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There's this one YouTuber named Aries Scarlet that did calculations for Sonic restoring time and space to the zones in generations.
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Has Sonic infinite speed?
- Thread starter Pippom3la
- Start date
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Anyone heard of this guy called Darkstar Archangel on Youtube? He makes some really weird "debunks" about Sonic. I find lots of his reasoning to be fighting headcanon with headcanon or just taking his ow interpretation as fact.
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Lol really?Stamina Control said:
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Mhm.
ShakeResounding
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I think I know that video. He places it at like 24 Octodecillion x FTL at it's highest I think lol.Modernmyrmidon said:
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I think I know that video. He places it at like 24 Octodecillion x FTL at it's highest I think lol.
Is that even a possibility?
Is that even a possibility?
ShakeResounding
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For base? Hm... Probably a hilarious outlier lol.
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Honestly hard to believe this was a genuine thread.
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Some reasons as to why people may say Sonic has Infinite Speed is because of these instances:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXcE_KE-J80 Sonic is able to spin around and transform in an area with no space or time.
http://info.sonicretro.org/images/t...ge260-360px-SatSR_Prima_digital_guide.pdf.jpg Sonic manages to cross the entirety of the infinite space the magic carpet warped into with ease.
Sonic is able to move around in the White Space, a place with no space or time, but you all know that already.
Finally, there's Sonic CD. All the instances above considered, Sonic's immeasurable speed feat from CD may 'not be an outlier.
So yeah. 4 Infinite or at least above MFTL speed feats for Base Sonic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXcE_KE-J80 Sonic is able to spin around and transform in an area with no space or time.
http://info.sonicretro.org/images/t...ge260-360px-SatSR_Prima_digital_guide.pdf.jpg Sonic manages to cross the entirety of the infinite space the magic carpet warped into with ease.
Sonic is able to move around in the White Space, a place with no space or time, but you all know that already.
Finally, there's Sonic CD. All the instances above considered, Sonic's immeasurable speed feat from CD may 'not be an outlier.
So yeah. 4 Infinite or at least above MFTL speed feats for Base Sonic.
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>"Sonic is able to spin around and transform in an area with no space or time."
Prove the Egg Reverie Zone has no space-time. If your argument is going to be "there's no time in Null Space," then drop this point because you're appealing to the possibility that this entirely different area is similar to Null Space with nothing giving them the same quality.
>"Sonic manages to cross the entirety of the infinite space the magic carpet warped into with ease."
The scan is too blurry to be read. Also how did he cross the "entirety" of it? In all of the stages he moves in finite areas and not once is he ever stated to perform such a feat.
>"Sonic is able to move around in the White Space, a place with no space or time, but you all know that already."
This is an outlier since there's no other infinite speed feats.
>"Finally, there's Sonic CD. All the instances above considered, Sonic's immeasurable speed feat from CD may 'not be an outlier."
Several inaccurate speed feats of an infinity lower level =/= It's not an outlier.
Prove the Egg Reverie Zone has no space-time. If your argument is going to be "there's no time in Null Space," then drop this point because you're appealing to the possibility that this entirely different area is similar to Null Space with nothing giving them the same quality.
>"Sonic manages to cross the entirety of the infinite space the magic carpet warped into with ease."
The scan is too blurry to be read. Also how did he cross the "entirety" of it? In all of the stages he moves in finite areas and not once is he ever stated to perform such a feat.
>"Sonic is able to move around in the White Space, a place with no space or time, but you all know that already."
This is an outlier since there's no other infinite speed feats.
>"Finally, there's Sonic CD. All the instances above considered, Sonic's immeasurable speed feat from CD may 'not be an outlier."
Several inaccurate speed feats of an infinity lower level =/= It's not an outlier.
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Again, how did he cross the entirety of it?
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You are asking how he got out of Infinite space? He used time to BFR himself out. Or, I believe it was time.
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What are you talking about? That's not what he did, is it?
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Ah. But he still caught up to the carpet, though.
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One of the arguments Stamina Control gave for infinite speed was crossing infinite space. Sonic never does this, and even then, where does the carpet? Just because it moved or summoned infinite space doesn't mean it physically moved across its entirety.
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Ah. It wasn't the magic carpet, it was just the room. Anywho, Sonic crosses the entire space. https://youtu.be/p4EO3ZosPmc?t=250 The quote " So, we're finally here " suggests that Sonic has reached the end of the room which, as stated in the manual, warps into an infinite space. There's no way Sonic would be able to accomplish this if he didn't have Infinite Speed.
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When reading this thread from beginning to end, it seems like everyone forgot about this comment.Maverick Zero X said:
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They aren't even talking about that anymore. They're talking about something from Secret Rings.DeathstroketheHedgehog said:
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... that's why I said they forgot about it.
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Or moved on, since there wasn't really a discussion to be had other than "yeah, Deathstroke, you right." (Sonic generation)
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How does reaching a destination mean you crossed the entire region? If the goal was to cross the entire region and they said that it'd be a viable feat.Stamina Control said:
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The goal is to cross the entire region. Why else would Sonic be trying to reach the end of the room? What he said upon arrival, https://youtu.be/p4EO3ZosPmc?t=250, hints that his objective was to reach the end of the room.Darksspine said:
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But he just has to flip all the switches in order to break the gates that allow him to reach the end of the infinitely-expanding room.
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Just wanna say that if you look at the HUD during the Egg Reverie battle, you can see how it erratically changes in an awkward and illogical manner.Darksspine said:
The Phantom Ruby is capable of warping space-time as stated in the manual.
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The room wouldn't be infinitely expanding in gameplay because that'd objectively be a terrible idea. How would the story continue? Hell, we don't even see an opening to a new level, just a bright, white light.
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We have manuals too, y'know. And only going off of gameplay isn't good either because there are some things the game cannot emulate or because there are inaccurate occurrences, e.g. Sonic being stomped by a Crabmeat. The portals and Hour Glasses are arguably only present to save the player some time from traversing an infinite space. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the player is told to get Sonic to enter the astral plane which I'm assuming is the stages inside of the portals. Those stages are part of the space's entirety and Sonic has to traverse through it to get to the end of it. The hourglasses aren't even present in the description and the extract from the manual itself isn't referring to Sonic, but the player.
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The scans that are provided are poor in quality. There fairly hard to read to because the text is too small but what i was able to read outright states that the hour Glass are transporting Sonic to a another place and time. Sonic is not crossing the corridor with his own speed. The astral plane is treated as completely separate area from the corridor which supposedly warps into infinite space. There are no statements that the astral plane is the same as the corridor so I have no clue what you were going for there.
http://info.sonicretro.org/images/t...ge260-360px-SatSR_Prima_digital_guide.pdf.jpg
The page where the Corridor is brought up clearly states that you have to go into the purple mist right after the Corridor Warps itself, So there not just there for the convince of the player but there for Sonic to use aswell. Below "World 7. Night Palace" is where the Hour Glass is brought up. (The tip section even stated it alters the Areas structure as well.)
http://info.sonicretro.org/images/t...ge260-360px-SatSR_Prima_digital_guide.pdf.jpg
The page where the Corridor is brought up clearly states that you have to go into the purple mist right after the Corridor Warps itself, So there not just there for the convince of the player but there for Sonic to use aswell. Below "World 7. Night Palace" is where the Hour Glass is brought up. (The tip section even stated it alters the Areas structure as well.)
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I didn't say that the astral plane is the same corridor; that's ridiculous. The manual clearly implies that the astral plane is inside the portals. I think you're trying to say that Sonic has to BFR himself out of the stages because he can't escape with his own speed. Also I think you mean "convenience" not " convince ", that confused me a little. And I'd also just like to add that it's the purple maelstrom/portal, not the mist. I don't know how the purpose of the portal being explained in the manual is relevant to the characters in the story? The page itself is in the 2nd person. And if the hourglass changes time, how is that relevant to the infinite space? The hourglass helps warp the player to different areas, not warp the area itself. It doesn't even warp the infinite space nor is it implied that it does. Completing the stages inside the portals just opens the gates, not warp the infinite space to somehow become finite.MicDaniel said:
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The Tip Section Clearly states that the Hour Glass warps the area and the astral plain can be accessed in the Infinite Corridor. Also it seems like your cherry picking what is gameplay and what is plot because your clearly ignoring the fact that the portal/Purple mist are brought in the same section where it says the corridor infinite. The full quote goes as followed."The crystal Corridors ahead warps into an infinite space, and a strange purple mist descends in the middle of a destroyed fortress wall." All of this was in the same sentence. You said "Those stages are part of the space's entirety." You kinda implied that they were apart of the same space as the Corridor. The purple mist is important because it leads Sonic to the hour Glass that transport him to the end of the corridor. Sonic going through the purple mist is evidence enough that he didn't run the corridors distance. The hour Glass not only changed time but it also transport Sonic to different points in the corridor, after all it was stated to do so and warp the area, so there's nothing really stopping it from turning the infinite space into a finite distance.
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The purple mist doesn't lead Sonic anywhere? Not sure how you inferred that. It seems to be just for effect. I think you're talking about the maelstrom. See, this is how I see it:
The stages are inside the maelstroms that are in front of the gates. Upon clearing those stages the gates are fixed, allowing Sonic to traverse the rest of the infinite space.
You're telling me that the Hourglass changed the infinite space to a finite space, right? The manual does say that it makes places that were previously inaccessible to the player accessible. That's why you think it made the infinite space finite, correct?
Well, it seems that you're simply assuming that. I mean, don't get me wrong; it's a perfectly fine assumption, but we can't be sure about that. In the brief segments of the stage with the gas in them, the scattered obstacles on the ground begin to change in stature and position. This can also be a likely candidate to what the hourglasses are warping, along with just the gates of the corridor.
(also you forgot the part about to maelstrom in your quote)
The stages are inside the maelstroms that are in front of the gates. Upon clearing those stages the gates are fixed, allowing Sonic to traverse the rest of the infinite space.
You're telling me that the Hourglass changed the infinite space to a finite space, right? The manual does say that it makes places that were previously inaccessible to the player accessible. That's why you think it made the infinite space finite, correct?
Well, it seems that you're simply assuming that. I mean, don't get me wrong; it's a perfectly fine assumption, but we can't be sure about that. In the brief segments of the stage with the gas in them, the scattered obstacles on the ground begin to change in stature and position. This can also be a likely candidate to what the hourglasses are warping, along with just the gates of the corridor.
(also you forgot the part about to maelstrom in your quote)
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@Stamina Control
Could you post the scan in a better quality please, I can barely read it
Could you post the scan in a better quality please, I can barely read it
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"The goal is to cross the entire region. Why else would Sonic be trying to reach the end of the room?"
Trying to get to the end of a room isn't the same as trying to cross infinite space. Even then, where is it said the beginning of the room and the end of it lie across the entirety of infinite space? You're arguing based off of limited gameplay that Sonic in the lore (which is separate from the gameplay) attempted to cross infinite space, despite those two being completely separate and Sonic crossing finite spaces within that gameplay.
Absolutely nothing points to Sonic covering infinite space besides he was in it and went somewhere; everything you're assuming is headcanon.
"Just wanna say that if you look at the HUD during the Egg Reverie battle, you can see how it erratically changes in an awkward and illogical manner.
The Phantom Ruby is capable of warping space-time as stated in the manual."
The timer is a game mechanic, and warping space-time doesn't contribute anything toward speed.
"And only going off of gameplay isn't good either because there are some things the game cannot emulate or because there are inaccurate occurrences, e.g. Sonic being stomped by a Crabmeat."
Yet your entire argument is based off of Sonic crossing an area in gameplay despite the lore (which you've changed your mind and are appealing to now) says nothing about Sonic doing anything of the sort.
"Those stages are part of the space's entirety and Sonic has to traverse through it to get to the end of it."
A subset of infinity isn't infinite. This is a division fallacy.
"I don't know how the purpose of the portal being explained in the manual is relevant to the characters in the story?"
And now you again appeal to the lore despite your argument relying on gameplay whereas the lore says nothing about Sonic crossing infinite space, just that he ran through part of it.
Dude, seriously. Please show any evidence that Sonic crossed infinite space and not just part of it, because lore doesn't say he did and gameplay shows him crossing finite space. Just because you want to get somewhere in infinity doesn't mean you have to cross infinity.
Trying to get to the end of a room isn't the same as trying to cross infinite space. Even then, where is it said the beginning of the room and the end of it lie across the entirety of infinite space? You're arguing based off of limited gameplay that Sonic in the lore (which is separate from the gameplay) attempted to cross infinite space, despite those two being completely separate and Sonic crossing finite spaces within that gameplay.
Absolutely nothing points to Sonic covering infinite space besides he was in it and went somewhere; everything you're assuming is headcanon.
"Just wanna say that if you look at the HUD during the Egg Reverie battle, you can see how it erratically changes in an awkward and illogical manner.
The Phantom Ruby is capable of warping space-time as stated in the manual."
The timer is a game mechanic, and warping space-time doesn't contribute anything toward speed.
"And only going off of gameplay isn't good either because there are some things the game cannot emulate or because there are inaccurate occurrences, e.g. Sonic being stomped by a Crabmeat."
Yet your entire argument is based off of Sonic crossing an area in gameplay despite the lore (which you've changed your mind and are appealing to now) says nothing about Sonic doing anything of the sort.
"Those stages are part of the space's entirety and Sonic has to traverse through it to get to the end of it."
A subset of infinity isn't infinite. This is a division fallacy.
"I don't know how the purpose of the portal being explained in the manual is relevant to the characters in the story?"
And now you again appeal to the lore despite your argument relying on gameplay whereas the lore says nothing about Sonic crossing infinite space, just that he ran through part of it.
Dude, seriously. Please show any evidence that Sonic crossed infinite space and not just part of it, because lore doesn't say he did and gameplay shows him crossing finite space. Just because you want to get somewhere in infinity doesn't mean you have to cross infinity.
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What I meant by the use of the HUD to reference canon is that there is no time in the dimension. Sonic being able to transform into Super Sonic let alone move does mean something for speed.Darksspine said:
Furthermore, the manual says " Head for the purple maelstrom, and enter the astral plane! " . It's literally instructing the player to lead Sonic into the maelstrom to complete the stages inside them so he can flip the switch and fix the levels in ruin; basically just traverse the infinite space to open gates and run out of the room. Also, this is not a division fallacy. I never said that the stages are infinite, too.
Mania and Secret Rings are too different games. Therefore, they have different things we can work with to determine feats.
We can't completely disregard the lore stated in the manual because of what we're being shown on screen, obviously. But it wouldn't be an outrageous assumption to say that he did cross the infinite space because of games like Sonic CD and onwards showing Sonic getting faster. Since Sonic's speed fluctuates depending on the game he's in, wouldn't it be safe to assume that Sonic is capable of travelling at these speeds but PIS is preventing him from doing so in multiple situations? I know you think I sound crazy, and that's fine, but give it a think for a while. I want to keep this a civil, calm discussion.
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"What I meant by the use of the HUD to reference canon is that there is no time in the dimension. Sonic being able to transform into Super Sonic let alone move does mean something for speed."
Yes, and I just told you that the HUD is a game mechanic and can't be used. Burden of rejoinder.
"It's literally instructing the player to lead Sonic into the maelstrom to complete the stages inside them so he can flip the switch and fix the levels in ruin; basically just traverse the infinite space to open gates and run out of the room. Also, this is not a division fallacy. I never said that the stages are infinite, too."
You're contradicting yourself here. How can you say he traverses infinite space while running through the stages and the stages not be infinite? Again, this is a division fallacy, and you can't seem to grasp the concept of a shortcut or that the gameplay still shows nothing of him crossing an infinite space or even the lore. There's ZERO evidence for this. You're making a baseless headcanon.
"Mania and Secret Rings are too different games. Therefore, they have different things we can work with to determine feats."
This is irrelevant.
"We can't completely disregard the lore stated in the manual because of what we're being shown on screen, obviously."
The lore and the gameplay both say nothing of him crossing an infinite space, just that he walked through part of it. Nothing is being disregarded.
"But it wouldn't be an outrageous assumption to say that he did cross the infinite space because of games like Sonic CD and onwards showing Sonic getting faster."
Yes it would be, because ******* nothing points to what you're suggesting, you can't hold your point, and going from FTL to Infinite speed is ridiculous.
"Since Sonic's speed fluctuates depending on the game he's in, wouldn't it be safe to assume that Sonic is capable of travelling at these speeds but PIS is preventing him from doing so in multiple situations? I know you think I sound crazy, and that's fine, but give it a think for a while."
Except he never did what you're suggesting.
Anyhow, you still haven't given evidence, and this is both ad nauseum and burden of rejoinder. Just cut the argument. You've given your concession by failing to give any evidence.
Yes, and I just told you that the HUD is a game mechanic and can't be used. Burden of rejoinder.
"It's literally instructing the player to lead Sonic into the maelstrom to complete the stages inside them so he can flip the switch and fix the levels in ruin; basically just traverse the infinite space to open gates and run out of the room. Also, this is not a division fallacy. I never said that the stages are infinite, too."
You're contradicting yourself here. How can you say he traverses infinite space while running through the stages and the stages not be infinite? Again, this is a division fallacy, and you can't seem to grasp the concept of a shortcut or that the gameplay still shows nothing of him crossing an infinite space or even the lore. There's ZERO evidence for this. You're making a baseless headcanon.
"Mania and Secret Rings are too different games. Therefore, they have different things we can work with to determine feats."
This is irrelevant.
"We can't completely disregard the lore stated in the manual because of what we're being shown on screen, obviously."
The lore and the gameplay both say nothing of him crossing an infinite space, just that he walked through part of it. Nothing is being disregarded.
"But it wouldn't be an outrageous assumption to say that he did cross the infinite space because of games like Sonic CD and onwards showing Sonic getting faster."
Yes it would be, because ******* nothing points to what you're suggesting, you can't hold your point, and going from FTL to Infinite speed is ridiculous.
"Since Sonic's speed fluctuates depending on the game he's in, wouldn't it be safe to assume that Sonic is capable of travelling at these speeds but PIS is preventing him from doing so in multiple situations? I know you think I sound crazy, and that's fine, but give it a think for a while."
Except he never did what you're suggesting.
Anyhow, you still haven't given evidence, and this is both ad nauseum and burden of rejoinder. Just cut the argument. You've given your concession by failing to give any evidence.
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Game mechanics don't matter unless they react to the story, like the HUD example.Darksspine said:
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