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Hax Layer Evaluation Thread

Bobsican said:
As brought up in the original thread, characters can resist this whole stuff even with the highest possible number regardless of cards, with the game even mentioning that, and the characters can be affected with the same sort of abilities in later games, thus upscaling further in layers (in retrospective it'd be 28 hax layers and just 27 resistance layers).

Click to expand...

So does End of Game Sora scale to the full number of layers?
 
WHYNAUT said:
Why do you do this to me?

It's actually paracausal power in general. Sword Logic is just the easiest example.

I'll get back to this at some later point.
How 'official' is this threat actually? I don't want to write a large post, justifying layers for nothing. No offense to Fujiwara.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah it’s official. Pretty much same thing like the type 5 acausal thread. Validity of any verse with hax layers is being determined here
 
SweetDao said:
Sure, multiplying it would give more potency. The resistance of one mage isn't layered, it's one singular value.

If a mage has 100 in resistance, she'll produce an output of 1000 and bind it.
If a mage has 1000 in resistance, she'll produce an output of 10000 and bind it.
Ad infinitum.
The second mage doesn't have 900 layers above the first one.

It's not her bypassing layers, it's her being always stronger than a singular value.
Click to expand...
I explained it on kingnanaya's wall, but the base output is already infinite in potency. But if the target somehow can resist it, she can add another layer ad infinitum
 
I would ask that everyone posting here for their verse summarize it as a single post with scans or a linked blog and/or accepted thread. There's lite reason to go back and forth so much on this and it makes staff evaluation quicker.
 
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
for infinite layers, i explained it here.
A single layer of authority would be superior to this.
Click to expand...
I'm not seeing how that's infinite layers. It just sounds like she has an infinite amount of whatever power that her eyes have that can bind an opponent and can overpower a nebulous resistance to it.

You'd need to prove that characters who resist it can have it be broken and repeat this ad nauseum. So far, this is at least 1 layer of resistance given she cab overcome someone who can resist it.

It goes without saying but an infinite amount of something, if even with the ability to overcome some layers isn't on its own infinite layers. It can be but it needs to be a lot more explicit.
 
Planck69 said:
I'm not seeing how that's infinite layers. It just sounds like she has an infinite amount of whatever power that her eyes have that can bind an opponent and can overpower a nebulous resistance to it.

You'd need to prove that characters who resist it can have it be broken and repeat this ad nauseum. So far, this is at least 1 layer of resistance given she cab overcome someone who can resist it.
Click to expand...
Her base potency is already infinite. the caveat is if an opponent tries to resist it, the infinite eyes grow another infinite amount of eyes each to restrain the opponent. in a vacuum where the opponent is endlessly able to adapt, the eyes would do this again and again
 
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
Her base potency is already infinite. the caveat is if an opponent tries to resist it, the infinite eyes grow another infinite amount of eyes each to restrain the opponent. in a vacuum where the opponent is endlessly able to adapt, the eyes would do this again and again
Click to expand...
Her base potency doesn't matter here since amount of power =/= layers (else several characters would have infinite layers). Layers are overcoming resistances, and from what I can see hers seem to be more so just pumping up enough juice to overcome an enemy's resistances once in those scans. It's likely far more than that single layer but Infinite would need some concrete proof of that beyond just name drops of infinite magic/eye power/whatever it is she has.
 
Don't deal with many verses with layered hax but uh there's some instances of it in Zelda that I'd like evaluated just to be sure they're legit. Nothing ridiculous like infinite layers (Thank god) but still worth noting.

ALTTP Link had Magic Powder can transmute people into slimes and monsters like Hinox are immune to it, but not to the effects of his Quake Medallions spell which should count as 2 layers. People like Ganon can resist the medallion so his resistance scales to those layers as well. The Triforce also has the same layers, it can turn Poes into Hyu's despite Poes also being immune to the Magic Powder, and ALTTP Link's resistance scales to these layers since he can resist the transmutation effects of the Triforce's magic.

I think Majora also has some layers for transmutation and mind manipulation, since OOT/MM Link can wander the Lost Woods just fine when normally the woods turn anyone who wanders it into stalfos but Majora still turns him into a Deku Scrub regardless. Link also has the Triforce of Courage when Majora transmutes him and that normally protects him from being turned into monsters (Although given what I can tell from our new standards on layers I don't think this means Link's innate resistance and the resistance of the Triforce of Courage count collectively as 2 layers). Majora also heavily screws with Link's mind in that same scene, and he can withstand putting on the FD Mask that forcibly floods his mind with the memories of everyone in Termina (Which is why he screams in pain), and his resistance to the lost woods turning him into a Stalfos also prevents him from becoming mindless since that's what most Stalfos are.

Ganondorf (The first one) has layered power null I think, Hyrule was being ravaged by disasters that were previously unstoppable to normal magic but Ganon used a form of magic never seen before and just nulled all of it in one fell swoop. There's also some potenial for Ganondorf (The current one) to have layered death hax but that's a discussion for another day (Kinks still need to be worked out for that one, life-force in Zelda is weird like that).
 
Planck69 said:
Her base potency doesn't matter here since amount of power =/= layers (else several characters would have infinite layers). Layers are overcoming resistances, and from what I can see hers seem to be more so just pumping up enough juice to overcome an enemy's resistances once in those scans. It's likely far more than that single layer but Infinite would need some concrete proof of that beyond just name drops of infinite magic/eye power/whatever it is she has.
Click to expand...
magic resistance in nasu is layered, the magic resistance page gives good examples.
https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Magic_Resistance.

tdlr, people with magic reistance can nullify magecraft with a rank at or below their resist level. Touko trivializes resistance all together, restraining the opponent regardless. Amount of ME mostly direcly relates to magic resistance rank
 
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
magic resistance in nasu is layered, the magic resistance page gives good examples.
https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Magic_Resistance.

tdlr, people with magic reistance can nullify magecraft with a rank at or below their resist level. Touko trivializes resistance all together, restraining the opponent regardless.
Click to expand...
Touko has Resistance Negation then, because we don't extrapolate resistance layers like that. And I suppose those on that resistance scale can get layers for each part possibly.
 
@BasedNecoScaler69 yeah still not seeing infinite layers for that tbh, at best it's just one layer.

@Dust_Collector Hinox being immune to the magic powder is baseline resistance, Ganondorf resisting the quake medallion which affected the Hinox is 1 layer of resistance, same with Link resisting the dark world transmutation as Link would have one layer of resistance where the poes have baseline resistance.

Majora would have 1 layer of hax with that yeah. Not really sure the triforce would help with layers unless TP link has any baseline resistances without the triforce. In regards to Majora's mind screwery it can count as a layer yeah. Not sure about ganondorf stopping the disasters since it seemed more of a "it's too much for Hyrule to handle" more than just it being resisting abilities.
 
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
magic resistance in nasu is layered, the magic resistance page gives good examples.
https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Magic_Resistance.

tdlr, people with magic reistance can nullify magecraft with a rank at or below their resist level. Touko trivializes resistance all together, restraining the opponent regardless. Amount of ME mostly direcly relates to magic resistance rank
Click to expand...
This seems at best one layer per level.

So 10 layers at most.
 
Last edited:
Planck69 said:
Touko has Resistance Negation then, because we don't extrapolate resistance layers like that. And I suppose those on that resistance scale can get layers for each part possibly.
Click to expand...
Resistance Negation is the ability to remove an opponent's ability to resist certain effects, allowing the user to then affect them with those abilities. In extreme cases, this ability can even override apparent immunity. Simply overwhelming with hax stronger than what they can resist normally doesn't qualify.
Click to expand...
She doesnt exactly remove anything, her eyes just overcome the resistance.
extrapolation seems fair, given her abilities are stated to have no end point. but if im outvoted here, then whatever
 
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
She doesnt exactly remove anything, her eyes just overcome the resistance.
extrapolation seems fair, given her abilities are stated to have no end point. but if im outvoted here, then whatever
Click to expand...
Layer this Nasu-simp.


Actually am curious as to how many layers The Masdaverse should have.
7307382-2736985271-latest
 
@Planck69 the scan for persephone sending Kratos' mind to another realm isn't there btw, if that's further verified I can see 5 layers of resistance to soul hax stuff for God of War.

In regards to ergenverse I'm somewhat lost, a good chunk of the scans look more like UES stuff and the whole "I couldn't break the seal before but now I can" can argue for layers but that's the most I'm seeing with layers unless there's more I'm missing.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Bobsican is that applied to every single layer because one clip of a resist move wouldn’t really justify all 27+ resistances. You’re gonna need a lot more evidence to prove the 28 layers would still work.
Click to expand...
Can you be more specific on what kind of evidence you'd want please? I can get videos of the hax working on the respective characters in later games that resisted that as said before, if that's what you mean.
 
@Bobsican for each of those abilities, you'd need evidence that there's an actual showing of resistances towards said ability rather than a game mechanic of cards stopping another card since they're still affected by the ability at the end of the day.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Planck69 the scan for persephone sending Kratos' mind to another realm isn't there btw, if that's further verified I can see 5 layers of resistance to soul hax stuff for God of War.
Click to expand...
Hm, dunno why it's missing but I'll add it. Also, only 5? As I'm aware, it's around 8 or so.
Theglassman12 said:
In regards to ergenverse I'm somewhat lost, a good chunk of the scans look more like UES stuff and the whole "I couldn't break the seal before but now I can" can argue for layers but that's the most I'm seeing with layers unless there's more I'm missing.
Click to expand...
Every time they break through to a higher realm, they get innate powers associated with it and resist the powers of a lower realm (hence why it's presented as raw cultivation generally and not specifically "mind control"/"soul destruction" etc). Examples include the power nullification with Bai, the sealing stuff and the passive soul destruction of lower cultivators that equal beings resist. That's the core of the layers part. Do you need more scans for it or just a better explanation?
 
More scans that shows that the characters were able to gain resistances to said abilities, and the higher ones can affect those with said abilities, granted depending on how this is treated knowing Ergenverse reaches 1-A, idk how much of this would be layers as opposed to something like "realm 1 is 3-D, realm 2 is 4-D, realm 5 is 100-D, and realm 6 is 1-A" so that might be a problem unless explained otherwise.
 
Theglassman12 said:
More scans that shows that the characters were able to gain resistances to said abilities, and the higher ones can affect those with said abilities, granted depending on how this is treated knowing Ergenverse reaches 1-A, idk how much of this would be layers as opposed to something like "realm 1 is 3-D, realm 2 is 4-D, realm 5 is 100-D, and realm 6 is 1-A" so that might be a problem unless explained otherwise.
Click to expand...
Does the aura scan above not suffice? Where a Deva can crush Nascent Soul cultivators who already resist soul hax (the powers are on the Cultivation (Er Gen) page). Or the Ji Realm, which freezes and nukes souls but is useless on cultivators of a higher realm.

Every single layer above is 3-D (From Qi Condensation to Archean). The 4-D stuff starts at 2-C and I treat that as starting the layers from scratch. They don't carry over dimensionally.
 
I understand the appeal of trying to do this in one thread with the new standard change, but I can't help but think it would be better to just break out into individual threads for verses where there is significant disagreement and just use this to streamline the process for relatively straightforward verses.
 
Eseseso said:
So does End of Game Sora scale to the full number of layers?
Click to expand...
Well, any kind of card number can be obtained for any card early-game with sufficient grinding/luck, so it'd just apply to all of CoM onwards for simplicity's sake, it'd be quite a bad idea to be doing several sections within a key for small stuff that gets obtained as each game progresses for the sake of readability and research, several game verses also just index characters by late-game per game unless there's notable differences between one point and another.

Theglassman12 said:
@Bobsican for each of those abilities, you'd need evidence that there's an actual showing of resistances towards said ability rather than a game mechanic of cards stopping another card since they're still affected by the ability at the end of the day.
Click to expand...
We already went on that not being a game mechanic, please do me a favor and read the OP of that thread as it seems you may have forgotten some of the premises that were brought up over there.

https://www.khinsider.com/news/A-Look-Back-CoM-Ultimania-System-Team-Graphic-Team-Interview-15757

Kanemori: It was difficult to adjust the balance between the card ls and the action. Put too much emphasis on handling the cards, and Sora's just standing there saying lines. But then put too much emphasis on moving Sora, and you start wondering why you even need the cards. We basically covered the borderline parts by making sure there were a wide range of card effects.
Click to expand...

The cards are brought up as ruling Castle Oblivion, with the whole stuff about Card Breaks and an higher number having higher priority than the lower one being brought up too, creating rooms and making worlds within it.

Otherwise please tell me how can all of the above be dismissed as a game mechanic when it's one of those cases where it's made a constant plot point the characters have to deal with.
 
@Planck69 So going off of this statement you have here.

Moments later, his eyes were gleaming with excitement. The bamboo scroll had three pictures, and accompanying text that described how cultivation was divided into two stages of Qi Condensation and Foundation Establishment. As far as the Violet Qi Cauldron Control Art, it was divided into ten levels, each of which corresponded to the ten levels of Qi Condensation.By practicing cultivation to a given level, it was possible to exercise control over physical objects. After reaching the third level, you could control half of a small cauldron. At the sixth level, it became half of a large cauldron. At the ninth level, it was a full cauldron. As for the final full circle, you could actually control two full cauldrons.
Click to expand...

I'm going to assume that this is to argue layers for each realm if I understand the Ergenverse scaling. If it's more explicit on how the higher levels results in them being able to affect the lower realms with established resistances then I can kinda see the layers being legit, especially if they're in the same dimensional plane.

@Bobsican That doesn't refute my point that there's no established hierarchy of resistances for the card users so again, provide evidence that they have resistances on all levels and it not just being a one time showing for a boss character.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Planck69 So going off of this statement you have here.

I'm going to assume that this is to argue layers for each realm if I understand the Ergenverse scaling. If it's more explicit on how the higher levels results in them being able to affect the lower realms with established resistances then I can kinda see the layers being legit, especially if they're in the same dimensional plane.
Click to expand...
Yep. Each realm has 10 levels at minimum and as shown in my first post, resist each other and can negate the resistances and hax of lower levels. And this if for the same dimensional level up until the 3rd Step, which has its realms and thus layers, of 4-D hax.

I am to assume I can add this to the OP, as with God of War?
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Bobsican That doesn't refute my point that there's no established hierarchy of resistances for the card users so again, provide evidence that they have resistances on all levels and it not just being a one time showing for a boss character.
Click to expand...
It's made explicitly clear that there's a hierarchy of an higher number nullifying a lower-numbered (set of) cards, there's no need to use an specific term like "hierarchy" for the overall description of the context falling there. Please tell me some examples of what kind of supporting stuff you'd want if you still fell unsatisfied.
 
@Planck69 go right ahead, might as well update the OP.

@Bobsican nullifying cards isn't layered hax when the character that's getting nulled doesn't have established resistances towards these types of abilities, especially with 20+ levels. I want examples of characters getting hit with level 1 attacks only for them to be resisted, same with 2, 3, and so on and so forth, not nullified because of the mechanics of the card system because they're still affected by lower end cards at the end of the day.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Planck69 go right ahead, might as well update the OP.
Click to expand...
I put Nasuverse at "Will Lose Layers" and pointed out the new layers are to-be-evaluated if that's OK.
Theglassman12 said:
@Bobsican nullifying cards isn't layered hax when the character that's getting nulled doesn't have established resistances towards these types of abilities, especially with 20+ levels. I want examples of characters getting hit with level 1 attacks only for them to be resisted, same with 2, 3, and so on and so forth, not nullified because of the mechanics of the card system because they're still affected by lower end cards at the end of the day.
Click to expand...
Second this. There'd need to be a feat of a character resisting level 1 attacks then getting affected by level 2 attacks which are then resisted and only then can it be extrapolated that it works this way for the other cards (even then it'd be 9 layers with 0 card being Resistance Negation), at most.
 
Planck69 said:
So aside from the infinite layers, there weren't any others to evaluate? What about the Authority stuff?
Click to expand...
Authority is a seperate type of hax from the main layers.

Authority [Miracle]
Kennou. Authorities are special abilities that fall into a different category than Codecasts, Skills, and Noble Phantasms.
An Authority is a power that is on the level of creating a world, and includes things like altering events, time-flow manipulation, and kingdom building.
Authorities existed in the age known as the Age of Gods, which was about 6000 years ago, but after entering the Common Era human civilization advanced to the point where Authorities were no longer needed, and so Authorities became a relic of the past.
Normal skills achieve a certain result based on some logical process or principle, but Authorities realize a result simply because the user has the right to do so.
A God Spirit Class Servant should naturally possess Authorities, but to use them in the modern age requires a corresponding compensation to be paid (involving strain/damage inflicted on the user).
In CCC the one who swallowed up Moon Cell has reached a level of power that is Authority class.
Click to expand...

If you have a higher authority, you can resist whatever the lower authority character throws at you regardless of potency or layering, and can also pierce through any resistances they might have
  • "She was still ultimately doomed once the Holy Grail War would be completed and everything besides the winner was to be deleted, so Karna gave her his armor to allow her to return to the real world due to the nature of the sun overwhelming that of the moon" (talk about Karma armor resisting Moon cell)

  • "Even if both Quetzalcoatl and Ishtar had their full-powered authorities and the help of any other powers left in Mesopotamia they wouldn't be able to damage Tiamat."

  • "Quetzalcoatl boasts a large Magical Energy signal and after having witnessed her levels of Divinity, Jaguar Man seems to be nothing more than a paper tiger in comparison, she is stated multiple times to be the strongest member of the three goddess alliance, far surpassing Ishtar who had manifested as a Pseudo-Servant and Gorgon."

  • "Merlin claims they wouldn't stand a chance against her without another servant with at least the same level of divinity. However, because she belongs to the lower grade among the Divine Spirit Servants" (for jaguar man).

  • "God Arjuna had obtained an immeasurable amount of divinity and divine authority over the entirety of the Indian Lostbelt. His power was so immense that even Rama's Noble Phantasm posseded little to no effect on him and he easily brushed off its destructive power as seemingly only being "annoying". (Rama have authority).

  • "Also, his Authority prevents the Moon Cell from deleting him because his Authority eclipses its own."(Saver)
Click to expand...
 
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
Authority is a seperate type of hax from the main layers.

If you have a higher authority, you can resist whatever the lower authority character throws at you regardless of potency or layering, and can also pierce through any resistances they might have
Click to expand...
"Regardless of potency and layering" is a bit of a reach, for what ultimately amounts to confirmation of Authority granting better hax and resistances but no confirmation that each singular difference is a layer.

Honestly, to all other Nasu supporters, it'd be easier if you just compiled your stuff into a coherent post.
 
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