Has The Great ZZ's post been addressed?

[LoudCloud]

@LoudCloud
This

It wasn't until the Triforce of Power showed in his hand that he recovered. And in Ocarina of Time is the same when his castle crumbled and buried him. He survived that even after a battle with Link. (Not even Demise recovered from a battle with Link, and certainly didn't recover when the island of the Goddess was dropped ontop of him, tho' you could say The Imprisoned is weaker than him, but I can argue it isn't since Link needed to wish he's destruction using the Triforce).

Yeah, the Zelda wikia sites some sources on the Triforce of Power/Courage/Wisdom giving the users boosts. But the type of boost will depend and is not exclusively an AP boost. Power gives actual power and some other techniques, Wisdom gives actual wisdom and some other (magic) techniques and Courage gives actual courage and some other techniques. Power is the only one confirmed to give what could be perceived as an actual AP boost.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

So... What is the final conclusion? I think every point has been "tackled", it just that, to summarize, what are going to be the changes?

 

[LoudCloud]

There hasn't really been a response from the real cal howard on my points yet.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I know... But college is hard, @LC. Coming up with responses/arguments isn't exactly easy when you have tests and essays on your schedule.

 

[LoudCloud]

I got the impression that my claims being taken seriously was dependant on your response to them for some reason. I guess other people will discuss it then.

 

[Antvasima]

I will message ThePerpetual about this thread.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Didn't we have two 700+ response thread on this issue ?

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

Yes, and it's utter nonsense to think that an old ritual mask is stronger than an "omnipotent" relic handed down by the Goddesses of the verse from creation.

 

[Antvasima]

I also find this unlikely, yes.

 

[LoudCloud]

Yes, and it's utter nonsense to think that an old ritual mask is stronger than an "omnipotent" relic handed down by the Goddesses of the verse from creation.

No one compared the full Triforce to Majora. What are you talking about?

And yeah, let's downplay something by attaching it to mundane terms. This is exactly what the blog post I shared talked about:

"Joking aside, Hulk gets his powers from a nuke and he can hold planets together. Your origins and what you are don't determine how powerful you are in fiction, and honestly it's embarrassing that I even have to explain this."

 

[LoudCloud]

Just a re-cap of the arguments I or/and the blog presented:

- Majora not being multi-continent or more.

False. It makes complete sense.

- Base (young) Link not scaling to Majora.

Not debunked as Hyrule Historia claimed he needed the Fierce Deity Mask to defeat Majora and all other circumstances show Link being stomped by Majora.

- Ganondorf not scaling to Majora.

Not debunked either as there's no hard evidence they do. Link needing the Fierce Deity Mask to defeat Majora but defeating Ganon by himself supports this.

- The three Triforce pieces not giving a power boost.

Sorta false. They each give some sort of specific boost (eg. secret techniques, magic, resistance to some magic types) according to Twilight Princess and A Link to the Past, but the Triforce of power being the only one known to give a boost in actual power.

- Characters should not scale to full Triforce wielders unless the full Triforce is actually used.

Not debunked. The full Triforce is a one-use wish granter, so unless the wielder asked for a wish during the fight, it's not been used and therefore nobody scales. For example, ALTTP Link won't scale to the full Triforce because Ganon never used it during their fight (it was too far away).

- Faron's calc making too many wild assumptions.

This one's not been discussed yet, so I'm considering it not debunked yet.

- Demise not being actual Planet-level

False. The Japanese translation pretty much confirms it is literal.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally think that LoudCloud mostly seems to make sense, but ThePerpetual does not seem to reply, which creates a problem.

 

[Cropfist]

ThePerpetual has stated he has no more interest in debating Legend of Zelda.

 

[ThePerpetual]

It's been a while since this was addressed... I'll be busy for a little bit longer, but I'll be back for this.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thanks.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

Yes, and it's utter nonsense to think that an old ritual mask is stronger than an "omnipotent" relic handed down by the Goddesses of the verse from creation.

No one compared the full Triforce to Majora. What are you talking about?
And yeah, let's downplay something by attaching it to mundane terms. This is exactly what the blog post I shared talked about:

"Joking aside, Hulk gets his powers from a nuke and he can hold planets together. Your origins and what you are don't determine how powerful you are in fiction, and honestly it's embarrassing that I even have to explain this."

A single piece of the triforce should be stronger than the Fierce Diety Mask. This has already been discussed at length in two 700+ comment threads.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, they likely had over 700 comments taken together, not by themselves.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Still, it's a bit tiring on the eyes and mind to see something that's been resolved in 2 separate threads brought up again

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yes, specially since the triforce of courage did absolutely NOTHING in that game. And yes, Hyrule Historia confirms that Link still has it during the events of Majora.

 

[LoudCloud]

So why exactly is a piece of the triforce (which doesn't always effect AP as we discussed) superior to the Fierce Deity Mask?

If we can come up with a summation of it that holds true you could include it in Link's profile as a note.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'm gonna remain neutral so far, as coming up with a response/rebuttal takes way too much time that I don't have, but the assumption that the ToC raises nothing but courage is completely asinine, given that brings absolutely nothing to the table when fighting multi continental at least demon lords.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@Cal

The Link from Skyward didn't have the triforce or a piece of it when fighting Demise, who's (still, in my opinion, questionably) a Planet Level. That point is invalid. Now, does it raise other things apart from courage (which, by the way, is also invalid, given that you have to be courageous to get it in the first way)? Absolutely, but we don't have an example nor 100% proof of it, so anything we may think is pure speculation.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

For starters, I'm not even talking about Skyward!Link. You're implying that a piece of a powerful relic, the one that belongs to the main protag nonetheless, gives zero benefits that don't fall under speculation.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Tell me one with proof, then. If is not speculation, you could give one.

The point about Skyward Link is because of this line in your comment: "...given that brings absolutely nothing to the table when fighting multi continental at least demon lords."

That comment implies that Link needs a boost from the triforce of courage to do that, and I gave an example that it doesn't.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I can't give something. But even if I did give speculation, it's better than the idea that the ToC is powerless until proven powerful. It's like if I said that the Super Dragon Balls can only restore planets because it wasn't proven to do otherwise.

Reason I brought that up is that the other two give quite obvious boosts. The only thing the ToC has ever done is prevent Link from being turned into a soul, and that's not even unique to the ToC.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I know that it obviously gives a boost of sorts. That is what I said in my first response, and in another comment gave my own interpration of what boosts that piece gives. The problem is that we can't confirm any of it, which it then falls under speculation.

 

[LoudCloud]

It really comes down to burden of proof; the ToP is the only that mentions a boost in direct AP/Durabilty, and the fact it's the piece associated with actual power gives us more reason to doubt that the other pieces can offer the same perks.

The only boosts mentioned/hinted at for the other pieces is a boost in wisdom and magic for the ToW (which makes sense since in fantasy wise characters tend to be the ones with powerful magic) and a boost in courage and resistance to dark magic for the ToC (which also makes sense since resistance to evil magic in fantasy is often associated with someone's willpower).

 

[Dark649]

Zelda Breath of the Wild has been released, maybe it will upgrade the verse and give some explanations about the triforce and its pieces (I hardly believe about these, but i will search for informations).

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@LC

That about resistance to dark magic should give a more concrete evidence of how not even the triforce can compare to Majora, since it pretty much screw Link while he had the ToC. To avoid more skepticism in this topic, could you provide an oficial scan where it says that the ToC give that kind of protection?

Edit: I'm not saying the "full" Triforce, obviously. But a single piece of it.

 

[DocAnimeTheory]

It was heavily implied that Link did not have the ToC in Majoras Mask.

 

[LoudCloud]

@LC
That about resistance to dark magic should give a more concrete evidence of how not even the triforce can compare to Majora, since it pretty much screw Link while he had the ToC. To avoid more skepticism in this topic, could you provide an oficial scan where it says that the ToC give that kind of protection?

Edit: I'm not saying the "full" Triforce, obviously. But a single piece of it.

The problem with making that comparison is that the dark magic Link is resistant to seems to be quite specific (at least in terms of shown feats). The only time we see it protecting Link is against soul manipulation from the Twilight Realm and from a Shadow Beast . Both of those instances take place in the Twilight Realm from Twilight Princess and since we've never seen a feat like that anywhere else it'd be a big leap to say the ToC can protect him from any type of evil magic. It's also not clear if Link did it because he had the ToC or because he's simply "the chosen one":

"In the land covered in twilight, where people roam as spirits, you were transformed into a blue-eyed beast... That was a sign... It was a sign that the powers of the chosen one rest within you...and that they are awakening." - Faron

I'd say it's still the former because we clearly see his Triforce when it happens.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@LC

And Majora transformed him into Deku using the soul of the Deku Buttler's son. The Happy Mask Salesman described the Song of Healing of being capable of sealing evil magic into a mask as well as soothing ones soul. So only by the power of the Song of Healing was Link capable of sealing Majora's soul-hax.

@Doc

Hyrule Historia:

"The Hero of Time is victorious. Link is returned to the time before the Sacred Realm was opened. He met Zelda again as a child and told her what would happen in the future. Zelda gave Link the Ocarina of Time and instructed him to leave Hyrule. Link's hand shone with the proof of the Triforce of Courage and so he carried the burden of his secret journey. Since Ganondorf was sealed away with the Triforce of Power, the other pieces remained with the chosen ones. Link borrowed Epona from Lon Lon Ranch and got lost in a mysterious forest with a way to a parallel universe called Termina."

Source

 

[LordXcano]

Zelda Breath of the Wild has been released, maybe it will upgrade the verse and give some explanations about the triforce and its pieces (I hardly believe about these, but i will search for informations).

Glad you brought this up. BotW gives us some new info that may/may not be relevant to this. I'll list the biggest parts below. Spoilers, obviously.

• The Ganon in this game is the strongest Ganon to appear, barring Demise. Zelda states during the final battle that Ganon gave up on the cycle of reincarnation to focus all of his power into this one form.

• This Ganon was still growing in power by the time he met Link, despite already being the strongest Ganon to date.

• With his best hype, the Calamity Ganon was going to destroy/ruin the world once he got to full power. This would heavily imply that while Demise's planet-level feat is legit, no other Ganon is planet level due to not containing the full power of Demise.

 

[Dark649]

Yes, that's right also this Ganondorf has a lot abilities and forms (Possession of machines, Elemental Manipulation, Energy Manipulation and etc.), considering that most of the bosses have the name Ganon with them and their own element.

 

[LoudCloud]

So this will be the strongest Ganon and supposedly Link (if he doesn't use some mystical item to defeat him) to date? Cool!

 

[Dark649]

Yes, Ganondorf was even needed to be weakened by four beams in order for Link to fight his first final form.

 

[LoudCloud]

Would that make them scale or not?

 

[Dark649]

Apperently the combined might of the four beams of the sages were able to remove 50% of the health of Calamity Ganon, then Link can fight him.

 

[LordXcano]

I'd say it's... very tenuous if Link scales to this Ganon.

In his first form he literally gets weakened to just half his health by the Divine Beasts, and they're also needed to break through some kind of "invincibility aura" he has. And then in the second form Zelda gives you a powerful item designed to counter Ganon and explicitly says she's holding back his power for you. And then when you DO beat that form Zelda is the one to actually kill it.

Regardless though, my point was that based on the info in BotW I agree Ganon shouldn't be scaled to Planet level, rather just Multi-Continent based on Levias .

 

[Dark649]

So Ganondorf/Ganon, Majora and the others: High 6-A. While Calamity Ganon and Demise: 5-B