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Having a strong willpower

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SamanPatou

SamanPatou

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I received thr permission to open this thread here
So, currently Willpower Manipulation is used not only to address the power itself, but also as a replacement for "having a strong willpower", and is given to those characters who "only" have a strong willpower butaren't able to manipulate it.
The concept itself of having a strong willpower is a bit all over the place on the wiki, and should be better explained and defined in that or in another page.
I also think that some sort of rule should be made to define what qualifies as "strong willpower" and why characters should have it listed.
What makes characters worthy? Having demonstrated to use it in order to counter a superpower? Or even being particularly determined and focused on something? Like reaching an objective, going through difficulties, being willing to face threats, being charismatic and with a strong personality and stuff like that.
.
 
I actually intended to propose some for of "Supernatural Willpower" like how Supernatural Luck exist. Will post the draft I made here when I can.
Obviously agree with this.
 
Now, what should determine the ability, though? Is it characters that are explicitly shown to have strong Willpower, or just come from a verse where Willpower is frequent and not so special?
For example, Link from The Legend of Zelda is explicitly stated to have immense Willpower, due to the Triforce of Courage. However, a character such as Vegeta from DBZ has shown to have strong enough Willpower to shrug off Mind Control from Babidi, but Willpower and Mental Strength are pretty basic components of a good Fighter in that verse, so he’s not treated as special. Would Link have the Willpower for it, Vegeta have it, neither or both?
 
Vegeta shrugging off Babidi's Mind Control was considered very impressive.

But extreme will power should be given to those who survive things they shouldn't but do because of their will alone.
 
It should include resisting pain, mind control, having your willpower take above your consciousness and things like that yeah.
Not sure about Link having it but Vegeta could. My best example of this power would be Kazuki Hoshino from the Empty Box and the Zeroth Maria; dude won against a beingof sheer power for the equivalent of a lifetime in a "stamina" battle just by being determined af even when he lost language and any form of consciousness.
 
The best example of Willpower that I can think of is Methuselah, probably.

"Possesses incredible willpower (Endured living for many years while his fellow gods died over time due to the lack of mystery surrounding them and he is as unyielding as his parent. Kept on living even after Reinhard attacked him with the light of his Longinuslanze through sheer willpower albeit he lost all of the mystery of his being, and thus his power and immortality, and died shortly afterward anyway)"


I have a question, should this be given to those who embody willpower? Like Mike Carey's Lucifer, for instance?
 
Obviously not really, we don't give characters that embody the "mind" mind manip without content that actually supports such ability, for example.
 
And as I said on the other thread, this ability will be indexed way too arbitrarily, it's not something that can be measured without doing a case by case basis, and even then inconsistencies may arise as it's essencially as variable on portrayal as Stamina, which doesn't have proper measures beyond just listing the respective feats for it out of that.

Overall, this page could be useful to showcase some sort of resistance to abilities that can be bypassed by it on some cases plus a few others depending on what's shown, however, now that I think about it such resistances would be best just being indexed on the respective profile, and maybe even in the Intelligence section as well if needed.

However, if this page is to be made, some basic standard resistances it should grant by default should be added (This isn't exactly a power by itself, so I don't think it can get any use by itself beyond resisting mind-related abilities, which on itself is too minor to potentially just go as "Resistance to Pain (X has a great willpower that allowed it to move on while being on Y status)" or so, as it's also quite feat-dependant on what it would cover, so I would support it not being a needed power page.
 
Antoniofer is probably correct in that estimations of supposedly superhuman willpower would be arbitrary and unreliable.
 
We don't have a measurable metric for Social Influencing or Supernatural Luck either. In fact, I'd argue it is easier to spot a character with extreme willpower over a character with social influencing anyway.
 
Sorry for intruding, I just want to give the best example for this. The most extreme case is probably Amakasu Masahiko or just the entire Senshinkan in general.

Willpower to achieve immeasurable speed, to ressurect, to regen, and to resist basically any hax that exist in the verse. Everything is because of willpower.
 
That sounds more like a verse mechanic, so it would just be indexed, with the respective uses being mentioned on the pages.
Warren, Senshinkan and Shinza are two separate things, if you're going to mix them at least say "Masadaverse".
 
This seems fine; there's a lot of things that could be separated from those "Manipulation" abilities.
 
Sir_Ovens said:
We don't have a measurable metric for Social Influencing or Supernatural Luck either. In fact, I'd argue it is easier to spot a character with extreme willpower over a character with social influencing anyway.
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Well, we would at least have to be very specific with what would be required, or we would encourage our members to place the "Superhuman Willpower" ability in several thousand of them.

However, I do not think that this seems realistic for us to achieve.
 
A lot of characters do have Superhuman Willpower tho. But I think it's just a case of wording tbh.
 
It seems like a too subjective and unnecessary ability to me.
 
We could write a paragraph in the current Willpower page to give at least a definition of what it would be, it's better than nothing and less problematic that an actual page.
 
I suppose, but wouldn't it be off-topic for Willpower Manipulation to suddenly start talking about plain extreme willpower?
 
I feel like it’d be useful, but far from necessary. We already cover how multiple abilities can be resisted by Willpower in their respective pages. Willpower as a whole will be difficult to measure and have to be judged on a case-by-case basis. Unlike Intelligence, Stamina or the likes, Willpower feats are not common, and they range from being as simple as ‘Characters in this verse have to have good willpower as training’ to ‘Characters in this verse have so much Willpower they cannot die unless they will it’.
I feel like it’s far more simple to note whenever an Ability can be resisted by Willpower, in which during vsthreads related to that character, counter arguments can be made for the opponent using Willpower Feats collected by those knowledgable on the character. However, Willpower is simply too variable to properly define for a Powers Page.
 
Antvasima said:
I suppose, but wouldn't it be off-topic for Willpower Manipulation to suddenly start talking about plain extreme willpower?
Click to expand...
Well, it is currently used for that anyway, with the exception that it doesn't have any reason or explanation.
If a new page is too subjective and vague on what defines the power and what are the requirements to have it, we either write something in the current page or remove the power from all the characters that have it on their profile due to them having a strong willpower.
Otherwise, we could rename the entire page to include both the manipulation of willpower and the sheer fact of having a very strong for of it.
 
It's a bad use, TBH, if it's going to remain indexed like that, it deserves its own page.
We don't combine Intelligence with Mind Manip, nor give people vector manipulation just by being able to move, for example.
 
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Well, if we create an extra page, we would have to make it quite specific regarding what does and does not qualify.
 
I rather rewrite Willpower Manipulation as its "current" definition is already covered by Empathic Manipulation.

Now, beyond being unable to measure emotions, I have no real issue with the power, as it can be used for purposes of determinating resistances (in theory, a power in one verse being resisted by willpower may allow a character from another verse to resist it even without feats as long it cover the requeriments, requeriments that may be arbitrary to measure).
 
It could be split in two, maybe, following what Antoniofer said.
Something like type 1 being a strong willpower demonstrated in a way or another, but still inside some "natural" limits, and type 2 as a willpower so strong to be supernatural and grant clear resistances to powers, pain etc...
The requirements for the second type would need a clear instance of this willpower being used for something in-verse.
 
I would avoid dividing into types, plus is not necessary for the willpower to supernatural in order to reduce the effects of few mind based powers (at least not the most mundane ones) or stand against pain.
 
Well, I definitely think that the power should strictly be defined as that it should only be applied for extremely superhuman cases, not all characters who are simply strong-willed by normal standards, as that would likely place it on at least 12,000 profile pages, and turn it pointless and undistinctive.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I definitely think that the power should strictly be defined as that it should only be applied for extremely superhuman cases, not all characters who are simply strong-willed by normal standards, as that would likely place it on at least 12,000 profile pages, and turn it pointless and undistinctive.
Click to expand...
Works.
 
Thank you for the support KLOL and Yuri.
 
That sounds good, the problem is to actually come up with some minimal criteria beyond "Willpower high enought to move while feeling a large amount of pain, shock, etc.", as otherwise we would get into the issue of the criteria being too wide for our purposes.
 
Ovens seems to make a good point.
 
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