ranks:
Rank E: The lowest possible Magic Resistance, it go from reducing the effectiveness of spells to completely resist weak magic.

Its effect is merely light damage mitigation against magic rather than full neutralization.

A Skill that nullifies low ranking Magecraft spells.

Rank D: The point at which Magic resistance become more significant, as spell of low rank get completely resisted, examples include Archer resisting spatial hax

Magic Resistance is weak; its rank is D. In other words, spells greater than one bar will overwhelm this resistance. The benefit it provides is equivalent to an anti-magical amulet. This level of resistance can be easily overcome by a relatively powerful magus.

Magical Resistance: D
Nullifies Magecraft spells that were done in one step (a Single Action). A Magical Resistance of the same degree as an amulet that rejects Magical Energy.

Magical Resistance: D
A Skill that nullifies Magecraft spells that were done in one step (a Single Action). A Magical Resistance of the same degree as an amulet that rejects Magical Energy.

An example of hax getting resisted by this Rank include Archer resisting Medea spatial hax.
Rank C: At this point one resist spells of medium level.

Magic Resistance of rank C. Magic using incantations of two bars or lower are nullified, but above this, the ability is unable to resist High Thaumaturgy and Greater Rituals.

Magic Resistance: C
Negates spells with a chant of two verses or less. Cannot defend against something more complex, like high magecraft or ritual curses.

An example of hax getting resisted by this rank is Medusa petrification most of the time not working against those with MR Rank C, or Violet Crack Ice which need MR Rank C to get resisted.
Rank B: At this point people is basically immune to anything besides high thaumaturgy and grand rituals, and even those have problems affecting someone with this rank.

Rank B Magic Resistance easily nullifies spells of three bars or less. It is also difficult to damage Medusa with even high thaumaturgy and grand rituals.

Magical Resistance: B
A Skill that nullifies Magecraft spells that were invoked with a chant of three verses or below. It is difficult to damage BB who has this Rank of Magical Resistance with Magecraft, even if she was targeted by Great Magecrafts, Ritual Spells and the like.

Magic Resistance: B
Lower than original value due to the corruption. Still high, as it nullifies spells at B rank (activated within three counts) or lower, and it is difficult to harm her even with high thaumaturgy.

Rank A: No modern magecraft is able to affect this rank, only things from the age of the gods can hope to affect it.

Magic Resistance: A
Artoria boasts the greatest rank of resistance to magic among the Servants. She is capable of completely neutralizing high thaumaturgy involving magic circles and instant contracts. Even modern magi of the highest level cannot wound her directly with magic. Artoria is even able to resist a command of action powered by one use of a Command Spell. Such is the extraordinary rank of her Magic Resistance, sufficient to shake the very foundation of the Servant system.

Magical Resistance: A
A Skill that nullifies Magecraft spells that are Rank A or below.
Modern Mages would not be able to wound David with their Magecraft.

Magical Resistance: A
By the teachings he received from a sacred sage, all magic can be repelled by Rama. A Skill that cancels out all Magecraft spells that are at the Ranks of A and below. In fact, modern Mages would not be able to wound Rama with their Magecraft.

Rank EX: Distinction between spell ranks are meangless, except from powers directly from gods the rest of stuff get resisted.

Magic Resistance: EX
He completely nullifies most harmful magecraft effects.

Besides this basic layer stuff with servants and magic resistance people can also make arguments for layering o mystery, rank of mystic eyes (which should be straight forward with their ranks), authorities and other stuff, but again, I don't want to deal with that so if competent supporters feel the desire to argue for them then please go ahead, though I'm uncertain if they will do it as they don't tend to participate much in the wiki or care for this type of stuff.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

About nasuverse layers, I'm not gonna bother with the authority stuff since that's more complex and more tiresome, so others can have fun with that, but I can at least try to make an argument about normal resistance of servants.

Servants, by default, are Divine Mysteries, beings of immense mystery, something that grants them a great deal of resistance in general to stuff, however, among several servants exist a certain skill specific of certain classess or individuals, the Magic Resistance skill, this skill is divided among ranks:
Rank E: The lowest possible Magic Resistance, it go from reducing the effectiveness of spells to completely resist weak magic.


Rank D: The point at which Magic resistance become more significant, as spell of low rank get completely resisted, examples include Archer resisting spatial hax



An example of hax getting resisted by this Rank include Archer resisting Medea spatial hax.
Rank C: At this point one resist spells of medium level.


An example of hax getting resisted by this rank is Medusa petrification most of the time not working against those with MR Rank C, or Violet Crack Ice which need MR Rank C to get resisted.
Rank B: At this point people is basically immune to anything besides high thaumaturgy and grand rituals, and even those have problems affecting someone with this rank.



Rank A: No modern magecraft is able to affect this rank, only things from the age of the gods can hope to affect it.



Rank EX: Distinction between spell ranks are meangless, except from powers directly from gods the rest of stuff get resisted.


Besides this basic layer stuff with servants and magic resistance people can also make arguments for layering o mystery, rank of mystic eyes (which should be straight forward with their ranks), authorities and other stuff, but again, I don't want to deal with that so if competent supporters feel the desire to argue for them then please go ahead, though I'm uncertain if they will do it as they don't tend to participate much in the wiki or care for this type of stuff.

this was already explained + ninjad

 

[Robo432343]

Nurarihyon-No-Mago Layering Explanation

The fundamental battle which Yokai have against each other is the battle of "overpowering/seizing the other Yokai's fear" as without their opponent "fearing" them their abilities become completely ineffective and their innate resistances are easily bypass. So the action of gaining "layers" is...

vsbattles.fandom.com

this hax layer blog needs evaluation

someone keep an eye on this
the mf has 10 layers of haxes

 

[Theglassman12]

@Qawsedf234 Your input here would be appreciated.

 

[Brogeefrong]

Copy pasted what i got told for layered hax

• A single Power Ring can block out & negate the Iron Queen's Technology/Corruption/Mind hax
• However When the Iron Queen boosted her capabilities with 2 Power Rings, she could control Monkey Khan despite him wearing his Power Ring crown which should grant him protection, meaning that the potency of 2 Power Rings > Resistance granted by 1
• The exact amount of Power Rings needed to nearly overcome a Pre-Harmony Chaos Emerald is unknown but enough to cover the Death Egg
• Enerjak was brough forth by 11 Chaos Emeralds, then Master Mogul absorbs the energy of Enerjak + his own Chaos Emerald, gets Master Mogul to 12 Chaos Emerald then eventually 14 when he integrates a further 2 into himself, commenting how the limitless power of 14 Emerald would dwarf that of 12
• This is further boosted to an unfathomable level with the commencement of the Great Harmony where every Chaos Emerald in the universe was gathered, sealed into the Zone of Silence and eventually reshaped into an even greater set of seven by Feist, of which there were at bare minimum hundreds of thousands of them in the galaxy alone.

bump on this

 

[Theglassman12]

@Brogeefrong the power rings I can see some layers but the chaos emeralds stuff doesn’t really tell me much on layers.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Brogeefrong the power rings I can see some layers but the chaos emeralds stuff doesn’t really tell me much on layers.

The logic used is that you need a bunch of power rings just to overpower 1 chaos emerald

Which after the Great Harmony, 1 Chaos emerald is actually composed of an innumerable amount of them

 

[Theglassman12]

@LephyrTheRevanchist that sounds more like an AP feat than layers when it comes to affecting someone with a hax that they resist, unless there’s more context to it.

 

[Eseseso]

@LephyrTheRevanchist that sounds more like an AP feat than layers when it comes to affecting someone with a hax that they resist, unless there’s more context to it.

I mean (x+1) Chaos emeralds is stated to be >> (x) emeralds in chaos potency.

But what do you think about ring scaling?

 

[Bobsican]

@Bobsican nullifying cards isn't layered hax when the character that's getting nulled doesn't have established resistances towards these types of abilities, especially with 20+ levels. I want examples of characters getting hit with level 1 attacks only for them to be resisted, same with 2, 3, and so on and so forth, not nullified because of the mechanics of the card system because they're still affected by lower end cards at the end of the day.

They're only affected by lower cards if they aren't suppressed by higher cards, which by definition would fall as layer stuff, I'm not exactly sure what's your issue with using the card numbers when they're shown as directly working like that in relation to other cards, context matters and so on.
Unless you mean you'd want a scan of card of 1 being overriden by a card of 2 and so on, which I can get given the game has multiplayer, however.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Bobsican you need resistances for that to be considered layered hax to begin with, that’s the new standard. Being affected by the lower cards by default shows they lack resistances to these abilities.

@Eseseso the power rings stuff is fine

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Is there at least an example of higher card values being used to bypass resistances in the game?

 

[Bobsican]

You're focusing on whether the characters are affected or not, not of the cards themselves, which are even cited as empowering the user while attacking and defending, so it'd be inappropiate to only evaluate the characters in a vacuum given the context.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

You're focusing on whether the characters are affected or not, not of the cards themselves, which are even cited as empowering the user while attacking and defending, so it'd be inappropiate to only evaluate the characters in a vacuum given the context.

Bob, I don't think you're understanding what the new standards are. Layering is by definition overpowering resistance to an effect with greater potency. If a character in CoM can resist a card with a value of 1, but can't resist the same card with a value of 2, then you'd have a case, but I'm not seeing that here.

Truthfully, unless I'm missing something, I'm not seeing how the card system translates into hax potency at all. Seems like a somewhat generic "higher number goes first" system that you're extrapolating to be some sort of power null.

 

[Bobsican]

It seems I'll have to do a more direct analysis of the combat system with evidence, I'll get back in a while.