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Has The Great ZZ's post been addressed?

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LoudCloud

LoudCloud

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So sorry if people are getting tired of the Majora downgrade thing but a user by the name "The Great ZZ" posted a link to someone trying to debunk what the writer refers to as Zelda wank and it addresses the Majora thing amongst other things. The post was ignored because it was posted in an old thread and the thread got closed quickly, hence why I'm posting it in a new thread.

I've read most of it and it seems to bring up some good point. I'm trying to see if anyone else agrees.

Here it is: http://screwattack.roosterteeth.com/post/51275525

Majorameme
 
I do not have the time to watch videos, sorry, but you can inform ThePerpetual about this thread if you wish.
 
For the people who don't feel like watching the video, let's list down the video summary in point form. Will edit this post later.

Also, the post in the link is a LONG read. Beware
 
We had a 700+ post previous discussion about the current Zelda rankings, so I am not very enthusiastic about having another one.

However, I will inform ThePerpetual.
 
Some of the points in the blog are ones our wiki don't support anyway (omnipotent triforce, unkillable Ganon) as we consider them NLF. But there are a few we do, so allow me to simplify them (I've furthered a few points too):

Majora's feat/Powerscaling the Zelda-verse to Majora's feat

- Link (in his base) shouldn't scale as he is defeated by Majora in every single encounter they have. In reality, he needed the Fierce Deity mask to defeat Majora (as Hyrule Historia clarifies ) so Fierce Deity Link and the four Giants powerscale, not the rest of the Zelda-verse (base Link, Ganon etc.).

- Ganon being scaled to Majora also holds no water whatsoever. There's no evidence they scale. Especially considering how Link needed the Fierce Deity mask to defeat Majora, but not Ganon.

- Majora takes 3 days to pull the moon towards Termina. If it needs 3 days to do so, then it is not a practical thing it'd do in a fight and having it on it's profile is redundant. If a character is planet-level but only if it charges a punch for 3 days, is it really planet-level in a relevant sense?

- Majora surviving it's own moon feat holds no water either as it was clearly in the sky when the moon dropped (and shouldn't have been hit by it).

Triforce's Power

- There is no evidence that holding a piece of or the entire triforce gives you a power boost.

- In reality, the Triforce gives you one wish when it is complete and then it scatters (like the Dragonballs). That wish could have it's own AP rating, but simply having a piece of it, or even the full thing, does not suffice unless you use it. So ALTTP Link shouldn't scale to the Triforce, because while Ganon did have the full Triforce when they fought, he did not use its wish against Link (it was too far away from Ganon for him to use it).

Faron's feat/Powercaling to Faron's feat

- The calc for this feat makes some wild assumptions such as the bodies of water being comparable to the Gulf of California and that Hyrule is exactly continent sized. We aren't given the time frame for this feat, nor whether it was done all at once or it took multiple times.

- Ghirahim scaling to Faron is also iffy. Did/Could Faron use her flood technique against him? It's unlikely as she only seems to have used it once. Isn't that feat more like environmental damage anyway as opposed to pure AP? So why would they scale?

Planet-level Demise

- Link didn't posses the Triforce when fighting Demise in the past (he used its wish prior). But as we've established, beating someone with the Triforce doesn't make you scale to it anway unless the Triforce played a relevant role in the fight. So Demise does not scale to the Triforce at all.

- Demise is said to "command enough power to destroy the world" in Hyrule Historia. The keyword here being command, as in "to command an army". It's likely this statement is talking about Demise's influence and his own army as opposed to his physical AP. This is backed up by how, whenever Demise is talked about as a threat in both Skyward Sword and Hyrule Historia, they mention his army, "demonic forces", "demonic minions" or some form of collective.
 
ThePerpetual has mentioned he does not care about debating the Legend of Zelda stats anymore. However, the downgrades seem reasonable.
 
Honestly, I am completely tired of this argument. And with the things going on here, I don't feel like discussing all of this. We had a 700 page discussion about this once, and we're not doing it again. All ZZ is doing is downplaying. Give it up.
 
For the record, I am not mad at @LoudCloud

However, before I close this, and I will close this, I will address a few points.

Majora's feat. Completely ignores the fact that Majora accelerates the moon by himself, overpowering the 4 Giants after he disconnects from Skull Kid. And the quote from the Hyrule Historia states that a great battle unfolded until Link used the Fierce Deity Mask to stomp Majora. And yeah. The main villain of the franchise isn't the biggest threat. Sure. I guess Wart and Smithy stronger than Bowser then.

Triforce's power. Then why the hell is it inside three individuals if it's only supposed to be collected like the dragon balls. Flawed argument, as it isn't just found.

Faron's feat. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know people who don't know how to make calcs can accuse assumptions how calcs are done. And even then, semantics galore exist from that last sentence in that paragraph.

Demise's feat. Fair enough for the first point. Pure bullshit semantics on the second.
 
LoudCloud said:
Majora takes 3 days to pull the moon towards Termina. If it needs 3 days to do so, then it is not a practical thing it'd do in a fight and having it on it's profile is redundant. If a character is planet-level but only if it charges a punch for 3 days, is it really planet-level in a relevant sense?
Click to expand...
Regardless of the name of this site, this is a powers and abilities indexing site. Not a "good fighter" indexing site. If someone has Planet level AP, regardless if it's impractical or useless for a fight, that will be listed on their profile.

Of course there should preferably be a note that the Planet level AP isn't applicable for combat, but someone doesn't stop becoming Planet level just because their Planet level feat can't be used if a fight.

Also I believe his rating may also come from the fact that he is able to survive the explosion of the Zelda planet, then go on to fight someone (Link) who is capable of harming him. In that sense he does have Planet level AP that is applicable for combat. However if Majora didn't actually survive the explosion than I am not sure.
 
Levias has a High 6-A feat and is a normal boss, Ganondorf also slowed down the planet rotation in Wind Waker, so no downgrade.
 
I did a quick search on the old threads and while a few of my points seem debunked some still stand.

"Majora's feat. Completely ignores the fact that Majora accelerates the moon by himself, overpowering the 4 Giants after he disconnects from Skull Kid."

- That is true. I didn't think of that. Thank you. Multi-continent Majora still makes sense.

"And the quote from the Hyrule Historia states that a great battle unfolded until Link used the Fierce Deity Mask to stomp Majora."

- Not entirely true. It simply states there was a battle and Link used the Fierce Deity mask.

Hyrule Historia says: "a strange battle unfolded. Link transformed into the Fierce Deity and eradicated the threat."

The direct Japanese Translation of Hyrule Historia says: "Finally he fought a strange battle, transforming into the form of a Fierce Deity to exterminate Majora."

They don't really say that Link fought in base form, nor that he stomped Majora. The Japanese translation tells us only that he fought it with the mask and defeated it.

"And yeah. The main villain of the franchise isn't the biggest threat. Sure. I guess Wart and Smithy stronger than Bowser then." (obvious sarcasm)

- Being the main villain of a series does not make you the strongest. Wart and Smithy might not be as strong as Bowser, but Super Dimentio is by a landslide for example.

This is also evident in cases like HIM being more powerful than Mojojojo, most Kirby villains being more powerful than King Dedede (initially, before he got stronger), the countless Thor villains being more powerful than Loki , the countless Transformer villains more powerful than Megatro (whenever he doesn't have some OP temporary upgrade), Dark Samus being more powerful than Ridley etc.

"Triforce's power. Then why the hell is it inside three individuals if it's only supposed to be collected like the dragon balls. Flawed argument, as it isn't just found.".

- According to the Zelda wiki: "The Triforce has the power to grant the wish of whomever touches it.. if a person without an equal balance of power, wisdom, and courage makes a wish, the Triforce will split into its three separate parts: the piece that best personifies the wish-maker will be the only piece to remain in hand, whilst the other two will take residence in whosoever most personifies them. Reassembly is then required for such a person's wish to be granted, but does not exclude another from making the attempt."

So the reason it's inside three individuals is because the pieces are attracted to them like magnets based on their personalities. People can then take the pieces from each other to have their wish granted. None of this contradicts my point. Note how the wiki only mentions the Triforce's wish-granting properties and nothing about giving people a boost in power. Why? Because it can't.

"Faron's feat. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know people who don't know how to make calcs can accuse assumptions how calcs are done."

- Whether or not someone knows how to do calcs shouldn't stop them from pointing out how a calc is making too many assumptions. You should refute those points as opposed to insulting the person for not being a calcer.

And those points were made by the person in the blog (not me) who is possibly a calcer themselves.

"Demise's feat. Fair enough for the first point. Pure bullshit semantics on the second."

- I've just read the direct Japanese tranlatio of Hyrule Historia. The English version says Demise "commands enough power to destroy the world". The original Japanese version says he is "The source of all evil with power enough to destroy the entire world.". So I guess the Japanese version gives us enough insight that it is indeed his own power and not a collective. So yes, you are right, planet-level Demise is true.
 
Also, give me time to come up with a response. That was a lot to read. Though wouldn't affect Composite Link's tiering now.
 
Also, as a response to Ryukama.

"this is a powers and abilities indexing site. Not a "good fighter" indexing site. If someone has Planet level AP, regardless if it's impractical or useless for a fight, that will be listed on their profile."

But it's a wiki people use to back-up their points in a vs battle. Hence the vs battles we host here and include in the character profiles. It'd be misleading to list a character as being so powerful when they can only replicate that power in specific circumstances or in a way that wouldn't harm someone normally.

That's the reason we've began to change certain characters profiles to say something like "AP-level normally, higher AP-level with this technique/weapon". For example, Wheather Report from Jojo. Or why we clearly show the difference between base Sonic and Super Sonic. So it doesn't mislead. So yeah, I agree there should be a note on the profile to point this out. Maybe not on the Majora one (since I already agree it should be multi-continent) but the Triforce wielders should say something like "AP-level normally, Planet-level via the Triforce's wish-granting".
 
@LoudCloud I never claimed fighting meant nothing on this site or isn't an important factor as to why people go here. That is blatantly untrue. My point is that this site isn't entirely about fighting and the profiles aren't meant to focus primarily on it. So if someone has an ability or power, even if it isn't good for fighting, it's to be listed on their page.

I explicitly said "Of course there should preferably be a note that the Planet level AP isn't applicable for combat"

If there are massive limitations to one's Planet level feat or they can't use it for combat, that needs to be added. But the mere fact someone can't use their Planet level feat for combat doesn't mean they're no longer Planet level.

And again, I believe the rating also comes from the fact Majora can survive the planet exploding. Then fought against someone able to harm him. That would give him regular, combat applicable Planet level AP.
 
Didn't Majora ram into Link at the beginning of the game?

Edit: Nope Fairies scared Eponi into knocking Link off.
 
Understood.

I'm not so sure about Majora surviving the actual moon feat. But as The real cal howard pointed out, Majora could command the moon to drop and destroy Termina even while the giants were holding it up. So Majora might be multi-continent by sheer magic alone and not need the 3 days to charge it.
 
Was there a calculation done on Ganondorf slowing down the planet's rotation? Perhaps a calculation can be made on that.
 
Honestly i don't see why the triforce doesn't have Low 2-C or 2-C attack potency. Because it's described as an omnipotent wish granted by at least 2-C beings . Also in Twilight Princess Zant was going to merge the twilight realm and light realm.
 
I actually want to see that feat of Ganondorf in Wind Waker, because I don't remember anything of the sort. It would certainly be amazing if it's true.

About the Demise thing... A time frame isn't given and "world" could just mean the surface (specially considering the plot of the game). Tho' this is just my opinion.
 
Somebody can ask Dark649 to comment here.
 
About the Triforce parts giving boost in power (forgot about that). It depends on the piece itself. There are many instances where Ganondorf survives an otherwise lethal blow thanks to his Triforce of Power and procedes to transform. Zelda's Triforce of Wisdom, tho' I think this is more speculation than anything, gives her greater affinity for magic. The Triforce of Courage is the more complicated one, and while this is, again, pure speculation, I think what it does it gives a more "arsenal" mind; how to use weapons when you have seen it once and gain complete mastery of it in only a pair of uses with it, enhanced intellect and gives a more keen mind for puzzles, etc.

In reality, the only instances of the Triforce (that I can remember, at least...) giving any sort of extra power is Ganondorf surviving shit that he shouldn't normally (he was a "normal man" during that Twilight execution). Is this something exclusive to the Triforce of Power? Given by what I said in the last paragraph, I don't think so, tho' is very specific to the piece of the Triforce itself. But alas, is pure speculation and it shouldn't be used to justify an otherwise "unfair" scaling.
 
I'm searching for the calc, which i remember being present. There are a few High 6-A calcs for the verse, so these should remain. Ganondorf is stated to be the reincarnation of Demise, who can destroy the planet, also Calamity Ganon assumptions are very similar to Majora, who can drop the moon with his magical power (And physical power in the Wrath form) and destroy the planet in the 3ds version and took hits from Deity Link, who matched him in close combat. Lastly the triforce can indeed increase the power of the user, Link (Daphnes, The King of Hyrule was impressed when Link awakened the triforce of courage) and Zelda were able to fight Ganondorf (Who survived a flood, the breath of fire from Valoo, several destructions and etc. without problems) in Wind Waker and they had no chance to fight him before even if Link had the Master Sword.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
There are many instances where Ganondorf survives an otherwise lethal blow thanks to his Triforce of Power
Click to expand...
Is there any actual evidence it's because of the Triforce of Power that he survives?
 
Dark649 said:
Ganondorf is stated to be the reincarnation of Demise, who can destroy the planet,
Click to expand...
the triforce can indeed increase the power of the user, Link (Daphnes, The King of Hyrule was impressed when Link awakened the triforce of courage) and Zelda were able to fight Ganondorf (Who survived a flood, the breath of fire from Valoo, several destructions and etc. without problems) in Wind Waker and they had no chance to fight him before even if Link had the Master Sword.
Being the incarnation of Demise does not automatically make Ganondorf the same stats as him, otherwise all Links and Zeldas would have the same stats as Skyward Sword Link and Zelda too.

The Triforce in Wind Waker doesn't make much sense. Supposedly after Daphnes makes a wish, it scatters away somewhere. The mark on Link/Zelda's hand during the final fight could imply they posses it now but they never mention it again in the sequels (Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks). Could just be that the creators of the sequels overlooked this or something happened in between them.

Not that this matters since what you say about the Master Sword seems wrong. The reason Link couldn't defeat Ganondorf with it is because he cursed it to not work unless the Sages of Earth and Wind were awakened. Once Link did this he could confront Ganondorf a-ok (the Triforce of Courage was irrelevant).
 
Likely because a normal superhuman would be stuck by the flood and the sages feared him for a reason. I don't think Zelda scales since she is not a fighter and the light arrows only stuns Ganondorf and does not much damage to him, the things about Wind Waker seems right and the Master Sword was incomplete for most of the game. In Breath of the Wild everyone seems desperate about Calamity Ganon, there will be assumptions and not impressive feats.
 
@LoudCloud

This

It wasn't until the Triforce of Power showed in his hand that he recovered. And in Ocarina of Time is the same when his castle crumbled and buried him. He survived that even after a battle with Link. (Not even Demise recovered from a battle with Link, and certainly didn't recover when the island of the Goddess was dropped ontop of him, tho' you could say The Imprisoned is weaker than him, but I can argue it isn't since Link needed to wish he's destruction using the Triforce).
 
@Dark649

I think Daphnes' surprise came from the fact that, in that timeline, the Triforce of Courage was shattered and scattered. There isn't a single example of the Triforce pieces (other than the one of Power) boosting it's wearer's "stats" without going into speculation. (And even then, this is almost only in the case of the T. of Courage, since Zelda in Ocarina transforms into Shiek using the T. of Wisdom).
 
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