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For Your Consideration: A Massive Rework of the Supernatural Willpower Page

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Armorchompy said:
Yeah but I don't think that really changes the issue of "you're making it harder to figure out where any specific feat goes", how am I gonna figure out if someone managed to exceed their physiological limit or not in any specific feat (unless it's super obvious)? Just because you add more details it doesn't make it easier to pick, in fact the fact that you're splitting the power into multiple categories makes it harder.

Also I noticed this specific bit, two things:
1) Random asked me to comment, i literally wouldn't have even seen this otherwise and I would have just gone on with my life without giving a shit
2) If you're gonna keep taking my disagreement in bad faith and imply I'm biased I'm gonna stop making the effort to try and see your perspective, dig in my heels and force you to try and get other staff, since I don't really have much love for that kind of accusation and I don't exactly get paid to sit here and listen to it
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I wasn't aware that Random specifically invited you in, personally as you were in that original thread and would take a lot of convincing I believe it would be preferable for all if this thread had been given time to progress and for more perspectives and changes to come in. I'll defend the draft when I feel it's correct, but fact of the matter is it's a draft, not a final version, and thus needs review and improvement; shouldn't be going straight to showing it off to someone who has reason to doubt it's viability and necessity.

I'm sorry and will retract my accusation, as you being upset by it is sufficient to make it clear it was made in error. I hope we can drop this particular sticking point in the conversation and move on from it. If you find it best to leave the conversation, though, I understand.
 
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I also personally think the page should clarify and differentiate between supernaturally strong willpower vs willpower based abilities, as people tend to lump them together

For example Green Lantern's ring shouldn't have supernatural willpower just because willpower is included in doing supernatural things, the ability should come from having strong enough willpower to do supernatural things and from what I know the ring only uses ones willpower to do stuff even if it isn't particular strong but I could be wrong tho, don't have too much knowledge about that but you get the point I think

Could be like a small note or small explanation in the texts
 
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Armorchompy said:
In some situations sure but not only are there more factors to consider than that (if someone is fighting they'd pass out faster)
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In which case them failing to pass out after minutes of fighting would give them more solid grounds for SW
Armorchompy said:
a lot of feats just can't have that sort of analysis done.
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Some of them, sure. In others, it would be difficult, and in others perhaps approaching it from different angles could provide a solution to problems with measuring it. In addition, it doesn't always need to be strict quantification, it can be "you know it when you see it" qualification. If a character achieves something through force of will that there's no precedent for a person being able to replicate irl, that's still as valid a method of attributing SW as it ever was.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
May need to take a look at this later. This is a lot to read and not yet understand what the OP is proposing.
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In short:
The current Supernatural Willpower is brief to the point of its own detriment and thus brings about vagueness and confusion at times, especially regarding less dramatic examples of the power and whether they even qualify.

Thus I decided to revamp it with a draft that sorts much of the most common and notable versions of the ability into types for the sake of easier organization, including a couple weaker Types that serve as somewhat of a baseline to help clear up some of the vagueness between extreme displays of will irl and lower-end displays of Supernatural Willpower. Also added an "Other" Type, since there's a lot of subjectivity in how willpower is regarded, and therefore extreme willpower shows up in fiction all the time in different ways.
 
MonkeyOfLife said:
I also personally also think the page should clarify and differentiate between supernaturally strong willpower vs willpower based abilities, as people tend to lump them together

For example Green Lantern's ring shouldn't have supernatural willpower just because willpower is included in doing supernatural things, the ability should come from having strong enough willpower to do supernatural things and from what I know the ring only uses ones willpower to do stuff even if it isn't particular strong but I could be wrong tho, don't have too much knowledge about that but you get the point I think

Could be like a small note or small explanation in the texts
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Iirc one of the Green Lanterns matched the collective will of the entire rest of the universe in one story, so their P&As may not be changed so much with a SW overhaul. Good catch regardless tho.

For example, Force Users gotta exert some amount of will to use their thought based abilities, but they're not portrayed as using inhuman levels of mental fortitude to do it though, it's more a matter of belief and perspective iirc. Plus some people in the setting who don't have SW can resist their mind manip
 
SheevShezarrine said:
I wasn't aware that Random specifically invited you in, personally as you were in that original thread and would take a lot of convincing I believe it would be preferable for all if this thread had been given time to progress and for more perspectives and changes to come in. I'll defend the draft when I feel it's correct, but fact of the matter is it's a draft, not a final version, and thus needs review and improvement; shouldn't be going straight to showing it off to someone who has reason to doubt it's viability and necessity.

I'm sorry and will retract my accusation, as you being upset by it is sufficient to make it clear it was made in error. I hope we can drop this particular sticking point in the conversation and move on from it. If you find it best to leave the conversation, though, I understand.
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Yeah, Supernatural Willpower sounds like something with the same occurring issues of Supernatural Luck in which it's often given to characters who don't really qualify. Having really good willpower doesn't grant it unless there is some lore related details in which sheer willpower has granted someone to resist a lot of supernatural powers.

Though I agree with ArmorChompy on some points that making several different types is a bit much. We just need to elaborate what supernatural willpower is and just natural willpower isn't really an ability much like just being really lucky but nothing suggests the luck being supernatural would not grant supernatural luck.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Yeah, Supernatural Willpower sounds like something with the same occurring issues of Supernatural Luck in which it's often given to characters who don't really qualify. Having really good willpower doesn't grant it unless there is some lore related details in which sheer willpower has granted someone to resist a lot of supernatural powers.

Though I agree with ArmorChompy on some points that making several different types is a bit much. We just need to elaborate what supernatural willpower is and just natural willpower isn't really an ability much like just being really lucky but nothing suggests the luck being supernatural would not grant supernatural luck.
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I feel that sorting with types gives a more comprehensive idea of the versatility and variability of the power, makes it easier to wrap one's head around fringe and weird uses of the power by having types to compare and contrast it with, and in cases where a character gains many different powers and abilities from their force of will, it helps keep those powers and abilities more neatly organized instead of being spread all across a massive P&A block, and also keeps the page writer(s) from having to reiterate about the character's Supernatural Willpower when explaining why they're attributed said powers and how they work.
 
SheevShezarrine said:
In which case them failing to pass out after minutes of fighting would give them more solid grounds for SW

Some of them, sure. In others, it would be difficult, and in others perhaps approaching it from different angles could provide a solution to problems with measuring it. In addition, it doesn't always need to be strict quantification, it can be "you know it when you see it" qualification. If a character achieves something through force of will that there's no precedent for a person being able to replicate irl, that's still as valid a method of attributing SW as it ever was.
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I'm sure you can do it but I still think it's making things harder, I respect the effort you went into and think some of it can be utilized but I just don't see any purpose in "peak human" willpower other than making things messier.
 
Armorchompy said:
I'm sure you can do it but I still think it's making things harder, I respect the effort you went into and think some of it can be utilized but I just don't see any purpose in "peak human" willpower other than making things messier.
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"Peak human" is intended less as a rating or ability in itself, and more as basically a kinda nebulous high end to what irl willpower can achieve before hitting the hard-cap limits of human physiology, such as blood loss and dehydration. If it's better off axed from the draft though, it's fine with me, as the main issue with realistic vs supernatural willpower is determining a definite cut-off point between the two to make discerning less blatant forms of SW easier
 
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Just so y'all know, I will be afk for the rest of day at a concert, and will be returning home really late and headed right to sleep. Continued discussion on the validity, usability, and revision of the draft is welcome, but please don't make any pushes either to discard or accept the draft for the next 18 hours or so, when I'll again be present to discuss the issues.
 
SheevShezarrine said:
"Peak human" is intended less as a rating or ability in itself, and more as basically a kinda nebulous high end to what irl willpower can achieve before hitting the hard-cap limits of human physiology, such as blood loss and dehydration. If it's better off axed from the draft though, it's fine with me, as the main issue with realistic vs supernatural willpower is determining a definite cut-off point between the two to make discerning less blatant forms of SW easier
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I think it's better to fuse that into SW, ultimately it's the kinda ability that should be judged by showings anyways so adding that split doesn't do much good imo.

For the record I don't exactly have a hard reason against the types, I'm not convinced of their usefulness but I'm more neutral than against in that regard.
 
Armorchompy said:
I think it's better to fuse that into SW, ultimately it's the kinda ability that should be judged by showings anyways so adding that split doesn't do much good imo.

For the record I don't exactly have a hard reason against the types, I'm not convinced of their usefulness but I'm more neutral than against in that regard.
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I'm fine with having it as a sub-ability on the SW page, as extreme will irl can indeed sway the outcome of a fight, but I feel that having the split aids in getting across that SW in all its forms (even comparatively minor forms like trudging on even after collapsing from severe hypothermia and not warming back up) is indeed supernatural, and noteworthy to the extent that it warrants a page instead of a note in the stamina and/or standard tactics section, which was the fate of almost all SW showings before the current page was put up. As for judging by showings, you'll hear no disagreement from me on that, I'm simply of the mind that quantifying when possible helps determine if the qualities of a showing are sufficient to attribute the ability.

Personally I feel that having the types would make it easier to get an idea of the extent of a character's SW potency and how it operates, which I could see being pretty handy due to the sheer and varied scope of the ability, and in cases where force of will is major part of a verse's power system, like in Persona/SMT. For example, regen and immortality (which like a lot of versions of SW are powers where the main point is that they make a character that has them harder to kill) are also varied and wide in scope, and thus have types/ratings that make sorting out characters with said powers by function and potency easier and more precise to do
 
Armorchompy said:
I'm sure you can do it but I still think it's making things harder, I respect the effort you went into and think some of it can be utilized but I just don't see any purpose in "peak human" willpower other than making things messier.
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reading back through the draft I do find myself in agreement that the section on "peak human" willpower muddles the page quite a bit and very unnecessarily, and perhaps would be better suited if it were totally restructured into something meant to be more illustrative of what doesn't qualify for SW
 
Should I add "peak human" willpower as something like a Type 0, where it doesn't qualify as true SW but functions as a sub-type, seeing as SW is inspired by it and "peak human" is capable of swaying the outcome of a fight? Or would it be better to give it it's own small section that details what it can and can't do?
 
SheevShezarrine said:
Should I add "peak human" willpower as something like a Type 0, where it doesn't qualify as true SW but functions as a sub-type, seeing as SW is inspired by it and "peak human" is capable of swaying the outcome of a fight? Or would it be better to give it it's own small section that details what it can and can't do?
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My opinion doesn't hold the most weight, but I think the former might be best.
 
I've added some slight cleanup and elaboration to the draft, waiting on input from Armor and/or Medeus before I tackle the "peak human" willpower section
 
Armorchompy said:
I disagree with having types, it's just complicating a fairly simple ability. I can see the purpose for it though. What I more staunchly disagree with is the concept of "peak human" willpower, that is completely impossible to define, you rightfully say that it's difficult to tell what is or isn't superhuman willpower, but by applying this you make the issue much worse.
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I also think that it seems very hard to draw some kind of exactly determined line of distinction between high but realistic and superhuman degrees of willpower.
 
Antvasima said:
I also think that it seems very hard to draw some kind of exactly determined line of distinction between high but realistic and superhuman degrees of willpower.
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A line can be determined to varying levels of certainty by basing it off of what is possible for the various systems that sustain the human form to withstand. For example, the amount of blood loss one can withstand, or how long they can go without water in a certain environment, or what level of unconsciousness one can snap awake from unassisted. If one withstands strain on those systems that would be impossible for them to withstand irl, then that crosses from extreme but realistic into the bounds of supernatural
 
Well, I do not at all mind if we expand on our Supernatural Willpower page to include good examples of upper human limits and what would and would not qualify, but there is a risk that a very large part of all our characters pages would receive the ability too easily if all that is needed for it is to be beyond human limits. We should preferably reserve it for very extreme cases.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I do not at all mind if we expand on our Supernatural Willpower page to include good examples of upper human limits and what would and would not qualify, but there is a risk that a very large part of all our characters pages would receive the ability too easily if all that is needed for it is to be beyond human limits. We should preferably reserve it for very extreme cases.
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I disagree that the risk is overly vast. Same as how in the wider scheme of things there's relatively few characters that just barely meet the requirements of Superhuman Physical Characteristics, there would be relatively few that just barely meet the requirements of Supernatural Willpower, as in each case there's simply so much upwards wiggle room that those lowest bounds most often get left in the dust -- even by "peak humans" (such as Batman, John Wick, James Bond, The Punisher, and many others in the case of Supe Stats)

And tbh, to be beyond human/irl limits is practically the definition of supernatural, so saving the label of "supernatural" for showings that are basically super-duper-natural is scrutinous to a bit of an excessive degree imho
 
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Which staff members think what here so far?
 
Armorchompy said:
i'm neutral-ish on the types i just disagreed with "peak human" WP
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Ok, regarding it should I rework the section into something that spells out what high irl WP is capable of/what are impressive showings of WP that don't qualify for SW?
 
No, this involves a broad revision that applies to every profile that listed the ability 'willpower.' Only admins have voting permissions, bureau voting rights, and veto rights. Therefore, your input certainly holds significance, as it's equivalent to any other staff role with the exception of higher ranked-ups.

This is the reason it is moved to staff discussion.

Sorry for my comment, but I need to clear up this misconception and keep staff members reminded of new changes.
 
I mentioned my thoughts but not sure what else I need to say.
 
I'm not fond of Peak Human willpower and while I don't much think the types are needed (honestly I think common sense would tell you what would count as Supernatural Willpower) but I guess they are fine... The overall general update is ok with me in the end from what I can see at least.
 
Antvasima said:
@Agnaa

Are any of you willing to help evaluate this thread please?
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I currently have 54 threads in my "to-evaluate" backlog, I've added this to the list, and will get to it eventually.
 
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