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Hax Layer Evaluation Thread

deonment said:
  • "God Arjuna had obtained an immeasurable amount of divinity and divine authority over the entirety of the Indian Lostbelt. His power was so immense that even Rama's Noble Phantasm posseded little to no effect on him and he easily brushed off its destructive power as seemingly only being "annoying". (Rama have authority).
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Is it the thing that is supposed to give infinite layers?
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
As for Amaterasu, I can see countless layers being a thing for her now that I have a little more context.
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Hey Fuji
Can you would you be so kind as to explain why countless layers here is applicable?
Btw I am not complaining at all about the logic, I'm just curious to know what the logic is here that allows countless layers to be applicable and I would ask Glass himself preferably but I still have yet to gain his discord lol and he's currently unavailable here at the moment.
 
@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara I've already showed with Kokonoe how her Intervention can reach magnitudes in levels that Takamagahara couldn't really get to, who's on a whole nother dimension in power compared to her and Kokonoe is considered a low tier observer in comparison with rachel or terumi so it's impressive in of itself, so I'm not exactly taking a mile with the inch DT gave since he did give the groundworks for how numbers of people being affected can be factored into potency. In regards to the 100,000 people example, I'd argue it would be layers on that level if every single individual person has established resistances against that ability and if it can be focused on an individual to increase potency, especially when we have solid numbers to go off of with that example.

@Ss3micah you never even asked me for a discord 🗿
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara I've already showed with Kokonoe how her Intervention can reach magnitudes in levels that Takamagahara couldn't really get to, who's on a whole nother dimension in power compared to her and Kokonoe is considered a low tier observer in comparison with rachel or terumi so it's impressive in of itself, so I'm not exactly taking a mile with the inch DT gave since he did give the groundworks for how numbers of people being affected can be factored into potency. In regards to the 100,000 people example, I'd argue it would be layers on that level if every single individual person has established resistances against that ability and if it can be focused on an individual to increase potency, especially when we have solid numbers to go off of with that example.

@Ss3micah you never even asked me for a discord 🗿
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Well since your hear now
Can I know the reason for Itachi's Signature Move to have countless layers?
I curious to find what other verses the logic could potentially apply to hehehe :3

Lolol, I know. Which is why I have yet to gain it lololol 🤣
 
Ss3micah said:
Hey Fuji
Can you would you be so kind as to explain why countless layers here is applicable?
Btw I am not complaining at all about the logic, I'm just curious to know what the logic is here that allows countless layers to be applicable and I would ask Glass himself preferably but I still have yet to gain his discord lol and he's currently unavailable here at the moment.
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Because there seems to be precedent for combining PIs equaling an increase in layers, so it stands to reason that doing that infinitely would equal infinite layers. Or countless layers, you get the idea.
Theglassman12 said:
@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara I've already showed with Kokonoe how her Intervention can reach magnitudes in levels that Takamagahara couldn't really get to, who's on a whole nother dimension in power compared to her and Kokonoe is considered a low tier observer in comparison with rachel or terumi so it's impressive in of itself, 🗿
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I'm not denying that it's impressive, I just don't think any of this would equate to layers, let alone an infinite number of them.
Theglassman12 said:
so I'm not exactly taking a mile with the inch DT gave since he did give the groundworks for how numbers of people being affected can be factored into potency. In regards to the 100,000 people example, I'd argue it would be layers on that level if every single individual person has established resistances against that ability and if it can be focused on an individual to increase potency, especially when we have solid numbers to go off of with that example.
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That feels like a stretch. If the verse can't substantiate that the potency was increased to the degree you say it was, then I shrimply don't think we should assume the highest possible result. We see the Embryo add at most one more layer onto PI hax; There's a clear discrepancy between how much you claim it can do and how much we actually see it do.

Anyways, mind pinging some staff so they can comment on this?
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Looks good to me(y)

I already gave my opinion on this before, which is that it seems more like resistance negation than anything.

I feel like a lot of context is missing here. I'm really not seeing infinite layers here.
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Oh yeah another thing. The Emperor’s psychic light is so strong other psykers can’t read the auras or minds of others around him. They aren’t even targeting him specifically and likely wouldn’t be able to do so given the light is literally coming from him. Basically this is just a 1 layer resistance to mind manipulation and telepathy for causing others to resist the layered telepathy and mind manipulation.
 
AbaddonTheDisappointment said:
Oh yeah another thing. The Emperor’s psychic light is so strong other psykers can’t read the auras or minds of others around him. They aren’t even targeting him specifically and likely wouldn’t be able to do so given the light is literally coming from him. Basically this is just a 1 layer resistance to mind manipulation and telepathy for causing others to resist the layered telepathy and mind manipulation.
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The logic is sound, even if I'm not 100% sure if you could apply this to the Emperor himself. Not gonna split hairs over semantics though.
 
SweetDao said:
Is it the thing that is supposed to give infinite layers?
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No, the argument for infinite layers comes from Zeus who holds authority over an infinite number of things but doesn't have infinite authority, essentially the difference between having infinite (empty) jugs of water and a set amount of water that you can fill the jugs up with, and infinite water full stop.

I personally don't know where the argument for infinite authority layers first came from (it might have just been chinese telephone'd from when the LB came out).

Still, the next highest one would likely be from Arjuna who merged with (nearly) the entire Indian pantheon (including their authorities), which iirc was where an argument for hundreds of thousands of layers came from.

I have no idea what necoscaler is arguing.
 
@Ss3micah Amaterasu's controlling the countless number of beings who's literal existence is Phenomena Intervention, and are shown to naturally resist the abilities of Phenomena Intervention from the Embryo with Raquel and Es, Phenomena Intervention has established levels of scaled intervention, whether it's large scale or small scale as explained in the page itself, and with characters like Kokonoe establishing how focusing onto a specific object would increase in magnitude in terms of the power, it would qualify.

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara Didn't you say it falls into how much stronger the hax gets? Which I've shown with Kokonoe's level of intervention being on a higher level than Takamagahara when bringing Arakune to existence? I feel like it just boils down to personal disagreements rather than it not qualify but ok, I'll tag some staff members.

@Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Lonkitt @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X can you guys help out to evaluate the Blazblue embryo feats since me and Fuji are going in a bit of a back and forth on this?
 
Last edited:
Oh, KH has to be evaluated again on this? Oh well
27 layer stuff came from here (note that while it was proposed as ResNeg layers, it was accepted as just normal layers intead, with only the zero card falling as ResNeg), it doesn't just make up numbers from random scaling, but rather a number having inherent priority higher than a lower one for the purposes of a given ability.

Also, may as well bring up Xenoblade to be added to the OP as something to evaluate as I was told off-site they apparently may have up to infinite layers of intangibility or so, I'm personally unsure for the stuff behind it, but evaluating it for sure wouldn't hurt.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
The logic is sound, even if I'm not 100% sure if you could apply this to the Emperor himself. Not gonna split hairs over semantics though.
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So that’s an approval?

I mean based on how it’s described and how the Emperor is usually described as a sun, using the sun would be a decent metaphor. In this case Ahriman is trying to “see” something but he can’t because of a glare coming from the sun (The Emperor). Trying to look directly at the sun isn’t going to help him “see” it’d probably just blind him.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Because there seems to be precedent for combining PIs equaling an increase in layers, so it stands to reason that doing that infinitely would equal infinite layers. Or countless layers, you get the idea.
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I see
Thou for the sake of fairness and balance:

I would say that:
A) If in verse that process of combining PIs equaling an increase in layers was only done a few or limited number of times BUT theoretically it could be done seemingly endlessly but was not shown to be the case because of Lore and Story. Then I'd give that a "Varies, possibly up to Countless/Infinite" rating

B) If in verse that was process of combining PIs equaling an increase in layers as a constant thing happening ceaselessly and continually over a period of time. Then I'd give that a "Varies, eventually up to Countless/Infinite" or just at best "Countless" rating.

C) If in verse that was process of combining PIs equaling an increase in layers was a process that occurs infinitely without end. Then I'd give that a "Infinite" Rating

Just stating my own personal opinion
It does not sway things at all that happens here but I just wanted to give my input on how to make the layers balanced based on what is provided.

All in all, I could see Countless Layers working out using the logic
Now time to see what other verses I can find that uses similar logic
Also Thanks for the explanation, really appreciate that!!!!!!! 🤗 🤗 🤗 🤗 🤗
 
deonment said:
No, the argument for infinite layers comes from Zeus who holds authority over an infinite number of things but doesn't have infinite authority, essentially the difference between having infinite (empty) jugs of water and a set amount of water that you can fill the jugs up with, and infinite water full stop.

I personally don't know where the argument for infinite authority layers first came from (it might have just been chinese telephone'd from when the LB came out).

Still, the next highest one would likely be from Arjuna who merged with (nearly) the entire Indian pantheon (including their authorities), which iirc was where an argument for hundreds of thousands of layers came from.

I have no idea what necoscaler is arguing.
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Maybe all the Nasuverse supporters should like. stop posting here for a bit and work on one big post that explains everything, because as it stands now everything seems super disorganized. I can wait.
Theglassman12 said:
@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara Didn't you say it falls into how much stronger the hax gets? Which I've shown with Kokonoe's level of intervention being on a higher level than Amaterasu when bringing Arakune to existence? I feel like it just boils down to personal disagreements rather than it not qualify but ok, I'll tag some staff members.
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If people are compared to Amaterasu when it comes to PI then they can also get countless layers ig. Gonna leave this alone for now though, it's in the hands of staff now.
AbaddonTheDisappointment said:
So that’s an approval?

I mean based on how it’s described and how the Emperor is usually described as a sun, using the sun would be a decent metaphor. In this case Ahriman is trying to “see” something but he can’t because of a glare coming from the sun (The Emperor). Trying to look directly at the sun isn’t going to help him “see” it’d probably just blind him.
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Yeah, that works.
Bobsican said:
Oh, KH has to be evaluated again on this? Oh well
27 layer stuff came from here (note that while it was proposed as ResNeg layers, it was accepted as just normal layers intead, with only the zero card falling as ResNeg), it doesn't just make up numbers from random scaling, but rather a number having inherent priority higher than a lower one for the purposes of a given ability.

Also, may as well bring up Xenoblade to be added to the OP as something to evaluate as I was told off-site they apparently may have up to infinite layers of intangibility or so, I'm personally unsure for the stuff behind it, but evaluating it for sure wouldn't hurt.
Click to expand...
I'm gonna look into this later, if Glass doesn't beat me to it. Might be a while since I gotta make dinner and stuff first.
 
SweetDao said:
Sure, multiplying it would give more potency. The resistance of one mage isn't layered, it's one singular value.
Click to expand...
except this contradicts how magic resistance works.
SweetDao said:
If a mage has 100 in resistance, she'll produce an output of 1000 and bind it.
If a mage has 1000 in resistance, she'll produce an output of 10000 and bind it.
Ad infinitum.
The second mage doesn't have 900 layers above the first one.
Click to expand...
She has a singular output regardless of the target,, its just the multiplied value that increases.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Lonkitt @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X can you guys help out to evaluate the Blazblue embryo feats since me and Fuji are going in a bit of a back and forth on this?
Click to expand...
So, if I'm understanding correctly (correct me if I'm wrong);

There's Valkenhyen, who's resistant to Phenomena Intervention. A stronger god can overcome this resistance and an Embryo scales to the combined potency of an infinite number of similar beings, whose individual PI can be concentrated together to reach higher potency? Is that the logic being used?
 
@Planck69 Yeah, in Blazblue the PI itself has two different scales, small and large scale, the former being shown to increase in magnitudes like how one of the scientists with said power is focusing so much of it to bring one of her coworkers into existence, which a nigh omniscient vampire states is absurd and one of the gods wouldn't be capable of doing it. It's common with anyone that can use PI where their potency would increase to the point of affecting others with said power via focusing on said ability to a specific person. The Embryo itself affected an infinite number of valkenhayn, who is stated and shown to be naturally immune to the ability.
 
Authority based layers should be fine. Whether it's infinite or not, I don't really care. Don't really think touko should have infinite layers since it seems to be reactive (?). People who scale to arjuna and above should probably have near infinite at most, but that's about it
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Planck69 Yeah, in Blazblue the PI itself has two different scales, small and large scale, the former being shown to increase in magnitudes like how one of the scientists with said power is focusing so much of it to bring one of her coworkers into existence, which a nigh omniscient vampire states is absurd and one of the gods wouldn't be capable of doing it. It's common with anyone that can use PI where their potency would increase to the point of affecting others with said power. The Embryo itself affected an infinite number of valkenhayn, who is stated and shown to be naturally immune to the ability.
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Is there any example of this concentration overcoming resistance? If so then I can potentially see it being infinite layers of potency, if only cause the overall potency is equivalent to higher layers anyway, of which there's infinite PI.
 
Here is how layering works in Low Dimensional Game if anyone want to evaluate.


There are a total of nine different levels, with the gap between the start of a level and the peak of one being extremely vast. On top of this, due to the verses unique power System of SFU & Mind Power, the stronger one is the higher one's resistances. Here are examples of such;

It should also be stated that levels are not linear, although the only difference between levels is fundamentally Source Form Units, which are measured in numerical values. For example, Level 1 has 7 SFU, while Level 3 caps at 129, meaning levels are not really what is important and one's resistances are simply based on SFU.

Levels 1-9; 1-9 Layers of Resistances

Space-Time Rulers; Infinite Layers of Resistances (Consist of a Hierarchy of Infinite Beings each being stronger than the last with even the weakest being stronger than Level 9 beings.)
 
Authority based layers should be fine.
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authority layers are seperate from normal layers, as having a superior amount of authority allows you to nosell hax regardless of their potency/layering
KingNanaya said:
Don't really think touko should have infinite layers since it seems to be reactive (?).
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The mystic eyes are already infinite when deployed, she can just multiply each of the mystic eyes infinitely
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Bobsican is there any established resistances for the characters with said cards or no? Because that's needed for the layers to still qualify.
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Would this suffice? As I'm sure you evaluated the original thread in depth and thus should remember that this stuff is the whole combat system of the game, they invalidate stuff by having an higher-numbered card than what they're being opposed by.
 
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
authority layers are seperate from normal layers, as having a superior amount of authority allows you to nosell hax regardless of their potency/layering
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What is the point of this?
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
The mystic eyes are already infinite when deployed, she can just multiply each of the mystic eyes infinitely
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Send all the scans and stuff to my wall please. Playing the UNIB2 beta rn (it's peak)
 
@Planck69 We have Kokonoe in the previous timeloops in the first game being able to affect Hakumen with Phenomena Intervention despite him having the power of order, which grants resistance towards it, it took the true ending for him to fully adapt and overcome her intervention and break free of it. There's Es in her arcade mode finding the true wielder of the azure with Ragna and she PIs him to the gate despite being able to fight off the intervention of the normal Embryo. There might be some more noteworthy ones but I don't have any scans for them.
 
@Bobsican Not really, this seems to be more of a mechanic of the card system than any layers, especially when both characters can be affected by any numbered cards to begin with so no established resistance is there.
 
Ergenverse has it so that every higher level of cultivation (of which there are 9 levels per realm on average), grants greater potency and resistance than those below, completely negating the latter.

As can also be seen with Divine Sense, which is a manifestation of one's cultivation and soul;
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Planck69 We have Kokonoe in the previous timeloops in the first game being able to affect Hakumen with Phenomena Intervention despite him having the power of order, which grants resistance towards it, it took the true ending for him to fully adapt and overcome her intervention and break free of it. There's Es in her arcade mode finding the true wielder of the azure with Ragna and she PIs him to the gate despite being able to fight off the intervention of the normal Embryo. There might be some more noteworthy ones but I don't have any scans for them.
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It should be fine to me. I'd wait for more input just in case though.

Theglassman12 said:
@Bobsican Not really, this seems to be more of a mechanic of the card system than any layers, especially when both characters can be affected by any numbered cards to begin with so no established resistance is there.
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Agree with this.
 
Glad this is here, because I completely disagree with the 20-something Arifureta layers and argued against it on the thread using this exact logic.

Edit:

If it wasn't for me there'd be like 50 layers in Arifureta rn.
 
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