For Your Consideration: A Massive Rework of the Supernatural Willpower Page

[SheevShezarrine]

Disagree with the idea in general, I think it's better to leave it typeless. Overcomplication is not an improvement.

A number and a brief explanation is less complicated than doing all the explaining in parentheses on the profile and then having that explanation sometimes not even cover all of the abilities they get from SW (cough Kratos)

 

[SheevShezarrine]

I'm not fond of Peak Human willpower and while I don't much think the types are needed (honestly I think common sense would tell you what would count as Supernatural Willpower) but I guess they are fine... The overall general update is ok with me in the end from what I can see at least.

The peak human is being axed in favor of a section covering what doesn't qualify for SW but is still impressive and might sway a fight if it's something like a haxless bar brawl. The types are less to describe what is SW and more to give a quick description of what a character's brand of SW can do, since there's a pretty hefty amount of variety in the ability

 

[Mr. Bambu]

A number and a brief explanation is less complicated than doing all the explaining in parentheses on the profile and then having that explanation sometimes not even cover all of the abilities they get from SW (cough Kratos)

Not every verse uses Supernatural Willpower as a source of abilities. D&D doesn't, shit's just a boost to their literal Willpower stat (resistances). In expanding it, you limit something that I don't feel needs limited in this way. So I still vote no.

 

[Antvasima]

Disagree with the idea in general, I think it's better to leave it typeless. Overcomplication is not an improvement.

I currently agree with this.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Not every verse uses Supernatural Willpower as a source of abilities. D&D doesn't, shit's just a boost to their literal Willpower stat (resistances). In expanding it, you limit something that I don't feel needs limited in this way. So I still vote no.

Not every verse does, true, but some do, and then there's others where it's just an ability in itself but differs significantly from other verses' takes on it, and the types were made largely to address the latter, and also the former though to a lesser extent. There's so much variety in SW across fiction, and the types were added to more directly address that variability on the PnA page itself, which I believe to be proper.

Referring to DnD, your take is fair, but their presence on the page is due more to Tarrasque being able to say "lol nah" to probability and make a failed roll succeed just by willing it so, Empyreans being able to do the same to attacks that bypasses their resistances, and SR users such as Sertrous, Asmodeus, and others being able to just force Holy power to manifest through their sheer will and belief, no divine intervention required. And besides, depending on the resistance, Willpower could fall under SW. Irl, there's things you simply can't will yourself through, such as being inundated with a lethal poison. I am admittedly a newbie to DnD lore and mechanics as well as to the game itself, though, so if you were to tell me those abilities are at most only tangentially tied to their force of will and explain why, I probably won't fight you on it.

And I have no intent to limit SW. I want to further explain what it's shown to be capable of across fiction, which if anything is the opposite. The types aren't some be-all-end-all, they are a compilation of similar expressions of the ability, done so for the sake of brevity and to better codify an ability that is very often subject to the subjectivity of the authors that implement it into their works. That subjectivity is somewhat poorly tackled by the current page, which is one of the shortest and vaguest PnA pages on the wiki.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

None of the examples you listed from DnD are why they have Supernatural Will, but that doesn't really matter.

Supernatural Willpower doesn't need to be made into an exhaustive list of everything Willpower has ever allowed every character to do- to do so creates an impossible task. It is also impossible to tackle what is most core to it, since practically no abilities are actually at the core of Supernatural Willpower. We would need too many types to be reasonable, one feels. My vote stands.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

None of the examples you listed from DnD are why they have Supernatural Will, but that doesn't really matter.

I'm aware, tbh I just ignored Iron Will and went looking for characters that give the finger to the rules of the game and warped them just by being stubborn enough

Supernatural Willpower doesn't need to be made into an exhaustive list of everything Willpower has ever allowed every character to do- to do so creates an impossible task. It is also impossible to tackle what is most core to it, since practically no abilities are actually at the core of Supernatural Willpower. We would need too many types to be reasonable, one feels. My vote stands.

I won't argue that making an exhaustive list of everything SW has ever facilitated is a fool's errand, and I agree that there is no core to SW, save for one being notably stubborn. However, generalization is entirely possible, and imho is viable. For example, if we were to really dig into the minutae of Immortality, and further separate the types (for example, splitting Type 8 by the various possible tethers such as objects, concepts, locations), it would be equally impossible to make an exhaustive list, as immortality is just as prolific throughout fiction as extreme willpower is, both being prevalent even in the oldest tales of humanity's collective lexicon. Thus, we generalized for that ability, and I'm proposing we do the same for SW. The types in the SW draft are also generalizations, based on some of the most common and notable iterations of it, with an "Other" Type added for good measure. As for the ability page having too many types to be reasonable, it currently has 2 fewer types than Immortality, and 5 fewer than Regeneration; I don't see the types sections surpassing a reasonable length, even if significantly expanded, which it may or may not be.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Bump

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Added some further elaboration on Type 1 and 2, unprompted though it may be. Will be tackling removal/overhaul of the "peak human" willpower section sometime in the next few hours or so

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Hasn't this thread been rejected?

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Hasn't this thread been rejected?

The idea of types has largely been rejected thus far, but reworking the current page seems to have near-unanimous agreement, so the specifics of that still need to be hashed out.
Still waiting to continue discussing with Bambu and continue making a case for the currently-rejected types proposition, as well (assuming he hasn't used his Type 6 SW to Law Manip me into being physically and metaphysically incapable of interacting with him)

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I think making improvements to the page should be fine.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Bump?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

The idea of types has largely been rejected thus far, but reworking the current page seems to have near-unanimous agreement, so the specifics of that still need to be hashed out.
Still waiting to continue discussing with Bambu and continue making a case for the currently-rejected types proposition, as well (assuming he hasn't used his Type 6 SW to Law Manip me into being physically and metaphysically incapable of interacting with him)

@Mr._Bambu

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I had considered this thread rejected, yeah. I appreciate the effort being made but SW is an ability with too broad a list of potential applications that categorizing it effectively opens us up to very easily missing things that would then, of course, require at least one more type. Few abilities actually require concrete "types"- most of them can simply be explained in their profiles. It is my firm belief that Supernatural Willpower is one of those.

I do not want this thread to die off senselessly, there's been a good enough amount of discussion: minute changes and adjustments to the page have been approved, I'd like to see that finished, but I have little else to say on the matter of adding types to Supernatural Willpower.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I had considered this thread rejected, yeah. I appreciate the effort being made but SW is an ability with too broad a list of potential applications that categorizing it effectively opens us up to very easily missing things that would then, of course, require at least one more type. Few abilities actually require concrete "types"- most of them can simply be explained in their profiles. It is my firm belief that Supernatural Willpower is one of those.

I do not want this thread to die off senselessly, there's been a good enough amount of discussion: minute changes and adjustments to the page have been approved, I'd like to see that finished, but I have little else to say on the matter of adding types to Supernatural Willpower.

What "minute changes and adjustments" were approved? I'd like to get them applied so we can close this.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

What "minute changes and adjustments" were approved? I'd like to get them applied so we can close this.

@Mr._Bambu

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Mr._Bambu

This thread generally supports improving on the page. Now, currently, the draft doesn't do much in this regard, rather offering to expand on the page by adding types. If the blog were updated to reflect this approved tidying-up, then it would be acceptable.

Given, however, that it's been a few days and nothing's been done towards that end, it's probably just fine to close this and move on so I can stop being pinged regarding a topic I thought was finished.