About Goku and Mind Control

[Magicomethkuon]

Agree:
Disagree: 3 (3 staff votes) @Damage3245 , @LephyrTheRevanchist , @UchihaSlayer96
Neutral:

At the moment, Goku has no indexed resistance to Mind Control.

However, Goku's Supernatural Willpower has been acknowledged because he has survived the Ultra Divine Water (and endures the use of Kaio-Ken as well, although this is a lesser example). Also magical, this water will kill anyone who lacks a strong willpower even if they are experts in the martial arts, supporting that knowledge of ki alone isn't enough to survive it. All the people before Goku who tried the water were masters of the martial arts. All died.

Supernatural Willpower (Able to endure poison that takes immense will and spirit to survive. Being able to use Kaioken far beyond King Kai's capability which can heavily damage and destroy the user's body)

Fast-forward to the future and through sheer willpower, Vegeta has resisted Babidi's mind control. This is also acknowledged here and in further support of that, Vegeta was only manipulated to become a Majin because he allowed it to happen to better fight Goku.

Mind Manipulation (Vegeta was able to overpower Babidi's hold on his mind through sheer willpower)

In conclusion: Unless it is the case that Babidi's mind control is layered, by comparison of feats Goku's displays of supernatural willpower should be at least equal to Vegeta's, and he should be able to replicate the same feat of resistance. The franchise has shown that such Willpower element is what gives the way to the feat, and Goku has it. Thoughts?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Well, this should be interesting. It really depends on how Supernatural Willpower is defined as a power and to me it seems a bit unclear. I'd raise that via the same arguments that Freeza should also have resistance to Mind Manipulation via his own Supernatural Willpower:

Supernatural Willpower (Survived several years of torture in hell without moving a single muscle and still managed to keep himself sane),

I'm going to remain neutral until I see what others say.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not in favor of adding Resistance to Mind Control to Goku without any feats on Goku's behalf.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I have to agree with Damage. We don't usually cross-scale resistances based on Willpower without very good reason.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

I'm not in favor of adding Resistance to Mind Control to Goku without any feats on Goku's behalf.

I have to agree with Damage. We don't usually cross-scale resistances based on Willpower without very good reason.

But the feat is there, it's a simple process of indirect correlation. Surviving the water took supernatural willpower. Vegeta's resistance as well, took supernatural willpower.

The only thing that really changes here is what they're needing the will to deny, but the factor of resistance is determined by that will. I'd call it less cross-scaling and more of a logical conclusion by comparison of feats.

 

[Damage3245]

One person's supernatural willpower doesn't necessarily = another person's supernatural willpower.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

But the feat is there, it's a simple process of indirect correlation. Surviving the water took supernatural willpower. Vegeta's resistance as well, took supernatural willpower.

The only thing that really changes here is what they're needing the will to deny, but the factor of resistance is determined by that will. I'd call it less cross-scaling and more of a logical conclusion by comparison of feats.

Yes, but can you prove that surviving the water and resisting the mind control both require the same level of willpower?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'm not in favor of adding Resistance to Mind Control to Goku without any feats on Goku's behalf.

Absolutely agreed

 

[Maitreya12]

I'm not in favor of adding Resistance to Mind Control to Goku without any feats on Goku's behalf.

I have to agree with Damage. We don't usually cross-scale resistances based on Willpower without very good reason.

Yeah I’m kind of in agreement in this case here.

I understand it may be “weird” for Vegeta to have mind hax resistance while Goku doesn’t, but it also needs to be remembered that Vegeta countering Babadi’s mind manip was through his own personal feelings of inferiority over Goku and the rage he was feeling over it. If Goku was mind controlled by Babadi, he wouldn’t have that same drive that Vegeta had over his wounded pride which can definitely be the factor that allowed Vegeta to resist said mind hax.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yeah I’m kind of in agreement in this case here.

I understand it may be “weird” for Vegeta to have mind hax resistance while Goku doesn’t, but it also needs to be remembered that Vegeta countering Babadi’s mind manip was through his own personal feelings of inferiority over Goku and the rage he was feeling over it. If Goku was mind controlled by Babadi, he wouldn’t have that same drive that Vegeta had over his wounded pride which can definitely be the factor that allowed Vegeta to resist said mind hax.

Adding the fact that Babidi's mind control has a specific caveat

What he's doing is amplifying the evil within a person's heart, is not a normal mind control in the first place. These are different feats of willpower that are being correlated.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

One person's supernatural willpower doesn't necessarily = another person's supernatural willpower.

I agree with this thought, which is why I have brought both of their feats to the table. There is no reason to claim that Babidi's attempt at control would be harder to deny with will than being made to die.

Yes, but can you prove that surviving the water and resisting the mind control both require the same level of willpower?

Because neither of these cases are layered in nature. Between needing willpower so you aren't made into a puppet, and needing willpower so you don't die, outside of layered resistances they would each have one layer and be about equal in scale.

 

[Damage3245]

The cases being "layered" or not has nothing to do with whether or not we should assume they're equal.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Adding the fact that Babidi's mind control has a specific caveat

What he's doing is amplifying the evil within a person's heart, is not a normal mind control in the first place. These are different feats of willpower that are being correlated.

The argument being made is that both of them are reliant on the exact same source, which Goku has already been accepted to have.

The cases being "layered" or not has nothing to do with whether or not we should assume they're equal.

Nonetheless Damage, this line of thinking does seem to assume that Vegeta's feat had fundamentally higher scale, if Goku having supernatural willpower of his own still is treated as though he shouldn't be able to replicate a feat of resistance that needs supernatural willpower to be achieved.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Surviving the Ultra Divine Water, which requires will, spirit, and stamina, and bypassing Babidi's control over his heart's evil via sheer pride are inequivalent. The former is a feat of exceeding one's physical and mental limitations—endurance—and the latter is overriding an external force with one's will.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

besides goku doesn't even have evil so this point is kinda moot

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Surviving the Ultra Divine Water, which requires will, spirit, and stamina, and bypassing Babidi's control over his heart's evil via sheer pride are inequivalent. The former is a feat of exceeding one's physical and mental limitations—endurance—and the latter is overriding an external force with one's will.

This argument is quite the foreign standard. From my perspective, it feels the same as being told that a knife which cuts paper wouldn't be able to cut butter.

besides goku doesn't even have evil so this point is kinda moot

It's less about the evil and more about what the possibilities of willpower in general have been shown to achieve in the franchise. I personally don't see how willpower can't be related across characters in this way (in the vacuum of greater proof that one feat is fundamentally better than the other). But if those are the standards, that's that.

 

[Damage3245]

Nonetheless Damage, this line of thinking does seem to assume that Vegeta's feat had fundamentally higher scale, if Goku having supernatural willpower of his own still is treated as though he shouldn't be able to replicate a feat of resistance that needs supernatural willpower to be achieved.

No, it doesn't.

It means avoiding the assumption that they must be the same.

You're making more assumptions than I am.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

No, it doesn't.

It means avoiding the assumption that they must be the same.

You're making more assumptions than I am.

Not really, my only assumption is that they are comparable in scale of feats (and thus could be correlated). The analogy of the knife that I presented above is a good way to express what I'm getting at. But likewise and as I have already added, the opposing pov appears to be the one in line with the standards of this forums in such situations (said standard being, <<these feats cannot be compared>>). I had nodded along at the time when I said, I guess that's that in response to Null.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Do you mind if this thread is closed then, @Magicomethkuon? Since you acknowledge the rejection.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Do you mind if this thread is closed then, @Magicomethkuon? Since you acknowledge the rejection.

Yes, feel free to close it. Thank you for the feedback and clarifications, regardless.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Thank you for understanding. Closing.