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Has Sonic infinite speed?

ElixirBlue said:
Darksspine said:
"What I meant by the use of the HUD to reference canon is that there is no time in the dimension. Sonic being able to transform into Super Sonic let alone move does mean something for speed."

Yes, and I just told you that the HUD is a game mechanic and can't be used. Burden of rejoinder.
Click to expand...
Game mechanics don't matter unless they react to the story, like the HUD example.
Click to expand...
This.
 
Y'know what, if I can't get through to you then let's forget about that Secret Rings instance.

Sonic Mania's infinite speed feat (if you agree with it) is already one infinite speed feat. The Generations instance is another. The Sonic CD one is an immeasurable one but it's still above infinite so it should still count, right? Sonic must be able to travel at infinite speeds before he can travel at immeasurable speeds. Gotta walk before you can run, right? I'm not even sure if this is even permittable reasoning on this site.

It goes in order like this: Sonic CD — Sonic Generations — Sonic Mania. No contradictions, are there?
 
"Game mechanics don't matter unless they react to the story, like the HUD example."

Yes, they do. If you try to argue a lore point based off of something irrelevant in the coding that has absolutely zero presence at all, it does matter.

"Sonic Mania's infinite speed feat (if you agree with it) is already one infinite speed feat. The Generations instance is another. The Sonic CD one is an immeasurable one but it's still above infinite so it should still count, right?"

Now, hold the hell up. I already refuted all of these points way back and you didn't argue against them then. You can't back track to them now. This is again, an issue of burden of rejoinder. If you do not address my argument, it's a concession by default, whether you like it or not.

No, the Sonic Mania "infinite speed feat" is not infinite speed in any regard.

The Sonic Generations feat is an outlier.

The Sonic CD feat by your own arguments is an outlier. Having a bunch of infinite speed feats doesn't mean you surpassing infinity is consistent in any way.

"Sonic must be able to travel at infinite speeds before he can travel at immeasurable speeds. Gotta walk before you can run, right? I'm not even sure if this is even permittable reasoning on this site."

No, it isn't.

"It goes in order like this: Sonic CD — Sonic Generations — Sonic Mania. No contradictions, are there?"

YES, this is FULL of contradictions. Again, drop this because this is ad nauseum. You've already lost by default.
 
Everything is coded! 😂 The only codes we don't ignore is if they say something about the story.
 
Darksspine said:
"Game mechanics don't matter unless they react to the story, like the HUD example."Yes, they do. If you try to argue a lore point based off of something irrelevant in the coding that has absolutely zero presence at all, it does matter.
"Sonic Mania's infinite speed feat (if you agree with it) is already one infinite speed feat. The Generations instance is another. The Sonic CD one is an immeasurable one but it's still above infinite so it should still count, right?"

Now, hold the hell up. I already refuted all of these points way back and you didn't argue against them then. You can't back track to them now. This is again, an issue of burden of rejoinder. If you do not address my argument, it's a concession by default, whether you like it or not.

No, the Sonic Mania "infinite speed feat" is not infinite speed in any regard.

The Sonic Generations feat is an outlier.

The Sonic CD feat by your own arguments is an outlier. Having a bunch of infinite speed feats doesn't mean you surpassing infinity is consistent in any way.

"Sonic must be able to travel at infinite speeds before he can travel at immeasurable speeds. Gotta walk before you can run, right? I'm not even sure if this is even permittable reasoning on this site."

No, it isn't.

"It goes in order like this: Sonic CD — Sonic Generations — Sonic Mania. No contradictions, are there?"

YES, this is FULL of contradictions. Again, drop this because this is ad nauseum. You've already lost by default.
Click to expand...
The Phantom Ruby is capable of creating dimensions where absolutely nothing exists as shown in Sonic Forces. This is likely the case here in Sonic Mania. The HUD isn't just irrelevant coding; it's story reference. Why else would they make it do what it does? The Sonic wiki (which is fairly reliable) even describes Egg Reverie Zone as " a barren wasteland where time and space does not exist " . How do you not see this?

The Generations feat may not be an outlier because Sonic (as a bonus Classic Sonic) is shown to be capable of reach infinite speeds as explained by my reasoning above. This goes for the CD immeasurable speed feat, too.

I see your points and I'm not saying that they're ludicrous, but you're very... adamant. You're free to call me that, too.
 
Darksspine said:
Dude. You already gave your concession by burden of rejoinder. It's over, you lost.
Click to expand...
You know what, I'm not going to argue with you. You keep your ideologies and I'll keep mine. We'll agree to disagree.

Later.
 
Dude, what? What's over? The HUD is information for the player. Sure the HUDs usually are "Game Over Hax" indicators that particular form of reality has for the player to control video game character, the HUD can also relay story events, like when the video game character gets poison, the HUD indicates a change in statist on the character, like when characters walk through poison.

If the HUD indicates being in a place of time and space does not exist by acting differently than any other level in the game, the HUD is then evidence.
 
I think it's disgusting to see individuals who want to project themselves as intelligent reduce a conversation to "who won". It's as if you're more interested in showing off how good you are at debating than you are reaching the truth. Quit with the debate etiquette my guy. There's nothing logical about not addressing your point = you agree with or concede it to me. It just means he didn't address it.

Ugh.
 
The issue I have is that nothing is going to be solved then it'll be years till someone reaches a conclusion on this,
 
I don't particularly care about the conclusion, I just want people to have a conversation instead of debating to prove how big their brains are. The point of things like this is to find out what is true or not and come to an understanding or conclusion if possible, not to measure your *****/**** and "win".
 
Even if the Mania feat is truly infinite it would only scale to the super forms and the Phantom King, Sonic only moves in it after transforming
 
I keep seeing Sonic CD being brought up. If your referring to Sonic running forwards and back in time then there's an explanation to that. The time post were confirmed not to be game mechanics in Sonic Mania during a cutscene and every character is capable of using it in the game. If you still want to argue that it's a game mechanic then it should also be noted that time doesn't operate the same as it does on Little planet. According to the Manual for Sonic CD the flow of time is different and abnormal compared anywhere else. Both by gameplay and story, Sonic had a crutch for running through time in CD.
 
"We'll agree to disagree. Later."

Not just idealogies, literally a rule of debating. :p

"Quit with the debate etiquette my guy. There's nothing logical about not addressing your point = you agree with or concede it to me."

I think it's disgusting when people project into something they have no business in and know nothing about. Burden of rejoinder says if you can't substantiate your point and combat the aggression, you lose. If the aggression supports a negative, it's up to you to support the positive. He didn't.

Ugh.

"I don't particularly care about the conclusion, I just want people to have a conversation instead of debating to prove how big their brains are. The point of things like this is to find out what is true or not and come to an understanding or conclusion if possible, not to measure your *****/**** and "win"."

It's not a dick measuring competition you half wit, it's literally just rules of argumenting. I had enough of him repeating himself, and so I proposed that. That's what you do in debating. If you don't like it, sucks for you, but there's zero reason to project yourself.
 
Lol. "Rules of debating".

So, you admit you're an arrogant asshat who wants to win an argument more than you want to actually foster respectful discussion and competent understanding of concepts. Because all you managed to prove is that you're more of a "debater" then someone who wants to clarify and explain the truth— an admirable trait that an ACTUALLY intelligent person would have, rather than a trait of a person who, dare I say, resembles exactly the Powerscaling debate nerd stereotypical characature people point to Seth the Programmer-types as examples of our "community".

The only one projecting here, "Dark" is you. You're the one who's danced around an actual conversation in an attempt to win an "argument". The only time that idea should even be applied is in an actual formal debate setting. This is like arguing that me refusing to talk to you about something is proof that I'm wrong, when in actuality, I could probably be focusing on one point at a time, like buddy up there did, rather than addressing every single one at once. It's called understanding how social situations work. Rather than think with your debate tactics, why don't you focus on actually having a conversation, instead of trying to assert your dominance over everyone who says anything to you? Because it's not cute, baby. Yelling at someone too yellow to contend with your aggression doesn't make them wrong. At worse, it makes them a coward. Nothing about not saying anything, especially in this case, proves the ideas not defended as inherently unreasonable. It's just a decent assumption because dumbfounded people tend to not have arguments for their ideas, when, like in this case, they could just... I dunno. Not be focused on having all of their ideas in ironclad structures whilst the entire "debate" had several comments addressing a bunch of different points specifically, the one you even commented on that was then given focus by a picture posted by ElixirBlue, afterwhich you then posted a question about, and then Stamina did. It was at that point that you established a particular interest and the rest of the thread continued on disecting specific pieces of evidence in a conversation. Each point being thrown around randomly and haphazardly without care about structure or formality, because it's a goddamn conversation.

Everyone was talking about different things in specific detail at some point. Him not addressing the rest of the counters to your point makes sense, due to the fact that in ACTUAL conversations, not these debates that you think you're having constantly, whatever is being talked about currently is likely the topic of conversation as it happens— with people at worst bouncing around from point to point arguing with different individuals. To reiterate, everyone was having a conversation about specific feats. He didn't concede anything— especially when you first through burden of rejoinder bullshit at him, as it was your third reply to him about a point he was still talking about with YOU. It's not, at least according to what you say, "Burden of Rejoinder" to continue arguing about a claim you were still arguing about, but feel free to correct me if i'm wrong, or, maybe, i'll Look at it myself. Nope. He was still arguing with you, even if you think he wasn't being rational or strong about it.

He focused on one different arguments at a time through out the thread because the conversation began to be directed at specific feats. That's the only thing about Burden of Rejoinder to be relevant as you state it. But instead, you took the opportunity to throw debate tactics at him to avoid having a conversation about the other feats, for little purpose than to be rude and appear impressive, knowing he was arguing with multiple individuals and outright citing and replying to an example not even directed at you.

If you're so confident in your position, you wouldn't even need to resort to such a thing. The fact that you can post on the forum demonstrates you have enough time on your hands, so there's no rush for you to shut down a conversation like that either. It just screams to me that you can't read a social situation for your life, because you thought you entered a formal debate when you're having a conversation about a ******* video game. He "didn't argue against your points" because he was likely talking about the same feat you were questioning, one that ElixirBlue posted an explanation that he likely didn't favor. The focus was shifted due to you guys concentrating on figuring out that feat. In a social situation, this is blatantly basic. You were talking about one thing that was a part of the other things that was only focused on because of how conversations- especially the one above- work! There was no conceding of a point at all. You transitioned from topics organically, and instead of letting the conversation be a conversation, you needlessly turned it into a competition that you could use as an excuse to be an asshole in.

Next time, maybe... Try actually attempting to teach the person you think is wrong something instead of trying to defeat them. No one is impressed by the idea that you can catch someone in a dishonest trap and frame a conversation by some silly "combat"-like rules of engagement instead of simply debunking any ideas the person has with "facts and logic" like you types always love to do. I like myself a good debate, but I love an actual fruitful conversation where I can learn something from the whole thing.

And what kind of formal debate has you jumping in to tag team someone whilst they're arguing with someone else? Shotgunning if I ever saw it. Lmao

But do you, sweetheart. Kisses~
 
First of all, explain how I'm an "arrogant asshat" for defending something I thought was right. Stop flexxing how basic you are by showing everyone you're just another random that got pissy and started throwing insults. Explain to me without spazzing like the pill-popping 12 year old you are and without saying "You should've been nice and just talked! :(" how I'm doing something wrong by ending a pointless "dIsCuSsIoN" when it's blatantly nauseuating and tiring? But no, you felt you needed to interject yourself and all of the big boy words that fall out of your gaping mouth because someone on the internet argued. By being aggressive in debating, I suddenly line up with this stereotype of throwing insults the moment I disagree with someone, despite that literally being the first thing you said on this thread. But no, I'm unintelligent because ADHD over here said so.

Wow, by addressing all of the points someone made, you're doing something wrong? Or did you need to slow it down and accomadate for someone backtracking over that's already been dealt with? You clearly have zero idea of the shit you claim. A formal debate has rules and a judge, it's not like you can't use a simple rule that buddy up there somehow broke despite that being what most arguments are centered on. No, I was aggressive, so clearly I'm wrong. :^( I'll be damned though if I projected and you didn't get angry at an argument and feel the need to write me a love-letter novel explaining about how I should be a sweet person. Instead of commentating on how someone argues in a community that builds off of arguments, why don't you mind your own business and not rage out at the punctuation of a goddamn sentence?

But hold on, because this is apparently super important and something for the life of anybody that has to listen to you, you need to hear; Just because you argue doesn't mean anything personal. I never insulted Stamina, I got tired of dealing with a debate that was going on forever. That's why I was adamant about it ending. I asked him to prove his claims, and he didn't, and when that's what debating centralizes on and you can't support it, nobody accomodates for you.

"Oh conversations are different from these debates you think you're having!" Tell me, what do you think a debate is? Because it actually just means to argue about something, not to converse and share opinions and see who agrees on what. If I agree with Hitler, it obviously doesn't ******* make me right, and there's no point in going on with a "conversation" centered around opinions. If you disagree, take your problems somewhere else, because they mean nothing here when everybody else has already agreed to rules that apparently blew over your head like wind. And the "burden of rejoinder bullshit" is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. If you don't defend your points, you concede. That's why it exists, and debaters have agreed to it. We're not gonna flip the script because you felt someone wasn't included. We already talked about the feats, several times, and I asked him to give one piece of legitimate based evidence, several times. I threw that "bullshit" at him later because there was again, zero point on continuing with it. Not for "little purpose other than to be rude and appear impressive," but because people have lives and don't have time going back and forth over something ultimately meaningless.

Just because I drop into a forum sometimes doesn't mean I don't have other things I want to do or other work that needs to be done. Especially when the forum is going to consume hours on something that'll never get through and is meaningless. This all screams to me you can't read a social situation for your life, because ultimately you couldn't tell the difference between using one of the main principles of debating and getting a judge to listen in when you stand on a podium. There WAS the conceding of a point. If you disagree and support something, you have to give some sort of proof, or you're NOT supporting it. This isn't some social conversation party, this is an argument in a community based on arguments where I used a tool of arguments.

No one cares about what would be impressive or what you would love. I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince someone, that's not how it works. And I did try that, and it did not work out, so I dropped it with the "discussion."

Anyhow, glad you could get your energy out, hope to talk to you some other time and apologies for my rudeness. See ya pal. :)

This'll be helpful in the future.
 
You're an arrogant asshat for being so focused on "winning" more than talking. It's that simple, and what I disliked seeing. Everything about your reply demonstrates that you come here to "win" arguments rather than to actually find the truth. If you weren't here to make a big ole grandstand and prove how cool you are, you'd have just said "**** you." To me, and moved on with your "busy" day. I know this is a forum where we argue a lot, but to frame EVERYTHING in the form of some stupid debate competition is absolutely ridiculous, and it makes you exactly what everyone hates about this community. A self-important idiot who'd rather showboat on some Steven Crowder bullshit and "win" a debate for Internet brownie points than to actually interact with people in a genuine manner, even if its a dickish one.

No one who isn't self absorbed in a significant manner would frame a conversation based on winning or losing, as if simply talking is a goddamn sport you have to win. It's the opposite of productive. If you're tired of the conversation, you can just... Leave. Like he did. No one's forcing you to respond to anything, so why press someone you know is wrong like that, who you can't get through to? It's as if you have something to prove beyond what you're actually trying to convey. As if you have some inborn need to dominate someone in a structured argument like some OCD spazz who can't stop being a pointdexter for more than five minutes. "Uhm actually" ass! Lol That's my problem, it's like you're soooo far up your ass that you can't even read a room. It's too dark up there, you probably can't see anything.

Like... What's the point in having a conversation like that? Winning or losing seems to be a fundamental portion of the purpose of being on here for you, based on how quick you are to say "I won"! Come on dude. Grow up.

See... I'm fine with you being snarky and shit, because, well, I'm a member of the club, but it rubs me the wrong way when I see people do shit like throwing debate terms at individuals. It comes off as if you think you're better than someone, and that's really ******* gross. I felt like telling you off. Simple as that. You don't have to be nice or even calm towards him, that's not what I have an issue with. I don't believe in singing kumbayah or any peace and love garbage, I just call it like I see it. No one cares that you can do well in a structured debate. It's just that it's a needless application of it that comes off as flexing and an unnecessary restriction to place on someone who you could use far less brain power and energy to debunk or convince their wrong. Instead of proving anything, you only manage to silence someone, which, is needless and cowardly, because it's easier and honestly a stronger showing of an individual to just leave a conversation that you think is a dead end. But noooo instead you overcomplicate the entire situation and pull out a bunch of pretty phrases to show how smart you are, Little one. How nice! You're soooo smart! Want a Cookie...?

And Lmao, I'm spazzing? That's cute, Ben Shapiro. For someone who claims to have things to do, you sureee did a great job being angry about me telling you off. Way to needlessly bring Hitler up— is that some sort of psychological tell? A sign that you're a Nazi or something? You come at me for using "big boy words" when your dumbass had to pull out the ol' debaters bible just to end a conversation. Instead of just leaving, you go out of your way to call Stamina ridiculous and say "that's the rules of debating"— "It's over, you lost!" Head ass. Like a bratty child who was bullied so much by the bigger kids and relishing in the existence of a small victory over something that's as insignificant as they feel about themselves. So proud. So bold. How can it not be true that you're just "flexxing"? If i'm just a random trying to piss you off, you're some chihuahua trying to deny his little man complex as he barks relentlessly until he dies of exhaustion. I'd rather be a random troll than a dead dog bred into a body cursed with inefficiency at protecting themselves, and I find the concept of someone or something like that calling me a random who voiced their discontent bluntly a complement. I mean, if Hitler called me an Asshole, i'd say "thank you", and laugh at his attempt to make me appear less than him— despite it only emphasizing that he has nothing of substance to direct at me in comparison to his evils. Since, you know, you meantioned hitler for some reason.

But go ahead, Napoleon, run around with your little bullshit as if you're the best on the high school debate team or something— rather than just acting like a normal human being. You get sooooo much respect that way.
 
Mate, I was defending you.

Even if I don't agree with you, I'd still say "Yeah, no fam. I don't agree." Instead of trying to debate you in a corner. How does that help?

Either way, unfollowing.
 
Again, why the hell do you expect anybody to focus on "talking" and "having a conversation" in a community about debating? It's your own fault. Nobody has asked you to step in and give your opinion on how people debate. If anything, your're one of the main problems of this community. You assume people are egotistical for doing their thing and cause problems by bitching when nobody needed it. Not once have I tried to prove how "cool" or "smart" I am, you literally read that all by yourself and caused a bunch of shit for it, you dumbass.

This is a forum about debating, centralized on debating, and using debating to move forward, but somehow because I debate and use debating tools in a way you don't like I'm doing something wrong> You're out of your mind if you need to take everything so seriously and to 8th degree. I'm not here to interact with people, I'm here to debate, because that's what this community is for. I don't want to have a conversation about opinions, and you need to **** off thinking you can force others to act a certain way for you.

Framing a debate on winning and losing is what debates are ******* about, stop saying it's a goddamn conversation and making it something it isn't, literally nobody here is participating in what you think they should lmao. If I'm tired of the debate, I'll try and draw it to a close. Stop setting standards no one else is agreeing to. And don't ever try to call me out with shit like "sPaZ" and "yOu CaN't ReAd PeOpLe" when the debate was literally resolved and you came here and typed a ******* novel about how no one does what you want. :'^(

It's not a conversation, it's a debate. I'm not trying to say "I win, me!" as soon as possible, I'm saying the points are ******* stupid and we should be over it already.

Nobody cares how you feel. You said that same shit to me earlier. And if you get rubbed the wrong way by people using debating terms (in again, a debating community) maybe you should work on your pathetic social skills and learn how to read a room yourself. Silence starts when meaningful words are gone. Anyone who's confident in themself will try to defend themself with those words. That's what everyone should feel comfortable doing, standing for something meaningful and doing what they believe and defending it, it's their right, and you have no purpose or place taking it away from them. You can call me an "arrogant asshat" all you want, but if you start shit over nothing because someone did something that didn't line up with your ******-up OCD psychology, it's obvious you're the arrogant asshat in the room.

Bringing him up was literally an example, stop trying to nitpick a make a bigger mess of things. I used a debating term to say that things were already resolved and you dropped the entire pill bottle on the floor and ran to your keyboard as soon as you heard someone disagreed with you. I never called Stamina ridiculous, I said that there was no point in contuing and that we weren't getting anywhere, essentially the same shit he did. No, I'm not "flexxing," I'm literally doing what I've been doing as someone in the debating community for a wild now. Again, zero people give a shit how you feel, stop typing up paragraphs based on "Oh, but this is better :(((((!!!!"

Honestly, everything was cool until you showed up. You derailed everything, made the thread toxic, and you're exactly the arrogant asshat you bitched about. Walk off a short bridge pal.

Unfollowing.
 
Darksspine, I think Amexim was first defending you from me cause I wasn't about to let this thread go dark like so many other threads.

(I need to pee from the beer i've been drinking.)
 
I was barely mentioned in this threat, it was when I had an outdated video about Sonic (I have 2 new videos going into more detail, one about his time-travelling feats and another that's a remake of my first video). I recommend watching my last Sonic video as I explain what happens in Generations.

I want to point out that the feat in Generations is not exactly an 'Infinite-speed' feat. In fact Sonic Generations is the most complicated and over-interpreted feats that makes people believe the highest-degree headcanon/theory/interpretation by saying its 'infinite-speed' when nothing was instantaneous for any perspective from any character including Sonic.

Some believe that in Generations, Sonic was time travelling but it wasn't the same as Sonic CD or Flash (Sonic cannot time travel on his own as the "game mechanic" arguement is also debunked in my video). The "time" that Tails mention is when each zone originally takes place, he's unfreezing the time in the zones while the white limbo itself doesn't have time. People try to say "Sonic did a no-time feat" when the 'no-time' is not Sonic's responsibility, it's the white limbo.

Some also pointed out the fact that Sonic didn't completely run from a black hole in Colors, in my video I explain that it's because he has no boost to go faster, his boost is his stamina (which proves its not just a mechanic). Sonic could run all day but without that extra energy in his stamina his top speed is limited. I will say his top speed without boost is sub-light speed, with boost he can break the light barrier but his highest is nothing higher than FTL levels.
 
No at the last paragraph, the Black Hole feat is completely diferent, furthermore it was constantly growing, it was also made of multiple Violet Void, plus a Black Hole not even light can escape, but not that something faster than light would easily be able to escape It, escaping a Black Hole is a FTL feat, but not failing to do so isn't a anti ftl feat, since pre Unleashed games already had FTL feats has show in the profiles
 
@Theuser789

You posted a double negative saying "but not failing to do so isn't an anti-flt feat" (which makes it hard to read). Also with Sonic's moment, according to known information you need to be AT LEAST 1/3 the speed of light to escape and the blackhole if you are outside of it, the blackhole expanding is also irrelevant because the blackhole's expansion was not Lightspeed or faster. If Sonic was lightspeed during that time then he would've already reached the planet's surface and escaped it (the distance between the Earth and moon in real life is a little higher than 1 light-second specifically 1.3 seconds).

The blackhole was made of Hyper Go-On energy (the energy of wisps).
 
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