Hax Layer Evaluation Thread

[Bobsican]

At this point I'll make a CRT as this is going for long and there's still some more obscure stuff for me to dig into.

 

[Theglassman12]

If you’re going to make a CRT making the exact same points then it’s really redundant as hell when we’ve already discussed it in the evaluation thread here.

 

[Bobsican]

As said before I'll be adding more stuff that wasn't brought up before, don't worry on that.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

The fall of the soraverse

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

@Theglassman12 @Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara Does this qualify for infinite layers hax?

In Sage Monarch/Dragon Talisman, cultivation base/Realm is the level that represents the resistance and resistance penetration of abilities. For example, Yang Qi's Reality Warping/Fate manipulation named Wheel of Fate/Tidings of the Lord (which can be applied as Death manipulation, Explosion manipulation, Power nullification, Power modification, Absorption, Gravity Manipulation/Black Hole creation, Law manipulation, Conceptual manipulation, Subjective Reality, Damage transferal/Life manipulation, Probability manipulation, Paralysis Inducement, Spatial manipulation, Transmutation, Pain manipulation, Animal manipulation, chaos/void manipulation [passive EE Space, time, Fate, Cause and Effect/Karma and melt you into Chaos], Mind Manipulation, Illusion creation, Heat Manipulation, BRF... Basically all kinds of abilities/any number of things) initially cannot affect Sixth-Stage Demolishers because his cultivation level is too low and not enough and so he still has to reach a higher level of cultivation aka Demolisher to fate hax on them. And the higher the realm and cultivation base, the more layered they are given





Will Convergence introduces how even Small Ladders of Deathless/Immortality can increase their realm and cultivation to infinity because the more concentrated their will, the higher their realm. The pinnacle of Immortality Ladders is the Great Emperor, and thus they have infinite layers (For Yang Qi (First key))


For His second key, Destiny (氣運) is proportional to the level of cultivation, the more/higher it is, the stronger the cultivation will be. Basically if an empire expands its empire to the level of God Realm, their cultivation base/destiny will be enhanced infinitely. Basically infinite layers and Yang Qi do this via His Sage Monarch Empire

I don't believe so, no. This seems like another instance of increasing hax potency infinitely being conflated with infinite layers.

As said before I'll be adding more stuff that wasn't brought up before, don't worry on that.

why didn't you do that from the start
I don't mind if a new thread is made so long as it actually covers everything this time.

Also, has anyone posted an explanation for Destiny's layers yet? I'd rather not evaluate it based on what I was told on the top 10 strongest thread months ago.

 

[Theglassman12]

Whynaut said he might make an explanation post for it.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Might as well try this.

Sabrina Spellman is capable of nulling magic. However, she is unable to reverse the spell of an arguably stronger/chaotic witch. By The Magic Within after she unintentionally gets a magic upgrade, she can nullify a magic ward that "not just anyone" could break (statement was made by one of the strongest wizards in the verse, who should be substantially superior to the little kid). After she attains the Destruction Wand, she can bypass magical barriers that nullify magic her own base magic is not able to overcome. Not sure how many layers this is though -

 

[Theglassman12]

@DimeUhDozen those scans look more like baseline resistances than anything, not really layered hax since it doesn’t show the characters being affected with a hax they resisted already.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Sorry I’m dumb

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Might as well try this.

Sabrina Spellman is capable of nulling magic. However, she is unable to reverse the spell of an arguably stronger/chaotic witch. By The Magic Within after she unintentionally gets a magic upgrade, she can nullify a magic ward that "not just anyone" could break (statement was made by one of the strongest wizards in the verse, who should be substantially superior to the little kid). After she attains the Destruction Wand, she can bypass magical barriers that nullify magic her own base magic is not able to overcome. Not sure how many layers this is though -

I see 1 layer with the last part

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

After she attains the Destruction Wand, she can bypass magical barriers that nullify magic her own base magic is not able to overcome. Not sure how many layers this is though -

This is the only part I think would qualify as a layer.

 

[Rabbit2002]

I don't believe so, no. This seems like another instance of increasing hax potency infinitely being conflated with infinite layers.

@Rabbit2002 a power infinitely increasing wouldn’t help for layers, it would need some feats of affecting practically an infinite number of folks with said resistances as well as channel that power into a specific individual to increase in potency for you to get infinite layers.

Yeah that exists in Sage Monarch/Dragon Talisman, I originally thought it wasn't enough so I didn't include it. There are basically two things: The more condensed the laws and abilities, the stronger they are and the more they penetrate resistance. In addition, cultivation base is not only hax potency, it is also the potency of resistance. As the quote said, because the cultivation base of Yang Qi's nascent divinity (soul) did not grow fast enough to keep up with the cultivation base of the Sea of Consciousness and his body, his soul suffered the same effect like someone with a low cultivation base who goes to Immortal Worlds

That's why they often shrink the scope of their source (e.g. Immortal worlds) to make the law stronger and denser/closer, this process is also proportional to the aforementioned Will Coverengce. The higher the Cultivation base, the more resistant to their effects, such as A Legendary will be Death haxed, but a higher Great Sage will not be, but will only be paralyzed and neutralize their powers, With a Demi Immortal or Demonlisher they will completely fine and can freely express his strength and live like normal people. However, if they set foot in higher-level Immortal Worlds, where the laws are stronger and denser, they will suffer the same effect, and only Godmyth (who is higher than Demonlisher) is not affected by Hundredth ranked Immortal Worlds's passively Death hax.

At the same time, he focused his thoughts on his nascent divinity in his sea of consciousness. As he did, he sensed that there were transformations occurring to the magical laws in his sea of consciousness.
It was similar to how, when mortal worlds transformed into immortal worlds, the magical laws would become stronger and denser. Those were the same kind of restrictions that seemed to have locked onto his nascent divinity.
In the mortal world, Great Sages could pierce through space, traveling from one planetary system to another. An example of that was how Yang Qi had traveled from the Rich-Lush Continent to the Quake-Dawn Continent.
However, if a Great Sage went to an immortal world, even the lowest level like the first ranked Titan Emperor Heaven, they would hardly be able to move. Forget flying, they would actually have difficulty breathing.
That was because of the restrictions binding the world itself.
Similarly, Demolishers who went to a thirty-third ranked immortal world would also be unable to fly. And in hundredth ranked immortal worlds, only Godmyths could deal with the magical laws there without being killed. And an ordinary Grand Emperor who entered the Cave Temple of the Vajra Māyādevī would be killed.
That was what Yang Qi was experiencing right now. Although his will convergence had improved dramatically, the progress had been too quick. For example, if a Legendary from the Rich-Lush Continent were to suddenly go to an immortal world, not only would that incredible leap upward not help them, it would likely lead to their death.
Right now, Yang Qi's sea of consciousness was growing stronger, and its magical laws tougher, but his nascent divinity wasn't able to keep up! > Thankfully, he wasn't completely out of options. For now, he would simply stop furthering the cultivation of his fleshly body and focus on his nascent divinity. - Chapter 994

Drastic changes were occurring to the Heaven Beyond Heaven. Its primal-chaos vital energy was shrinking, and every aspect of it was growing smaller. Cracking sounds rang out as the greyspace became smaller and the magical laws knitted more closely together.
Before long, it had shrunk down to roughly one-tenth of its previous size. Of course, because of shrinkage, the effects of the magical laws and vital energy were ten times as strong. Before, a high-level Chaos God might have been able to enter, but now it would be impossible.
Not even the six surviving adherents of Eldest Brother Secundus would be able to get back inside, even if they possessed pieces of the god psalter.
'Excellent. As I refine this temple, I gain more and more control over the vital energy of the Heaven Beyond Heaven. Once I get the final two pieces of the psalter, the gate of the temple will open.' Chapter 794

To be more specific about this process: Ten times condensation can powernull Godmyth, Yang Qi demonstrated infinite times condensation when he made Heavens Beyond Heavens aka much greater infinite recursion of infinite worlds within worlds into something finite and unaffected by its effects

Spoiler

2-A Justification​

At the very least, they are able to perform such 2-A feats:

Is this the strength of the mythical realm? There are wonderful flowers in the void. Each flower is different. There are infinite worlds in the flowers. There are worlds within worlds, the cycle continues endlessly...
The blossoming void rune flowers give birth to one world after another in the depths. Worlds including worlds, endlessly, which is not something ordinary immortal flowers can compare to. - Chapter 630

这就是神话境界的实力么？虚空生妙花，朵朵不相同，花中无穷界，界中再有界，反反复复无穷尽………”

那一朵朵的虚空符文花朵，深处诞生了一个又一个的世界，世界连接世界，无穷无尽，这就根本不是一般的仙花能够比拟得出来。- Chapter 630

Regarding Scaling, this feat was accomplished by a random mythical realm from the fifth ranked Immortal Realm (named Brahman Immortal World)
The Immortal Worlds are hierarchical. The higher the rank of Immortal Worlds, the stronger the laws will be and suppress the power of anyone who is not strong enough or resistant (effect will vary depending on the strength of the laws, you can lose most powers or die).

At the same time, he focused his thoughts on his nascent divinity in his sea of consciousness. As he did, he sensed that there were transformations occurring to the magical laws in his sea of consciousness.

It was similar to how, when mortal worlds transformed into immortal worlds, the magical laws would become stronger and denser. Those were the same kind of restrictions that seemed to have locked onto his nascent divinity.

In the mortal world, Great Sages could pierce through space, traveling from one planetary system to another. An example of that was how Yang Qi had traveled from the Rich-Lush Continent to the Quake-Dawn Continent.

However, if a Great Sage went to an immortal world, even the lowest level like the first ranked Titan Emperor Heaven, they would hardly be able to move. Forget flying, they would actually have difficulty breathing.

That was because of the restrictions binding the world itself.

Similarly, Demolishers who went to a thirty-third ranked immortal world would also be unable to fly. And in hundredth ranked immortal worlds, only Godmyths could deal with the magical laws there without being killed. And an ordinary Grand Emperor who entered the Cave Temple of the Vajra Māyādevī would be killed.

That was what Yang Qi was experiencing right now. Although his will convergence had improved dramatically, the progress had been too quick. For example, if a Legendary from the Rich-Lush Continent were to suddenly go to an immortal world, not only would that incredible leap upward not help them, it would likely lead to their death.

Right now, Yang Qi's sea of consciousness was growing stronger, and its magical laws tougher, but his nascent divinity wasn't able to keep up! Thankfully, he wasn't completely out of options. For now, he would simply stop furthering the cultivation of his fleshly body and focus on his nascent divinity. - Chapter 994

The Immortal Worlds also have a size hierarchy based on these ranks, a thirty-third ranked Immortal World would be so large that ten octillions tenth ranked Immortal worlds (MC's immortal world/Sage Monarch Heaven) are incomparable and twentieth ranked Immortal Worlds were like grains of sand compared to the ocean itself:

一個三十三等級的仙界，到底有多大的作用？
只怕是直逼神界。
一旦得到了，楊奇的聖王仙界，所有弟子都會得到千百萬億倍的發展，人人晉陞神話境界，甚至自己衝擊不朽王座，都不成問題。
一個三十三等級的仙界，資源有多大？
就算是現在聖王仙界，一千萬億個，一億億兆都根本不能夠比擬，三十三天仙界的能量，直追神界，到達其中，楊奇真正掌握了其中本源的話，甚至可以把 文明之碟的碎片直接布滿，那個時候，斬殺葉少，簡直是輕而易舉的事情。- Chapter 712

How useful is a 33-level immortal world?
I'm afraid it's going straight to the God Realm.
Once obtained, all disciples of Yang Qi's Saint King Immortal Realm will be developed by tens of millions of billions of times, and everyone will be promoted to the mythical realm, and it will not be a problem for everyone to even hit the immortal throne.
How big are the resources in a 33-level fairy world?

Even now in the Saint King Immortal Realm, one quadrillion times, ten octillions are simply not comparable (一億億兆 = ten octillions, 億 is hundred million and 兆 is trillion. So It literally means Hundred million times hundred miilion times trillion) - Chapter 712

After all, compared to places like the Tusita Heaven, twentieth ranked immortal worlds were like grains of sand compared to the ocean itself. - Chapter 733

'It's too bad I'm not even close to being in a position to deal with these people. I need to keep out of their way for now, and think of a way to take advantage of them later. The Myriad Worlds Monarch Chart is so huge that it would take me decades to clear it out and search it. They're getting closer and closer to me, though. Soon, they're going to notice my immortal world. After all, it's nearly at the tenth rank. Worst case scenario, I guess I can just seal it up and take it somewhere else.' - Chapter 679

Heaven Beyond Heaven (thirty-third ranked Immortal World) is composed of the laws of the universe, even tsunamis or oceans are not water but the laws of the universe and volcanic eruptions are also eruptions of laws, each drop of "water" in its ocean can corrode and kill the fifth or sixth division of Godmyth.
In terms of size, it is so vast that Yang Qi could not fully explore it (his fodder self from more than one hundred and sixty chapters ago was able to explore the entire 2-A structures of Godmyth without any problems)

Did the Aeonic God Psalter really come from the Heaven Beyond Heaven?' Yang Qi thought as he continued to absorb the essence and learn about the vital energy of the world around him. Following the directions on the map, he headed to a location where a boundless sea spread out in all directions, covered with rolling waves and a blanket of water vapor. Far out in that sea was an island with an immense temple on it, just barely visible to Yang Qi. Chapter 790

Is this really seawater?'
He reached out and scooped up some of the water, only to find that it was made of pure primal-chaos quintessence vitality. A single drop would ordinarily be enough to melt the flesh of a sixth division cultivator. And even the water vapor would be enough to kill such Godmyths. Chapter 791

Thankfully, the five pieces he did have were giving him access to power, as well as secrets of the temple that would help him to improve his cultivation base and gain a greater control of the Heaven Beyond Heaven.
This immortal world was so immense that not even Yang Qi could fully probe its depths. But he was currently at its core, and if he could seize this temple, he would have access to even greater amounts of the vital energy of the place.

SNICK!

He exhaled, sending out a stream of true energy that glowed with godlight as it swept around the temple. 'Maybe Chancellor Demi-Immortal's destiny will be of some help here.' chapter 794

Of-course size and laws will be inversely proportional to each other. An example is when MC reached a power index of 220, he shrunk his Alliance (made up of hundreds of trillions of Immortal Worlds, as large as ten million of thirty-third ranked Immortal Worlds) by ten times, the laws became so strong that even the Mythical realms can't fly and lose most of their abilities

不一會兒，護道聯盟百兆仙界的邊緣，許多地方都在縮小，向內壓縮，空間堅固緊密得好像鋼鐵一般，一般的仙人都無法飛行了。
從混沌之中就這麽看下去，整個護道聯盟，好像一個巨大的星河漩渦，百兆仙界在向內凝固，聚集，瞬息之間，縮小了十倍，不過仍舊是十分龐大，乃至於整個空間 都發生了一種根本性的變化。
波濤洶湧，遠遠的散發了出去，好像一尊太古巨神，在把護道聯盟縮小。
護道聯盟的邊緣，許多空間斷裂，宇宙都顯現了出來，其中強烈的宇宙風暴席卷了許多仙界時空，不知道造成了多大的波動。
“盟主，您這是要幹什麽？”青史老祖等人看見這樣的情況，大吃一驚：“這樣凝練我們整個護道聯盟百兆仙界，固然能夠使得法則更加緊密，但是普通的仙人因為法則的凝固 ，恐怕會失去大部分的神通啊。”
護道聯盟百兆仙界，被楊奇縮小，凝練，空間和空間相互之間，折疊壓縮，使得整個世界的品質都提升了，一些仙人原本可以施展出來空間穿梭，但是在護道聯盟之中都 無法施展出來。
甚至神話境界初期的高手想要穿梭空間，都變得已經不可能，隻有神話境界到達極高的境界，才可以勉強的破開空間進行飛行，但是行動能力已經大大減弱。
比如，在大海之中，魚兒可以自由穿梭，但是大海之中的海水，突然一下全部變成了水銀，那根本就不能夠生存。
“現在整個古墓之中，有大的變化，很有可能其中通神古路的高手會出來，對我們進行壓迫，或者是逼迫我們降服，到時候要開戰，我現在傾盡全力，壓縮護 道聯盟的空間，就是為了在最關鍵的時候，把整個護道聯盟帶入萬界王圖之中。”
楊奇道。- Chapter 861

After a while, many places on the edge of the Dao Protector Alliance's hundred trillion fairyland were shrinking and compressed inward. The space was as solid and tight as steel, and ordinary immortals could no longer fly.
From the perspective of the chaos, the entire Dao Guardian Alliance is like a huge galaxy vortex. Hundreds of trillions of fairyland are solidifying inward, gathering, and shrinking ten times in an instant, but it is still very huge, and even the entire space A fundamental change has taken place.
The waves are turbulent, spreading far away, like a giant ancient god, shrinking the Dao Guardian Alliance.
On the edge of the Dao Guardian Alliance, many space breaks, and the universe is revealed. Among them, a strong cosmic storm has swept through many time and space in the fairy world, and it is unknown how much fluctuation it caused.
"Leader, what are you going to do?" Qingshi Patriarch and the others were taken aback when they saw this situation: "Condensing our entire Daoist Alliance's Baizhaoxianjie in this way can certainly make the laws closer, but ordinary immortals can't do anything because of the solidification of the laws. I’m afraid I’ll lose most of my supernatural powers.”
The Dao Guardian Alliance's Hundred Mega Immortal Realm was shrunk and condensed by Yang Qi. Space and space were folded and compressed, which improved the quality of the entire world. Unable to display it.
Even the masters in the early days of the mythical realm have become impossible to travel through space. Only when the mythical realm reaches an extremely high level can they barely break through the space and fly, but their mobility has been greatly weakened.
For example, in the ocean, fish can swim freely, but the sea water in the ocean suddenly turns into mercury, so they cannot survive at all.

"Now there are big changes in the entire ancient tomb. It is very likely that the masters of the ancient road to the gods will come out to oppress us, or force us to surrender. When the time comes, we will go to war. I will do my best to compress the protection. The space of the Dao Alliance is to bring the entire Dao Guardian Alliance into the map of the kings of the world at the most critical time." Yang Qi said. - Chapter 861

Months flew by. Countless immortals reached the Godmyth level, and too many geniuses rose up to count. In the Tusita Heaven, the Live Forever God Tree had been considered something huge, but compared to the Dao Defense League, it was small, and hardly made a dent in the destiny of the league as a whole.

How large was the Dao Defense League now?

At the very least, it was the same size as a million of the old Tusita Heaven.

Yang Qi continued combining the immortal worlds in the alliance. The process was helped by the planes and greyspaces he sent down from the Great Necropolis. Eventually, the middle-ranked immortal worlds were disappearing and being replaced with high-level worlds. By this point, there were only about ten billion immortal worlds in the league, but all of them were incredibly powerful.

Looking down from a high altitude, it can be seen that the tens of billions of fairy worlds in the entire Daoist Alliance have transformed into a huge formation. This formation is somewhat similar to an animal, It presents a three-dimensional state, suspended in various multiverses, and will burst out with extremely powerful energy at any time

Specifically, a mammoth, and even more specifically, a godmammoth.

Because of his Strength of the Hell-Crushing Godmammoth, Yang Qi was very familiar with the internal structure of godmammoths. It was the most perfect structure possible, even within the god world, and contained profound secrets that even top experts couldn't begin to unravel.

With the league in the structure of a godmammoth, it was possible for Yang Qi to have all the living beings within it unite their breathing and converge their destinies. That, in turn, would help his breathing exercises, allowing him to absorb power at a much higher rate. - Chapter 862

Drastic changes were occurring to the Heaven Beyond Heaven. Its primal-chaos vital energy was shrinking, and every aspect of it was growing smaller. Cracking sounds rang out as the greyspace became smaller and the magical laws knitted more closely together.
Before long, it had shrunk down to roughly one-tenth of its previous size. Of course, because of shrinkage, the effects of the magical laws and vital energy were ten times as strong. Before, a high-level Chaos God might have been able to enter, but now it would be impossible.
Not even the six surviving adherents of Eldest Brother Secundus would be able to get back inside, even if they possessed pieces of the god psalter.

'Excellent. As I refine this temple, I gain more and more control over the vital energy of the Heaven Beyond Heaven. Once I get the final two pieces of the psalter, the gate of the temple will open.' Chapter 794

Alright! Take control of the Heaven Beyond Heaven! The mountains, the rivers, the vegetation, the earth, the primal-chaos paleo-beasts, the seas, the skies …. 'Yang Qi's divine will swept out like a tempest, sweeping through all lands.

As he drew on the Aeon Portal, the Heaven Beyond Heaven began to shrink down in primal-chaos. It shrank down into the primal-chaos paleo-energy.

In the blink of an eye, it was millions upon millions of times smaller.

A few hours later, the Heaven Beyond Heaven was gone. A thirty-third ranked immortal world had vanished without a trace. It was almost as if it had vanished like a mirage.

Meanwhile, within the primal-chaos paleo-energy, Yang Qi had the Aeon God Battleship hovering above his head. It was only the size of a hand, and then he let out a shout.

Screech!

The Aeon God Battleship flew into his forehead, and the golden imp with the God Legion Seal could be seen sitting on the deck of the battleship, pulsing with immense power that filled Yang Qi at all times.

In the moment that the Heaven Beyond Heaven had become the Aeon God Battleship, Yang Qi had reached the peak of the seventh division Measureless God level, and was on the verge of becoming an eighth division Buddha God. Chapter 803

The same chapter where he performed that feat also said that the Great Emperor's cultivation level was basically too high for him, and these Great Emperors were still haxed to death in Cave Temple of the Vajra Māyādevī although Temple has weaker magical laws (layered/potency) than Three-hundredth Immortal Worlds

Not even Grand Emperor Ragefire Broilheaven could match up to Yang Qi in psychic power. That said, the fact that his cultivation level was so high meant that Yang Qi would have to either reach the Chaos God level or climb the Deathless Heavenly Stairway to wipe out the Four Emperors of the Heavenly Court, Eldest Brother Secundus, the Eight Tribes, and the generalissimo of the future world. Then he would be blessed by the dao of heaven, and would be able to rise to the position of the legion of gods. Chapter 803

Similarly, Demolishers who went to a thirty-third ranked immortal world would also be unable to fly. And in hundredth ranked immortal worlds, only Godmyths could deal with the magical laws there without being killed. And an ordinary Grand Emperor who entered the Cave Temple of the Vajra Māyādevī would be killed Chapter 993

Eventually, Yang Qi was led deeper and deeper into the Great Necropolis by the junior superintendent and the other executors. The passageways grew wider and wider, and the immortal worlds grew larger and larger. At first, there were immortal worlds in the hundredth rank. But after a few hours of flying, the hundredth ranked immortal worlds vanished, to be replaced by those in the two-hundredth rank. After a few more days, the three-hundredth ranked immortal worlds appeared.
At the same time, the magical laws in the passageways grew more intense.
For some reason, Yang Qi felt like he was back in the Cave Temple of the Vajra Māyādevī. In fact, the pressure here was even more intense. Thankfully, he was now as strong as a Terrifying expert, and could fly. Furthermore, he didn't need to fly; the Executors of the Ancient Road were carrying him. Chapter 988

This pushes his layer scaling even higher because the first key and second key both scale more than the Three-thousandth ranked Immortal Worlds on their plane of existences (God World's And Lower Worlds's).

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

about Tsuki ga Michibiku Isekai Douchuu
their layers are based on hax being ineffective on someone with more mana than the user and increasing mana increase the potency.
more mana=more potency.

 

[YungManzi]

about Tsuki ga Michibiku Isekai Douchuu
their layers are based on hax being ineffective on someone with more mana than the user and increasing mana increase the potency.
more mana=more potency.

This is false^^

Not true Xxx head canon.

Having mana gives you resistance to magic, but it has nothing to do with your mana relative to another character. Rather the specific magic ability in question

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

This is false^^

Not true Xxx head canon.

Having mana gives you resistance to magic, but it has nothing to do with your mana relative to another character. Rather the specific magic ability in question

he is lying.

the whole verse rely on mana for everything: hax and resitance
having more mana make you unaffected by a character with less mana than you.
the even say: "it's like pouring a bucket of poison into an ocean" when they explain how they can't affect a character with more mana than them.

if you don't believe me ask for scans.

 

[KingNanaya]

if you don't believe me ask for scans.

scans please

 

[YungManzi]

he is lying.

the whole verse rely on mana for everything: hax and resitance
having more mana make you unaffected by a character with less mana than you.
the even say: "it's like pouring a bucket of poison into an ocean" when they explain how they can't affect a character with more mana than them.

if you don't believe me ask for scans.

Nothing anywhere does it say anything about prople having more mana than you = being unaffected by your hax.

Hibiki and Tomoki had more mana than almost anyone at the very beginning of the story, and yet they’re still very wary of being haxed.

 

[Theglassman12]

@EL_xWatcher1234x @YungManzi Enough with the lying accusations back and forth, provide scans for the verse or don't comment on the subject matter.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

scans please

1)I don't remember the chapter for the quote

2) objects can resist hax if pour mana into them

“Ah! Damn it! So it won’t work if I don’t give it resistance to the petrification itself huh. Then how about this?!” (Makoto)

After meditating, Makoto once again puts his hand on the table and pours magic power.

The two Gorgons watch attentively. Even if it was only for an instant, they lost their words after seeing the table turned back from its petrified state. On the other hand, Ema didn’t show much agitation and is looking at Makoto. The girl that got surprised every time by Makoto is already gone.

This time, matching the words of Makoto, the table that returned to its wooden state didn’t turn back to stone.

Even after a while, it didn’t turn into stone again.

“Unbelievable”Chapter110

3) their fear, paralysis also come from their aura passively affecting someone with less mana than them.

When I confirmed her appearance, she suddenly faced my way. What is this? If there is a flag with this person, I will be seriously expecting something, you know?

Even though I have superior eyesight here, that side was also watching me. I-Is this fate?

That she was watching me was an understatement; she had her eyes wide open. But at that moment I hadn’t noticed it.

She was paralyzed by something that my body was emitting.

But the girl didn’t run away. That’s why I interpreted it in a hopeful way.

Just like that, I got closer to her. I gave her a decisive and friendly “Excuse me”. Of course, with my best smile along with it.

And the reaction of the girl was to scream her lungs out, and like shooting out in a dash, she ran with all she had. It was a surprise that she even did a crouching start.

Is this what you would call a complete rejection? It hurts me a lot. Ch15

it's not even that impressive and could be just ignored.

It looks like I was discharging an incredible amount of magic power while I was walking. And it was an overwhelming amount that even normal people would be able to recognize as well. To be more concrete, it felt like everything in several tens of meters around me looked distorted.

Everyone in Asora was obviously aware of this, but they came to a mutual understanding. Since I had a slave dragon that was able to carry a dimension and, moreover, my appearance was that of a hyuman. The people themselves seemed to not mind my magic power leaking Ch16

and that's why something like magic absorption is irresistible, because it's just energy absorption.

“Really. How is it going at the side of the ring?”

“Umu, it is not that complicated. After all, it only has the effect of sucking the magic power of its user.”

“Truly a cursed ring. Fufufufufu.”

“It’s not a laughing matter. For the beginning at the very least, it has to have good effectiveness. When I got a request to make the performance better and not think about the wellbeing of the body, I was surprised that they gave me a darkness filled ring. The good thing is that it can be taken off at any time.”

“I heard that at a later time. I wanted to be there as well.”

“It’s a cursed ring effect that was made using the maximum of its material after all. At the end, we were able to make the foundation. Now we only have to make the effectiveness better.”

“Oooh! That is some progress there.”

“Increasing the potential of this, it could go from a white to a red ring. To make the darkness filled ring… How about Beren?”

darkness magic can absorb mana and no one in the verse has resisted this absorption.

the mc got so much mana it's possible to sense it from the other side of the world.

“I feel like there is another one on the edge of the world.”

He could feel the fragment of magic power, but there should be no way for him to feel the magic power when the distance was from the castle that was in the north of the continent to the wastelands that were located on the edge of the world.

But he felt it. What was it?

Even the demon lord had no answer to that. That’s why he was perplexed.

“No matter the circumstances, I shouldn’t be able to feel the magic power of someone in the wastelands at the edge of the world. That’s why, it’s not certain, but I think that there is another one. An otherworlder that is not a hero.”

 

[YungManzi]

1)I don't remember the chapter for the quote

2) objects can resist hax if pour mana into them


3) their fear, paralysis also come from their aura passively affecting someone with less mana than them.

it's not even that impressive and could be just ignored.

and that's why something like magic absorption is irresistible, because it's just energy absorption.

darkness magic can absorb mana and no one in the verse has resisted this absorption.

the mc got so much mana it's possible to sense it from the other side of the world.

Can someone please point out where in any of these quotes it says that the reason they can’t affect them with hax is because they have less mana than the object they’re trying to affect.

 

[YungManzi]

We’ve been over this before with the same argument which EL conceded.

Chapter 8: “Trapping him in the mist barrier, I checked out the memories of the enemy hyuman, and I was shocked.”

Tomoe can seal and look at the memories of Makoto, who has more mana than her.

How do I know he has more mana than her?

“With his approval, I began the process of the pact with me as the lead. He doesn’t know the process of it, so it’s a matter of course.

A pact of 50-50. This is absurd, the configuration I am trying to push is not maintaining at all. How out of the norm.

A 70-30 parent and child pact. Impossible, this is also pushed away. Just how much magic power does he have?

An 80-20 ruling pact. I was somehow able to retain the configuration. To think I would be pressured down to this point. My pride as a superior dragon is a bit hurt.”

^because of this from the same chapter.

She could only make a ruling pact with Makoto because of their enormous difference in mana.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Tsuki ga verse is currently greatly outdated and is planned to go under some big revisions in the future, currently there is no clear number of hax layers used as those types of debates are things argued in the general discussion thread (were the things to get revised are talked in general), so I think is better to save this type of debate for when the crts for the revisions are actually made as there is no established number of hax to defend or disprove. My personal opinion at least, though if both want to do it here and now go ahead ig.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah not really seeing layered hax there, nothing remotely mentions spells that can affect people with established resistances.

 

[YungManzi]

Yeah not really seeing layered hax there, nothing remotely mentions spells that can affect people with established resistances.

Those posts were more about how the mechanics of magic resistance works, and arguing whether or not layers are a function of weakness for the ability themselves.

Only a few magic abilities are shown to have layers, and the layers vary between abilities.

For example:

Hatsuharu
(Chapters 334-335)

“I see. This petrification is a special skill from the girl you saw in the mock battle just a moment ago, Hatsuharu. She can petrify everything around when she fights.” (Makoto)

“…Is that so. Aah, so that’s why Jin-senpai’s group have all been…and even us who are far away. Ah, and even the ground?” (Samilla)

^Hatsuharu displays the ability to petrify Makoto's students.

“I feel like Sensei is keeping up some sort of spell at all times… From what I see, it is not Kuro. In that case, that girl is doing something continuously? She is not just your warrior type? Maybe we should deploy a barrier for illusions and abnormal effects just in case…” (Sif)

When I look back, I could see that everyone in Jin’s group has been petrified, too.

Aah…

The barrier that Sif deployed was of no use, huh.

^All of them were petrified, including Sif who deployed a barrier which protects from abnormal magical effects.

“Well then, one more hint. Hatsuharu’s petrification skill is more powerful and on the level of a curse, but it is currently quite suppressed. To an extent that even an average adventurer might be able to deal with it.” (Makoto)

“Yeah. Also, Shiki and I reduced the effects of the petrification a whole lot, and yet, not a single one of you managed to endure it.” (Makoto)

^Her petrification is a suppressed version of her true ability for the sake of sparring, and Makoto makes a point of commenting on how his students couldn't "endure" it, even when it was reduced for them to be capable of resisting.

I had slight expectations for Amelia who has unexpectedly high magic resistance, but it was no good.

^Makoto implies magic resistance is what would allow the students to get around the petrification.

“Sif alone seemed to have been on guard for abnormal status effects, but with a countermeasure on the level of insurance only, it didn’t serve you for anything.” (Makoto)

Sif was happy that she was praised, but was soon shot down, so she was vexed by it.

If Sif and Amelia had placed strong countermeasures for petrification, I think they could have resisted it.

^They could only resist it with strong countermeasures

…That’s right, Daena. Holding back is truly important. We adjusted it to a degree where students could properly treat it; one for Amelia’s group, and the other for Samilla’s group. You probably don’t understand the extent yet, but that girl can petrify magic power and your very soul too, so if you can’t endure it at that very moment, it is already too late for anything, no treatment will bring you back from that.” (Makoto)

^More on her true ability.

“I actually wanted you guys to notice by now. That’s the environment adventurers live in.” (Makoto)

“Adventurers…” (Jin)

“They prepare themselves for a variety of situations, and they make sure to never fail in their observations in order to survive.” (Makoto)

“…”

^Makoto once again implies that the average adventurer could resist it.


All that being said; Sif's barrier/Magic Resistance (Makoto implies magic resistance can stop petrification) < Nerfed Petrification (1 layer) < Average Adventurer < True Petrification (2 layers, average adventurer cannot resist it)

 

[Rabbit2002]

@Rabbit2002 a power infinitely increasing wouldn’t help for layers, it would need some feats of affecting practically an infinite number of folks with said resistances as well as channel that power into a specific individual to increase in potency for you to get infinite layers.

In addition to what I have provided above. I still have a question as to why this is relevant. Cultivation base/realm =/= physical power/AP (although they sometimes go hand in hand), you can have far more physical power without enhancing the cultivation base and still be oppressed by the higher cultivation base. And Realm is more than just a vague hax potency quantification. It's also about resistance and qualitative levels, the higher the realm, the stronger your destiny and the harder it is to change.

Even the rotation of the Wheel of Fate was unable to resolve it.
He knew that the higher one's realm was, the more powerful one's destiny would be, and the harder it would be for the Wheel of Destiny to change the trajectory of others' destinies.Mammoth Dharma-Heaven's cultivation base was in the immortal ancestor level, and he wasn't someone Yang Qi could deal with. Chapter 593

Not only that, even if it's just increased strength. It also extends to metaphysical and fundamental aspects. Like the stronger you are, the stronger the concept (Dao-Fruit) will be and therefore the harder it will be to break and influence, in the case of people who are so strong that they cannot break Dao-Fruit (Concept) for the rest of their lives

Apparently, his fateless dao fruit was incredibly tough, making it impossible for him to shatter it.
To leave a mark on it was unimaginably difficult.
That was because they were too powerful, and it was also the truth of the universe. The more powerful a person was, the more powerful their Dao Heart would be, and the more difficult it would be to shatter it. Every time a Dao mark was carved, it would be extremely difficult. Rumor has it that in the long river of history, there were some extraordinary figures that were unable to leave even the slightest mark on their Dao Fruits throughout their entire lives because they were too powerful. In the end, they died of depression, and their Dao Fruits dispersed.
Yang Qi was in a very difficult situation, and he needed to figure out a way to use the power to shatter the Dao Heart. Chapter 711

His fateless dao fruit appeared, as enormous as a planet—or even an immortal world—swirling with primal-chaos paleo-energy, above the dao of heaven. In fact, the laws of the dao of heaven weren’t even aware of the existence of this dao heart, which surpassed truth itself, existing as an enigmatic concept unknown to the entire world. - Chapter 742
杨奇的命运虚无道果显现出来,极大,如星球,如仙界,耸立在虚无深处,混沌古气在上面缠绕,完全摆脱了命运的纠缠,凌驾于天道之上,可以看到,这一片的天道法则,根本不知道有这个道果的存在,道果超越了真理,以整个世界上一种不为人知的概念存在着。- Chapter 742

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Yeah not really seeing layered hax there, nothing remotely mentions spells that can affect people with established resistances.

no hax has ever affected someone with more mana than the user

Tomoe can seal and look at the memories of Makoto, who has more mana than her.

How do I know he has more mana than her?

her power doesn't is limited to hyumans like Makoto and doesn't work on people from another world.
human>hyuman in everything.

“You can’t use it anymore?” (Karin)

“Shape the magic power and knit it into a spell, and then shoot it; all of those steps have incredible pressure in them, so we can’t even create a small light. In the first place, the magic power in this world is too thin. Shaping the magic power and knitting it with an aria places a heavy burden in the body. Even casting the spell at the end feels as if there’s some sort of outstanding power from the world that rejects this. The pressure is so strong it feels as if they were saying ‘no way we will let you use magic’.”

Karin was born and raised in this world, so this is a new and fresh opinion.

The reason why people from a different world can’t use magic in this world despite being able to normally use it in theirs. Even though it was a simple question, she was given an opinion she had never heard before, and Karin had somewhat begun to accept that they were from a parallel world.

If it is a world that’s ruled by different laws, different common sense, and different standards, no matter where it is, it would be correct to call it a parallel world.

In that case, would it be possible that any human can use magic to a certain degree if they were to go to other worlds? -is the question that was born in her, but she decided to not ask that right now and just listen.

“We are happy to hear that we have the talent, but right now me and my husband are simply normal people with weak bodies. extra59

normal humans are like superman even to strong hyumans.

normal humans will naturally gain resistance against her memory manipulation.

…By the way, it wasn’t good to begin with.
“I am sorry, Waka. Just like before, I couldn’t read his memories.” (Tomoe)
Tomoe reports to me mortified.
It seems like it somewhat succeeded with Tomoki, but as I thought, it doesn’t work on everyone.
There’s people with high resistance towards it, and there’s a variety of spells that serve as countermeasure against this.
Senpai and Tomoki should be getting stronger by the day.
In that case, in the future, the memory vaccuum probably won’t work that much on the Japanese people.
In a sense, the only way for her to get information of Japan will be from my memories, and that will most likely depress her. ch 265

if there is a huge gap in mana difference this is what happen when they make a pact.

What I am trying to say is…

If he makes a pact with me, it would be the pact that is 10 times less than them, the “provisions pact” which will link us together.

Flatly saying, he would be absorbed and not even his existence would be left. I was reluctant, but Lich was also pretty pitiful. Because he was told off a lot by Tomoe and Mio.

Those girls got together and said that they didn’t want “me” to have an impurity mixed in within. To be called an impurity, I can’t even measure how he must be feeling.

Because he couldn’t even make it to slave relation with his own effort, I thought that the foundation in being my follower was impossible in itsel

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

^Hatsuharu displays the ability to petrify Makoto's students.

give the scans that show they have more mana than her.

 

[Seracle]

First time doing this, and I might as well tackle one of the most controversial verse in term of layering because why not? Anyway, here is my attempt in proposing a layer-scaling system in nasuverse so even a non-reader can easily understand, while also provide some candidates for the "infinite layers" thingy. And by "a", I mean 2 different systems.
And since it's a hassle to scan for every little things I have to say, which scatter all across the nasuverse writing, I will mostly use the scan from atlas academy, a site which scrap data directly from the game Fate/Grand Order and also provide a search engine in case you want to verify, and from the fandom's own wiki pages which store almost every materials released by far and every references also include the material's name and page from which the scan comes. Also I think a lot of nasuverse supporters can vouch for their legitimacy.
First, we have Mystery, which is anything that's supernatural. When mages use Magecraft, they are trying to recreate Mystery by using Magical Energy. As a rule of thumb, an older and stronger Mystery will beat a more recent and weaker one, to the point where it completely nullifies them. It's by this rule that Lugh Beowulf, basically a mysterious creature with 2000 years worth of Mystery, is able to invalidate anything a modern Mage can throw at him while also piercing a story/law-based conceptual defense of another mysterious being namely the Bridge Giant with only 1000 years worth of Mystery, which modern mage like Touko can't in the first place and defeating it. This is obviously both a resisting and a resistance-piercing feat, which mean anytime something is described as having a stronger Mystery or simply older, it automatically receives a +1 layer of resistance or resistance-piercing to the thing it's currently being compared to. A big milestone to abuse this is the end of the Age of Gods when Solomon died, which is 931 BC, even older than Beowulf. What is the Age of God? Simple, it's when Gods, or Divine Spirits, simply exist. Which mean by default unless states otherwise, all Gods will nullify any Mystery from the 931 BC onward, which basically when 80% of Nasuverse's writings' contexts take places, as justified by Gilgamesh, someone who lived in the Age of Gods. That leads to Gods automatically get +1 layer of resistance and resistance-piercing to the highest layer hax showcased by later mages, myterious being like Servants, Dead Apostles, etc., whoever exist after the Gods. I'm not going to list the highest layer of each hax here for obvious reason, and they also vary from hax to hax, but that's how the first scaling system based on Mystery works. Also, about the application of this system to Authority. As you might already know, Authorities are miracles, or essentially, Mysteries, based on the definition of Magecraft above with at least 6000 years old, and outside of offensively, they can be used defensively, like Tiamat using hers to negate Ishtar's Authority. So they fit perfectly to the scaling system above. Authority's strength is measured by a God's Divinity, basically how godly they are, as mentioned here by how you can reduce Quetzalcoatl's Authority by reducing her Divinity. From there it's safe to assume that a description of "higher Divinity" or similar will provide a +1 layer of resistance or resistance-piercing to that God's Authority, on top of the already +1 to the highest layer showed by beings who came after Gods. Noted that this scaling system required case by case consideration, therefore cannot be used to scale to infinite layer.
As for the second scaling system, it's about Magical Energy, the thing used to recreate Mystery as mentioned above. Because simply having more magical energy will help you resist something that previously can't be resisted (this example) or piercing something that previously can't be pierced (like this example where Brynhild used rune with more magical energy to bypass Surtr's resistance), anything that used more magical energy will pierce/resist lesser one (with the same effect ofc), so it gives them +1 layer. I purposely use fire resistance in the first example and reality warping in the second to show that they're not only applied to simple-effect skills. Now, how to scale this to infinite layer? Simple, any skill that used infinite magical energy will have infinite layer. Now you might ask why that is the case if we don't know how much energy does it take in the aforementioned example to increase its layer piercing/resisting effect? Because we can see above that using a finite more amount of magical energy will increase its layer. We don't know how much but we know it's finite (1). Let's assume we have a skill using x magical energy, we need something with x+y energy to negate that. From (1) we know that x+y is still a finite number, and anything that use infinite amount of energy must be greater than x+y, therefore it will pierce/resist it. By the power of mathematical induction, we can extend this to any number of finite magical energy, therefore we have that conclusion.
Also I'm fully awared that just because someone has infite magical energy doesn't mean they can blow them all up in a finite amount of time for a skill to make it infinite layer, that's why I don't consider Tiamat with her Sea of Life to have infinite layer hax because of the lack of evident to show that she has used infinite amount of magical energy to cast skills, as well as any other magecraft/authoriy/magic... users. But I think I have someone that might do the trick based on her unique nature, which is Kama. Kama is a god who has the ability to create her own conceptual universe which is infinite in size, as well as the ability to create clone with identical stat to her. And she has created enough clones to fill her whole universe, effectively making its number infinite. Naturally, anything with a supernatural effect required magical energy (pun not intended), and her clones also have a Mana stat like her too. So basically she can and has created infinite clones, each clone required magical energy, not to mentioned they can all used the same skills as her so the amount of magical energy they can deploy in one go is infinite since, well, there are infinite of them. Also, guess where her universe is? Inside her, effectively make her have infinite magical energy to resist other skills in this form. So I make her my candidate for the infinite layer piercing/resistance (with the hax she has ofc, which is a lot and I believe we already have a page for that so I'm not gonna list all of them here).
These are just the models for power scaling I propose for nasuverse, and there are surely many other cases that I might have not cover, so if you guys think it's legit then other nasu supporters can cover some more cases based on this system for me.

 

[YungManzi]

no hax has ever affected someone with more mana than the user

This is what I'm talking about. We've been over this. The Makoto example, which you have no counter for.

You've never even presented anything that says what you're claiming.

her power doesn't is limited to hyumans like Makoto and doesn't work on people from another world.
human>hyuman in everything.

This isn't true, because as I showed you months ago, her ability also worked on Hibiki. Who is human.

“Techniques with a Japanese sword.

I can see the details in Hibiki’s memories, but nothing could be better than seeing it in person.”

“She was sitting so close to Waka in the drawing room, but she did not show any expression of having an ulterior motive. Finding out exactly what this girl gained from that conversation is one of my objectives.

I’m secretly looking through her memories, but from the conversation with Waka earlier, it seems she has gathered most of the available information about Waka as Raidou of the Kuzunoha company.”

^Chapter 174.

Does that look like her ability doesn't work on Humans?

There's also a statement from her that says as they become stronger she won't be able to read their (The heroes) memories anymore, but I can't find it for the life of me.

 

[YungManzi]

And for anyone confused by what we're arguing about

His argument: Hax only works on people with lower mana than the user.

My argument: Once you reach a certain amount of mana, you gain resistance to some magical abilities.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

This is what I'm talking about. We've been over this. The Makoto example, which you have no counter for.

You've never even presented anything that says what you're claiming.


This isn't true, because as I showed you months ago, her ability also worked on Hibiki. Who is human.



^Chapter 174.

Does that look like her ability doesn't work on Humans?

Still nothing that show hax affecting someone with more mana
Tomoe has more man than Hibiki

Makoto is a hyuman
Human>hyuman

I meant humans have better resistance because they are superior to the inhabitant of that world, even their mana pool expand faster and eventually surpass them

There's also a statement from her that says as they become stronger she won't be able to read their (The heroes) memories anymore, but I can't find it for the life of me.

This

By the way, it wasn’t good to begin with.
“I am sorry, Waka. Just like before, I couldn’t read his memories.” (Tomoe)
Tomoe reports to me mortified.
It seems like it somewhat succeeded with Tomoki, but as I thought, it doesn’t work on everyone.
There’s people with high resistance towards it, and there’s a variety of spells that serve as countermeasure against this.
Senpai and Tomoki should be getting stronger by the day.
In that case, in the future, the memory vaccuum probably won’t work that much on the Japanese people.
In a sense, the only way for her to get information of Japan will be from my memories, and that will most likely depress her. ch 265

This is her memory hax being useless on a human from Japan .
Stronger because they increase their mana and will evetually surpass her and that's all they have been doing.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

And for anyone confused by what we're arguing about

His argument: Hax only works on people with lower mana than the user.

My argument: Once you reach a certain amount of mana, you gain resistance to some magical abilities.

Show scan of hax working on someone with more mana than the user.

 

[YungManzi]

Show scan of hax working on someone with more mana than the user.

I already did.

I meant humans have better resistance because they are superior to the inhabitant of that world, even their mana pool expand faster and eventually surpass them

It still worked on someone with more mana than her, so it doesn't matter. You're shifting the goal post.


On one hand you're arguing that her hax only worked on Makoto despite him having more mana because he's hyuman (Which, in reality doesn't matter, because Tsuki ga hyumans are more similar in physiology to IRL humans than Tsuki ga Humans), and on the other hand you're claiming that it only worked on Hibiki because she has more mana than hibiki (Which you can't prove).

So which is it?

Is her power limited to hyumans or does it only work on people with less mana than her?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I already did.

It still worked on someone with more mana than her, so it doesn't matter. You're shifting the goal post.


On one hand you're arguing that her hax only worked on Makoto despite him having more mana because he's hyuman (Which, in reality doesn't matter, because Tsuki ga hyumans are more similar in physiology to IRL humans than Tsuki ga Humans), and on the other hand you're claiming that it only worked on Hibiki because she has more mana than hibiki (Which you can't prove).

So which is it?

Is her power limited to humans or does it only work on people with less mana than her?

Can you repost it?

Yes, I agree it's a hax that bypass magic power difference only when used on hyumans, but It can't  do the same when it's used on humans.

Makoto's parent are hyuman so yes he is a hyuman, why do you think the summon people from earth if they can just use the inhabitant?
Because: human>hyuman

Her power is a hyuman limited hax.
The only layer in the serie is:
Human>hyuman

 

[KingNanaya]

First time doing this, and I might as well tackle one of the most controversial verse in term of layering because why not? Anyway, here is my attempt in proposing a layer-scaling system in nasuverse so even a non-reader can easily understand, while also provide some candidates for the "infinite layers" thingy. And by "a", I mean 2 different systems.
And since it's a hassle to scan for every little things I have to say, which scatter all across the nasuverse writing, I will mostly use the scan from atlas academy, a site which scrap data directly from the game Fate/Grand Order and also provide a search engine in case you want to verify, and from the fandom's own wiki pages which store almost every materials released by far and every references also include the material's name and page from which the scan comes. Also I think a lot of nasuverse supporters can vouch for their legitimacy.
First, we have Mystery, which is anything that's supernatural. When mages use Magecraft, they are trying to recreate Mystery by using Magical Energy. As a rule of thumb, an older and stronger Mystery will beat a more recent and weaker one, to the point where it completely nullifies them. It's by this rule that Lugh Beowulf, basically a mysterious creature with 2000 years worth of Mystery, is able to invalidate anything a modern Mage can throw at him while also piercing a story/law-based conceptual defense of another mysterious being namely the Bridge Giant with only 1000 years worth of Mystery, which modern mage like Touko can't in the first place and defeating it. This is obviously both a resisting and a resistance-piercing feat, which mean anytime something is described as having a stronger Mystery or simply older, it automatically receives a +1 layer of resistance or resistance-piercing to the thing it's currently being compared to. A big milestone to abuse this is the end of the Age of Gods when Solomon died, which is 931 BC, even older than Beowulf. What is the Age of God? Simple, it's when Gods, or Divine Spirits, simply exist. Which mean by default unless states otherwise, all Gods will nullify any Mystery from the 931 BC onward, which basically when 80% of Nasuverse's writings' contexts take places, as justified by Gilgamesh, someone who lived in the Age of Gods. That leads to Gods automatically get +1 layer of resistance and resistance-piercing to the highest layer hax showcased by later mages, myterious being like Servants, Dead Apostles, etc., whoever exist after the Gods. I'm not going to list the highest layer of each hax here for obvious reason, and they also vary from hax to hax, but that's how the first scaling system based on Mystery works. Also, about the application of this system to Authority. As you might already know, Authorities are miracles, or essentially, Mysteries, based on the definition of Magecraft above with at least 6000 years old, and outside of offensively, they can be used defensively, like Tiamat using hers to negate Ishtar's Authority. So they fit perfectly to the scaling system above. Authority's strength is measured by a God's Divinity, basically how godly they are, as mentioned here by how you can reduce Quetzalcoatl's Authority by reducing her Divinity. From there it's safe to assume that a description of "higher Divinity" or similar will provide a +1 layer of resistance or resistance-piercing to that God's Authority, on top of the already +1 to the highest layer showed by beings who came after Gods. Noted that this scaling system required case by case consideration, therefore cannot be used to scale to infinite layer.
As for the second scaling system, it's about Magical Energy, the thing used to recreate Mystery as mentioned above. Because simply having more magical energy will help you resist something that previously can't be resisted (this example) or piercing something that previously can't be pierced (like this example where Brynhild used rune with more magical energy to bypass Surtr's resistance), anything that used more magical energy will pierce/resist lesser one (with the same effect ofc), so it gives them +1 layer. I purposely use fire resistance in the first example and reality warping in the second to show that they're not only applied to simple-effect skills. Now, how to scale this to infinite layer? Simple, any skill that used infinite magical energy will have infinite layer. Now you might ask why that is the case if we don't know how much energy does it take in the aforementioned example to increase its layer piercing/resisting effect? Because we can see above that using a finite more amount of magical energy will increase its layer. We don't know how much but we know it's finite (1). Let's assume we have a skill using x magical energy, we need something with x+y energy to negate that. From (1) we know that x+y is still a finite number, and anything that use infinite amount of energy must be greater than x+y, therefore it will pierce/resist it. By the power of mathematical induction, we can extend this to any number of finite magical energy, therefore we have that conclusion.
Also I'm fully awared that just because someone has infite magical energy doesn't mean they can blow them all up in a finite amount of time for a skill to make it infinite layer, that's why I don't consider Tiamat with her Sea of Life to have infinite layer hax because of the lack of evident to show that she has used infinite amount of magical energy to cast skills, as well as any other magecraft/authoriy/magic... users. But I think I have someone that might do the trick based on her unique nature, which is Kama. Kama is a god who has the ability to create her own conceptual universe which is infinite in size, as well as the ability to create clone with identical stat to her. And she has created enough clones to fill her whole universe, effectively making its number infinite. Naturally, anything with a supernatural effect required magical energy (pun not intended), and her clones also have a Mana stat like her too. So basically she can and has created infinite clones, each clone required magical energy, not to mentioned they can all used the same skills as her so the amount of magical energy they can deploy in one go is infinite since, well, there are infinite of them. Also, guess where her universe is? Inside her, effectively make her have infinite magical energy to resist other skills in this form. So I make her my candidate for the infinite layer piercing/resistance (with the hax she has ofc, which is a lot and I believe we already have a page for that so I'm not gonna list all of them here).
These are just the models for power scaling I propose for nasuverse, and there are surely many other cases that I might have not cover, so if you guys think it's legit then other nasu supporters can cover some more cases based on this system for me.

I ain't read any of that, but thank you

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Is this enough proof for layered mind resistance?

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Yeah that exists in Sage Monarch/Dragon Talisman, I originally thought it wasn't enough so I didn't include it. There are basically two things: The more condensed the laws and abilities, the stronger they are and the more they penetrate resistance. In addition, cultivation base is not only hax potency, it is also the potency of resistance. As the quote said, because the cultivation base of Yang Qi's nascent divinity (soul) did not grow fast enough to keep up with the cultivation base of the Sea of Consciousness and his body, his soul suffered the same effect like someone with a low cultivation base who goes to Immortal Worlds

That's why they often shrink the scope of their source (e.g. Immortal worlds) to make the law stronger and denser/closer, this process is also proportional to the aforementioned Will Coverengce. The higher the Cultivation base, the more resistant to their effects, such as A Legendary will be Death haxed, but a higher Great Sage will not be, but will only be paralyzed and neutralize their powers, With a Demi Immortal or Demonlisher they will completely fine and can freely express his strength and live like normal people. However, if they set foot in higher-level Immortal Worlds, where the laws are stronger and denser, they will suffer the same effect, and only Godmyth (who is higher than Demonlisher) is not affected by Higher Immortal World's Death hax.





To be more specific about this process: Ten times condensation can powernull Godmyth, Yang Qi demonstrated infinite times condensation when he made Heavens Beyond Heavens aka much greater infinite recursion of infinite worlds within worlds into something finite and unaffected by its effects

Spoiler

2-A Justification​

At the very least, they are able to perform such 2-A feats:

Regarding Scaling, this feat was accomplished by a random mythical realm from the fifth ranked Immortal Realm (named Brahman Immortal World)
The Immortal Worlds are hierarchical. The higher the rank of Immortal Worlds, the stronger the laws will be and suppress the power of anyone who is not strong enough or resistant (effect will vary depending on the strength of the laws, you can lose most powers or die).

The Immortal Worlds also have a size hierarchy based on these ranks, a thirty-third ranked Immortal World would be so large that ten octillions tenth ranked Immortal worlds (MC's immortal world/Sage Monarch Heaven) are incomparable and twentieth ranked Immortal Worlds were like grains of sand compared to the ocean itself:



Heaven Beyond Heaven (thirty-third ranked Immortal World) is composed of the laws of the universe, even tsunamis or oceans are not water but the laws of the universe and volcanic eruptions are also eruptions of laws, each drop of "water" in its ocean can corrode and kill the fifth or sixth division of Godmyth.
In terms of size, it is so vast that Yang Qi could not fully explore it (his fodder self from more than one hundred and sixty chapters ago was able to explore the entire 2-A structures of Godmyth without any problems)



Of-course size and laws will be inversely proportional to each other. An example is when MC reached a power index of 220, he shrunk his Alliance (made up of hundreds of trillions of Immortal Worlds, as large as ten million of thirty-third ranked Immortal Worlds) by ten times, the laws became so strong that even the Mythical realms can't fly and lose most of their abilities

The same chapter where he performed that feat also said that the Great Emperor's cultivation level was basically too high for him, and these Great Emperors were still haxed to death in Cave Temple of the Vajra Māyādevī although Temple has weaker magical laws (layered/potency) than Three-hundredth Immortal Worlds




This pushes his layer scaling even higher because the first key and second key both scale more than the Three-thousandth ranked Immortal Worlds on their plane of existences (God World's And Lower Worlds's).

Bumping this

 

[Theglassman12]

@Rabbit2002 that doesn’t exactly refute the point that being stronger doesn’t automatically mean layered hax, the feats of affecting people with resistances is needed for layered hax.

@EL_xWatcher1234x yeah still not seeing layered hax here.

@YungManzi the petrification stuff at the beginning has some merits with layered hax.

@LIFE_OF_KING Ehh, not sure about it since it just looks like he’s able to resist the mind hax from the therapist and not the therapist just affecting him despite having resistances from the get go.

@Seracle Can you organize the post to be more organized cause I can barely understand most of this post.

 

[LordGinSama]

Feels to to have a main verse that doesn't have layers lmfao.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

the feats of affecting people with resistances is needed for layered hax.

Yeah that exists in Sage Monarch/Dragon Talisman, I originally thought it wasn't enough so I didn't include it. There are basically two things: The more condensed the laws and abilities, the stronger they are and the more they penetrate resistance. In addition, cultivation base is not only hax potency, it is also the potency of resistance. As the quote said, because the cultivation base of Yang Qi's nascent divinity (soul) did not grow fast enough to keep up with the cultivation base of the Sea of Consciousness and his body, his soul suffered the same effect like someone with a low cultivation base who goes to Immortal Worlds

It's also about resistance and qualitative levels, the higher the realm, the stronger your destiny and the harder it is to change.

Like the stronger you are, the stronger the concept (Dao-Fruit) will be and therefore the harder it will be to break and influence, in the case of people who are so strong that they cannot break Dao-Fruit (Concept) for the rest of their lives