Hax Layer Evaluation Thread

[BasedNecoScaler69]

if you have a higher authority, you can completely resist the hax of the person with lower authority

level of potency or layers are irrelevant

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

level of potency or layers are irrelevant

Dr. Roman:
Hurry on ahead, Gudako-kun.
It seems that we don't have much time left.
Though the Underworld is here manifested in reality, it seems that merely lingering within it is sufficient to erode at your vitals and your Force of Providence (運命力, Unmei-Ryoku?, lit. "Force of Destiny").
Providence is, well ...
You can think of it as "the intrinsic Luck necessary to facilitate the continuation of a life."
Luck of a sufficient measure to "avoid mortal danger" is fundamentally indispensable to any organism.
In the event that Providence is by some means diminished, the organism is inescapably due to encounter misfortune.
Step into a street, and you might be randomly hit by an out-of-control vehicle.
The Underworld is a place of death, where Force of Providence is unnecessary.
That is, it's a World in which the luck needed to survive is itself unnecessary.

Ishtar:
That's indeed the case.
And therefore, if one is stained in the taint of this place, longevity is unlikely even upon escaping to the surface.

Ereshkigal:
I shall settle this alone ... !
O Gallu (ガルラ霊, Garura-rei?, lit. "Gallu Spirits") of the Underworld -- the Spears of Rot (腐敗の槍, Fuhai no Yari?, lit. "Spears of Putrefaction / Degeneration") arrayed before me!
Against that which trespasses, let us bring down the Iron Hammer of the Underworld (冥界の鉄槌, Meikai no Tettsui?)!
All hands, engage!

Destruction rains upon Tiamat.

Ereshkigal:
What say you? I believe it's good as finished. Even the Goddess Tiamat is within the Underworld merely a goddess.
Before the combined onslaught of myself and the Gallu, not a single being -- a single --

Chaos Tide manifests.

Ereshkigal:
Wha -- what --

Dr. Roman:
Chaos Tide (ケイオスタイド, Keiosu Taido?), compromising (侵食, Shinshoku?, lit. "eroding / encroaching") the Underworld!
This is bad! If we leave it alone, the Underworld will be overtaken!
And that's not all ... what is this?
Beast II Saint Graph (霊基, Reiki?, lit. "Spiritual Foundation") signature -- rapidly dilating (膨張, bouchou?, lit. "expanding / swelling")!
The Divine Regression (神代回帰, Jindai Kaiki?, lit. "Regression to the Age of Divinities") of the Saint Graph has advanced unto the Jurassic Era (ジュラ紀, Jura-Ki?).
That's no longer a Divinity (神性, Jinsei?, lit. "Divine Nature")! Unmistakably, it's the very Corpus of a God (神の体, Kami no Karada?, lit. "Flesh of God")!

Ereshkigal:
Eh, eh, eh -- !?
Wh- what's happened!?
Is it something that I've done -- !?

Dr. Roman:
Saint Graph Dilation OperationsInflation (霊基膨張工程インフレーション, Reiki Bouchou KouteiInfure-shon?) has ceased. Continuous reactivation (連続再起動, Renzoku Saikidou?) of Mana Reactor (魔力炉心, Maryoku Roshin?) confirmed ... !
Injuries incurred by the plummet into the Underworld are regenerating!
-- it's come ... ! This is --
This is the true appearance of Beast II!

Tiamat emerges from the Mud, having assumed her Draconic Corpus.

Tiamat
Aaaaaaa、AAAAAAAAAA――LaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA――

Clouds of Lahmu spill forth.

Mashu:
The Goddess Tiamat is releasing Lahmu (ラフム, Rahumu?) from her flesh!
They're spreading across the Underworld!

Ereshkigal:
It's impossible, right!? No matter how I look at it, it's impossible!
If it's only us, there's no way we can defeat something like that!
More than that, the tide is upon us!
The Underworld will be taken from me -- !

Lahmu arrives.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I have a two question about layers, i can ask this here?

Does this count as layer information analysis?

Scans the mansion in search of Skull and M.O.D.O.K., which were hidden from the scanners, Tony bypasses by searching for missing or distorted information in order to track him

I ask because there will be a scaling chain since M.O.D.O.K upgrading his technopaty to hide better and Tony is still bypassing this, then there is Ultron who scale higher and is able to bypass Tony's scanners regardless of the fact that Tony has upgraded his systems multiple times in season 2 and 3

This is for other verse

what happens if a military base has 13 levels of FireWalls and a Virus easily bypassing them, will that Virus be 13-14 layers?

1. I would say no, since it seems like this is using an ability in a different way rather than simply making it stronger. I think you could mention that it ignores conventional resistance to information analysis, but isn't any stronger than normal. Bit of a weird way of putting it but I hope you get the idea.

2. Only if those "levels" actually qualify as layers - for instance, the first level blocks a virus, the second layer can block a virus that bypassed the first level, continuing up until the final level. Otherwise, it wouldn't count.

Guess I'll quickly drop in and post the evidence for Danny Phantom ghosts layered resistance to mind manipulation. Here is the blog I created that is currently on the verse page and being used and was accepted here. It showcases each time the hax is used, resisted and then overcome progressively through the series and has references of when the instances took place.

Seems fine btw

Gonna try and explain the Blazblue layers as best as I can, lots of the explanation revolved around understanding the lore, still in the process of scan collecting for the verse so if some statements or claims aren't fully backed up with scans, I'm still trying to look for them.

TL;DR, Valkenhayn is flat out immune to the effects of Phenomena intervention from a god like Takamagahara, who can use it against a Low 1-C structure like the boundary. In the events of Chronophantasma, there's a PI war going on between Takamagahara and Amaterasu, which affected Valkenhayn, something Rachel found to be unreal. This is mostly to establish that beings that are naturally immune to said abilities can be affected when other knowledgeable members point out the events.

In Central Fiction, the Embryo absorbs all realities into itself to create doomsday, which basically is the apocalypse. The embryo also causes Phenomena intervention on a daily basis due to its mere existence causing it as stated in Xblaze. Doomsday goes beyond even the main BB world as Naoto from a completely different reality was thrown in by Raquel because their world got destroyed by Doomsday. Same with Mu-12, who was thrown into a different reality by Noel and had to come back to the main world via a cauldron, one of the plot points in the series that talks about going through different realities, which atm are all consumed by the embryo. In said reality Mu-12 is in, Valkenhayn is again affected by it despite his immunities to believe Mu-12 is the end of all existence among many others in said reality without the proper defense, so it extends across infinite realities with the Embryo's influence against every version of Valkenhayn, plus the additional feat of Amaterasu's mere presence being able to warp the countless phenomena intervention existences into one (Shiro mentioned the Japanese text says countless and not infinite, but I don't have the JP text to verify it atm). Plus with Observation/PI being able to focus on large scale stuff like timelines or small scale events which focus down into specific individuals, something Rachel herself comments on is something insane on that magnitude of Observation, leads straight into it being the case of "affecting numerous people and focusing into one target for increased power" with increased potency. Especially when in the context a lot of this stems from someone with a natural resistance towards PI in the first place.

So the argument goes like this: Amaterasu (countless) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Embryos (infinite) >>>>>>>>>>>>> Valkenhayn (Low 1-C resistance)

First part is fine.

The second part is where I have an issue. For starters, I'm not sure how the scan you sent shows Valkenhayn being affected by PI? Even so, I'm not sure how this translates into layers. Even if Valkenhayn does get affected by the PI, and this does extend to every version of Valkenhayn in the multiverse, there doesn't seem to be anything to suggest that, say, Valkenhayn 1's resistances are a layer above those of Valkenhayn 2's, repeating ad infinitum, with the Embryo being able to affect all of them. I feel like this is taking a feat of infinite range and extending it to increased hax potency, even though there's not much to suggest that that's actually the case.

I'm also not sure how fusing PI together would qualify as a layer. The scan you sent doesn't seem to mention anything about doing so leading to bypassing resistances, so this seems to be an instance of assuming that an ability being used on an infinitely greater scale is also infinitely layered. Is there any precedence for multiple PIs being used to bypass resistance, with this trend continuing for every PI "stacked" in such a way? If so then you have a case, but for now I'm not really seeing it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

level of potency or layers are irrelevant

I have no idea what your scan is supposed to prove. Are there any other Nasuverse supporters that can comment?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara Everyone being in the embryo would be under the influence of its phenomena intervention, something Rachel points out as being the focal point on why she's the only one in her castle that remembers what happens but valkenhayn doesn't. The argument isn't stemmed from each valkenhayn having a superior resistance to the other version, it's to show that it can affect an infinite number of the person who naturally shrugs off PI on a regular basis, said PI being able to condense to a specific object as there's two different versions of PI, small scale and large scale, and Rachel herself talks about it leads to a large magnitude of power that not even Takamagahara could handle with her comment on Kokonoe. DontTalk mentioned this in one of the old hax number thread where if you can affect a certain number of people, and condense that ability to affect a specific target to increase potency, it would qualify for a stronger hax.

The Embryos are all unaffected by Phenomena intervention from each other, Raquel and Es being prime examples since they can wander around the embryo without any worries of being under its influence. Yes there is, The first stuff you said was fine was Izanami and Takamagahara's PI being used in conjunction with each other to bypass Valkenhayn's resistance as a result of their reality warping war against Amaterasu.

 

[LordGinSama]

Saw someone bring up The Nasuverse so it's time for me to take my leave.


Peace

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I have no idea what your scan is supposed to prove. Are there any other Nasuverse supporters that can comment?

Eresh is supposed to have a much stronger authority in the underworld, to the point that it should be impossible to resist. Yet, tiamat overpowered it despite the disadvantage, due to her superior authority.

 

[Huesito88]

DontTalk mentioned this in one of the old hax number thread where if you can affect a certain number of people, and condense that ability to affect a specific target to increase potency, it would qualify for a stronger hax.

Are you referring to what DontTalk was saying at the end of this thread?

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

So I don’t think Warhammer 40K has many layered hax, most of them either being resistance negation related or something else, but we do have this.

Psykers naturally have power null and they resist their own abilities. Blanks naturally overpower this resistance and nullify the powers of other psychic entities. Tyranids similarly nullify the powers of psychic entities thanks to the Shadow in the Warp. The Emperor, by contrast, has shown himself somewhat resistant to the nullifying power of blanks given he literally surrounds himself with them as they’re members of his personal guard like the Custodes.

Psykers also resist mind manipulation as it’s one of their most basic powers for the same reason listed above. Characters like Ahriman and Magnus can go through these resistances and effect them anyways.

There may be more abilities but these are the main ones I can think of right now. Summary:

• Blanks and Tyranids: 1 Layer Power Null
• Emperor: 1 Layer Power Null Resistance
• Ahriman level psykers and higher: 1 Layer Mind Manipulation

 

[LordGinSama]

Eresh is supposed to have a much stronger authority in the underworld, to the point that it should be impossible to resist. Yet, tiamat overpowered it despite the disadvantage, due to her superior authority.

That's not layer's, that's just another example of a hierarchy.


Do you have actual statements or showing of anyone in the Nasuverse bypassing nigh infinite resistances? Because that sounds like utter horse shit to be frank.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Huesito88 No it was more specifically this comment in this thread here where he talks about it being case by case basis on if it affects potency, and talks about the mind hax gas in of itself not being stronger if it affects one person or 1000 people.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

That's not layer's, that's just another example of a hierarchy.

Layering is the ability to break through resistances to one's ability/hax.

bruh.

Do you have actual statements or showing of anyone in the Nasuverse bypassing nigh infinite resistances? Because that sounds like utter horse shit to be frank.

Touko's mystic eyes do exactly that, ill find a playthrough of mahoyo and send it here

 

[Huesito88]

@Huesito88 No it was more specifically this comment in this thread here where he talks about it being case by case basis on if it affects potency, and talks about the mind hax gas in of itself not being stronger if it affects one person or 1000 people.

He mentions that as well in the thread I posted, anyhow I see.

Edit Fixed the second link

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

timestamps: 50:41,52:45.57:52

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

timestamps: 50:41,52:45.57:52

each one of her mystic eyes also endlessly refracts into an infinite amount of copies, so inf ^ inf

 

[Theglassman12]

@Huesito88 your second link isn't working but thanks for the first one.

 

[SweetDao]

timestamps: 50:41,52:45.57:52

Maybe I'm clinically insane, but why should it be layers instead of just the potency of her eyes? Nowhere in the timestamp you gave (and even in between) does it say that it works as layers. If I missed something, please quote directly the statement that proves your point, maybe I didn't focus enough or something.

The whole point of her eyes is to create as much as needed to bind her opponent, and if you don't have enough energy (which you would certainly not have seeing the descriptions) you will remain bound until she closes her eyes.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Maybe I'm clinically insane, but why should it be layers instead of just the potency of her eyes? Nowhere in the timestamp you gave (and even in between) does it say that it works as layers. If I missed something, please quote directly the statement that proves your point, maybe I didn't focus enough or something.

She intially resists the eyes, but then activates the refraction portion of her ability.

 

[SweetDao]

She intially resists the eyes, but then activates the refraction portion of her ability.

So that's like, one layer at most?

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

So that's like, one layer at most?

not really, no, the maximum limit of the eyes are infinite ^ infinite

 

[LordGinSama]

not really, no, the maximum limit of the eyes are infinite ^ infinite

Yeah I'm not seeing anything that implies infinite layers, let alone a higher level of infinity.


With something like that you'd need much more proof, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence after all. Not just one or two vague scans.

 

[SweetDao]

not really, no, the maximum limit of the eyes are infinite ^ infinite

So it has nothing to do with resistance, then?

If you have 100 in resistance, she'll output idk 10000 to keep you sealed. It increased its potency, it doesn't bypass layers.

 

[KingNanaya]

Maybe I'm clinically insane

you are

 

[LordGinSama]

Also pretty sure that's more like resistance negation, not layers.

 

[SweetDao]

you are

Kindest words he has ever spoken.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

So it has nothing to do with resistance, then?

If you have 100 in resistance, she'll output idk 10000 to keep you sealed. It increased its potency, it doesn't bypass layers.

the base potency is already there, she just multiplies it even more.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So I don’t think Warhammer 40K has many layered hax, most of them either being resistance negation related or something else, but we do have this.

Psykers naturally have power null and they resist their own abilities. Blanks naturally overpower this resistance and nullify the powers of other psychic entities. Tyranids similarly nullify the powers of psychic entities thanks to the Shadow in the Warp. The Emperor, by contrast, has shown himself somewhat resistant to the nullifying power of blanks given he literally surrounds himself with them as they’re members of his personal guard like the Custodes.

Psykers also resist mind manipulation as it’s one of their most basic powers for the same reason listed above. Characters like Ahriman and Magnus can go through these resistances and effect them anyways.

There may be more abilities but these are the main ones I can think of right now. Summary:

• Blanks and Tyranids: 1 Layer Power Null
• Emperor: 1 Layer Power Null Resistance
• Ahriman level psykers and higher: 1 Layer Mind Manipulation

Looks good to me

timestamps: 50:41,52:45.57:52

I already gave my opinion on this before, which is that it seems more like resistance negation than anything.

Eresh is supposed to have a much stronger authority in the underworld, to the point that it should be impossible to resist. Yet, tiamat overpowered it despite the disadvantage, due to her superior authority.

I feel like a lot of context is missing here. I'm really not seeing infinite layers here.

 

[SweetDao]

the base potency is already there, she just multiplies it even more.

The base potency is not enough to bind the girl in front. (Alice was her name, I think?)

Alice resist it, so sure, she gets some sort of resistance to it.

The girl activate her ability and goes from the base potency to an infinite one and completely bypass the resistance of Alice.

I don't see where layers are supposed to be. The explanations with "it will always output more energy" just means "no matter your resistance, it will be stronger."

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I already gave my opinion on this before, which is that it seems more like resistance negation than anything.

Alice was able to resist the eyes for a bit originally, so not really.

However, simply overwhelming something with Hax stronger than what they can resist normally wouldn't qualify.

Layering is the ability to break through resistances to one's ability/hax. Successfully using an ability against a resistant character means that the ability is "layered."

The basic concept is that she's able to amp her mystic eyes to break through resistances an infinite ^ infinite amount of times, as she stacks an infinite amount of mystic eyes, and those eyes begin to create copies, and so on

 

[Rikimarox2]

Can anyone tell me if this character qualifies?

I made a crt long ago, but with new standards, gotta make sure. Basically, there is a Magic parameter in the verse (Has ranks, from F- to SSS+/EX), and it has been shown in verse that if a character has the same magic stat as the opponent, the opponent's hax doesn't work (Shown when some dude tried to fear hax the mc, but the system said that due to having the same rank of magic, his mental barrier (a skill designed to resist mind shenanigans) the fear effects were resisted)

There are also statements where some abilities were stated to straight up not work against dudes who a higher magic stat (As shown when it said that if the opponent has a magic parameter that is higher than the user by like, 1 or 3 points, Invisibility wouldn't work on them.)

Abilities get stronger with higher magic, for the record.

 

[SweetDao]

The basic concept is that she's able to amp her mystic eyes to break through resistances an infinite ^ infinite amount of times, as she stacks an infinite amount of mystic eyes, and those eyes begin to create copies, and so on

Why should amping her eyes gives layers negation and not just giving it more potency?

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

The girl activate her ability and goes from the base potency to an infinite one and completely bypass the resistance of Alice.

it isnt immediately infinite at first

 

[SweetDao]

it isnt immediately infinite at first

Which means... getting stronger means bypassing Alice's resistance. That's seems like the usual "my attack is stronger than what you can resist."

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Why should amping her eyes gives layers negation and not just giving it more potency?

she already bypassed a layer of resistance by a few mystic eyes, if she multiplies the effects by infinity, the effects should be multiplied to that amount, if they manage to resist the effect, it just grows stronger.

(All magi and characters with Magic Circuits have resistance to magical effects that aim to control and create effects within others, by rejecting the effect with magical energy)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

@Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara Everyone being in the embryo would be under the influence of its phenomena intervention, something Rachel points out as being the focal point on why she's the only one in her castle that remembers what happens but valkenhayn doesn't. The argument isn't stemmed from each valkenhayn having a superior resistance to the other version, it's to show that it can affect an infinite number of the person who naturally shrugs off PI on a regular basis, said PI being able to condense to a specific object as there's two different versions of PI, small scale and large scale, and Rachel herself talks about it leads to a large magnitude of power that not even Takamagahara could handle with her comment on Kokonoe. DontTalk mentioned this in one of the old hax number thread where if you can affect a certain number of people, and condense that ability to affect a specific target to increase potency, it would qualify for a stronger hax.

The Embryos are all unaffected by Phenomena intervention from each other, Raquel and Es being prime examples since they can wander around the embryo without any worries of being under its influence. Yes there is, The first stuff you said was fine was Izanami and Takamagahara's PI being used in conjunction with each other to bypass Valkenhayn's resistance as a result of their reality warping war against Amaterasu.

Okay, so Velkenhayn was affected, thanks for clarifying that. My issue stems from how we're taking "affecting infinite people" to mean "infinite layers". And yeah, I'm aware of what DT said. The issue is that I think he's giving an inch and you're taking a mile, since while the hax DO get stronger, I think it ultimately falls onto the verse to show how much stronger the hax get; For example, DT's example is that of a mind-controlling gas. Let's say that it can affect 100,000 people at once. Now, if it were all concentrated on a single target, would that gas have 100,000 layers of potency? I would say no, because there wouldn't be further context showing that to be the case. It's a similar deal with Blazblue, where the AoE of the hax in question is infinite, and can be concentrated into a single point, but we don't really know how many layers that translates to in practice because we only see it bypass one layer at most.

As for Amaterasu, I can see countless layers being a thing for her now that I have a little more context.

 

[SweetDao]

she already bypassed a layer of resistance by a few mystic eyes, if she multiplies the effects by infinity, the effects should be multiplied to that amount, if they manage to resist the effect, it just grows stronger.

Sure, multiplying it would give more potency. The resistance of one mage isn't layered, it's one singular value.

If a mage has 100 in resistance, she'll produce an output of 1000 and bind it.
If a mage has 1000 in resistance, she'll produce an output of 10000 and bind it.
Ad infinitum.
The second mage doesn't have 900 layers above the first one.

It's not her bypassing layers, it's her being always stronger than a singular value.

 

[LordGinSama]

Love how Glass wrote a whole ass Bible for infinite Layers for BlazBlue then you have that one guy who posts 3 sentences and 3 random vague scans for evidence of "infinite Layers."

Agree with BB having legitimate Layers btw.

 

[deonment]

I feel like a lot of context is missing here. I'm really not seeing infinite layers here.

My best guess is that they are attempting to show authority values giving resistance and the ability to bypass such, which is strange as to why they are using that instead of

• "She was still ultimately doomed once the Holy Grail War would be completed and everything besides the winner was to be deleted, so Karna gave her his armor to allow her to return to the real world due to the nature of the sun overwhelming that of the moon" (talk about Karma armor resisting Moon cell)

• "Even if both Quetzalcoatl and Ishtar had their full-powered authorities and the help of any other powers left in Mesopotamia they wouldn't be able to damage Tiamat."

• "Quetzalcoatl boasts a large Magical Energy signal and after having witnessed her levels of Divinity, Jaguar Man seems to be nothing more than a paper tiger in comparison, she is stated multiple times to be the strongest member of the three goddess alliance, far surpassing Ishtar who had manifested as a Pseudo-Servant and Gorgon."

• "Merlin claims they wouldn't stand a chance against her without another servant with at least the same level of divinity. However, because she belongs to the lower grade among the Divine Spirit Servants" (for jaguar man).

• "God Arjuna had obtained an immeasurable amount of divinity and divine authority over the entirety of the Indian Lostbelt. His power was so immense that even Rama's Noble Phantasm posseded little to no effect on him and he easily brushed off its destructive power as seemingly only being "annoying". (Rama have authority).

• "Also, his Authority prevents the Moon Cell from deleting him because his Authority eclipses its own."(Saver)

Someone else can grab the scans proper for such (just ping paul)

 

[SweetDao]

Love how Glass wrote a whole ass Bible for infinite Layers for BlazBlue then you have that one guy who posts 3 sentences and 3 random vague scans for evidence of "infinite Layers."

Agree with BB having legitimate Layers btw.

You're mean, stop.

 

[LordGinSama]

You're mean, stop.

If you want mean @Crabwhale because that lad's insults cut on a spiritual, mental and physical level.