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Haoshoku Haki Revision

The_Calaca

The_Calaca

VS Battles
Retired
14,574
5,874
Okay, I've been thinking about this for a while, especially after the whole "Reiatsu Crush GG" meme.

Right now we consider Haoshoku (Or Conqueror's) Haki as Empathic Manipulation expressed in Overwhelming Aura that subjugates the wills of other characters.

This can be easily avoided if you have a willpower strong enough, just like how Kid and Law tanked Rayleigh's Haoshoku in the Slave House so any character with a strong enough willpower should be able to do the same, and that's how we have been treating this power in versus matchups.

Hunter x Hunter recently went through a massive revision, adding things like Paralysis Inducement, Fear Manipulation and Death Manipulation to characters who can basically flex Nen in some way, and Bleach has the now infamous "Reiatsu Crush GG" rendering most matches impossible because of the potency of the soulhax.

I'll quote MostPowerfull's words about it. He explained the arguments as why Haoshoku should be treated the same way as Nen and Reiatsu better than me.

MostPowerfull said:
Just like in Bleach, having spiritual energy is enough for you to tank RS simply because it has spiritual energy, but Staff literally said that this mechanic can't be scaled for characters off the back, because it's a ability, even if they have the same characteristics. In this case, Reaitsu itself has the weakness of not working on those who have comparable spiritual energy, but this is disregarded here.
Haoshoku is still a skill and yes ... Everyone in OP who has resisted Haoshoku Haki should have such resistance to Empatic Manipulation, just like Bleach. That's how staff said things work. A skill should not be resisted or acquired, etc., just because the verse shares similarities with another, whatever it may be.

If this is considered wrong, then we have already started here to have the double standard. Yeah ... But it's basically the same as Bleach's RS or even HxH's Nen.
Bleach has unique characteristics, obviously, after all it is still a verse of fiction that works its mechanics. But its energy is entirely spiritual energy, which exists in several other verses.
In an analogy, I would explain as follows:

  • We have the metal (spiritual energy or whatever). In one verse, they make a knife, in another verse, a screw.
  • Verse x says you only have metal to resist, and you don't have to make a knife.
This is exactly the analogy that describes both situations, be it One Piece, Bleach or HxH. Just because willpower is not unique to the verse (just as spiritual energy is not), the ability is still a ability and should be treated as one outside its verse.
Click to expand...
This'd make us treat Haoshoku as Reiatsu or Nen, considering the verse rules that applies to the verse characters only and not outside of the verse even if said characters have a great willpower.

Thoughts?
 
I think I said something similar to this about how haki should be treated as soul/spiritual energy but that was disregarded. Guess my wording was inaccurate.
 
OBD equalize energies? Didn't knew that.

And no, we don't equalize Haki with the vast majority of powers here since it doesn't fit.
 
> This'd make us treat Haoshoku as Reiatsu or Nen, considering the verse rules that applies to the verse characters only and not outside of the verse even if said characters have a great willpower.

Just so that I'm not misunderstanding this, are you proposing that we treat Conqueror's Haki as being 100% effective on characters outside of the One Piece Verse, even if those characters have strong willpower?
 
Something like that, unless the other character has Resistance to Empathic Manipulation.
 
This is what Oda says in Volume 65's SBS:

> D: Luffy's haoshoku haki was able to affect 50,000 men, but how many would Shanks and the others be able to defeat? P.N. Captain Nobuo

> O: In exactly the same place and exact same situation as Luffy, Shanks or Rayleigh may have been capable of knocking out all 100,000. In a different setting, you can't really compare just by asking "how many people". Being able to knock an enemy out with haki depends entirely on having an overwhelming power gap between the two. In Luffy's case the point is the number of people that were so weak that they were not even worth him fighting. If there were 100,000 to-some-extent-strong-willed pirates before him, it's possible that he wouldn't even be able to knock out a single one. On a related note, as one's proficiency with haoshoku advances, it's even possible to target a few people in a crowd to NOT knock out.

Based on this information, I'm going to have to disagree with the proposal. Knocking out an enemy with Haki depends on a power gap.
 
"If there were 100,000 to-some-extent-strong-willed pirates before him..."

It's not a power gap.

Otherwise Haki wouldn't let a Low 6-B knock down a bunch of High 7-Cs.

Plus, this is still inside OP verse. In this verse having a strong willpower let you resist Haki. We're not equalizing these traits to other verses and we shouldn't do the same with Haki.
 
I may be mistaken but resisting the effects of Nen requires the user to possess Nen (which people outside the verse don't have).

And resisting the effects of Reiatsu crush requires the user to possess Reiatsu (which people outside the verse don't have).

But if resisting Haki only requires strong willpower, then shouldn't people outside the verse who have strong willpower be able to resist it?

Obviously putting "willpower" into a quantifiable measurement is pretty impossible, but I don't see why they wouldn't be able to resist it if their willpower was strong enough.
 
That's where I think we have a problem, but wait for MostPowerfull because he explained that part to me.

But for once, willpower alone shouldn't let you resist Empathic Manipulation at all, not unless your verse has a similar demonstration and power setting than One Piece.

Haki is also pretty much impossible to equalize, and Haki itself is sometimes referred to be the willpower of the character.
 
The problem I see with this is energy. I'd be fine if Haki was energy but it's not. We're granting abilities when we equalize energies. Conquers haki isn't energy at all.
 
"Its not a power gap"

And there you have the reason why you cant equalize Haki to Reiatsu. Reiatsu is all about power gap.
 
"But for once, willpower alone shouldn't let you resist Empathic Manipulation at all, not unless your verse has a similar demonstration and power setting than One Piece"

Yes, it should. Its simply a weakness of haki. We are not giving anyone any ability, we are respecting the rules Haki follows.
 
It's basically the same thing I said there, I'll repeat here.

If Nen works with characters, just as Reiatsu Crush works on characters, which clearly have the basic component of not being massacred so be it spiritual energy, vital energy and etc, etc, etc, then Haoshoku Haki should follow same line. The power gap that may be necessary for you to affect such a thing is exactly the same in the case of Bleach and HxH.
You literally need to be a fodder and be extremely down to feel the biggest regrets of skills.

No matter if another verse has a good willpower, Haki is still a skill. And just like a verse that has spiritual / vital energy and has no resistance to Soul Manipulation ... Those who cannot resist Empathic Manipulation cannot resist Haoshoku Haki.

That's the basics and what, by the way, was agreed by almost 90% of the staff on Kukui's post. So these are my 2cents!
 
If you wanna skip the limitations and rules Haki follows, its fine by me. Do as you like.
 
You dont need Conqueror's Haki to resist someone using it on you.

If you dont have Reiatsu, or your Reiatsu is weak, you are screwed.

Also, Reiatsu literally lolnopes abilies of people with weaker reiatsu. Haki does not work at all like that.
 
No matter the limitation of skill and rules.

The principle is basically the same as all verses. They take a known energy, usually vital and / or spiritual energy, baptize it with a different name and give it its characteristics ... But everything is still an energy.

In Bleach, only possessing spiritual energy gives you the advantage of not feeling the greatest regrets of RS, like being disintegrated.
In HxH, if I'm not mistaken (I haven't read it entirely and it's been a while), it's the same thing.

Haoshoku is still some kind of energy since it emits an energetic aura and even breaks things and some other component. And just like spiritual energy, which is shaped by mechanisms in each different verse thanks to its originality, Haki follows the same principle.
RC and Nen are examples of this!
 
We're not saying "Willpower alone is enough to let you resist Empathetic Manipulation."

It's "Willpower alone is enough to let you resist Conqueror's Haki."

It's not giving an unfair advantage to characters from other verses, it's just an inherent weakness in Haki.
 
Damage3245 said:
We're not saying "Willpower alone is enough to let you resist Empathetic Manipulation."

It's "Willpower alone is enough to let you resist Conqueror's Haki."

It's not giving an unfair advantage to characters from other verses, it's just an inherent weakness in Haki.
Click to expand...
So much this.
 
Does not matter! The inherent weakness of RC is that you have spiritual energy, which 99% of the universes that use magic or etc have.

Still, this "weakness" said by the verse is ignored in other verses, because having the energy does not guarantee your resistance to it. Here the same thing, in One Piece having Willpower gives you the ability to resist. In another verse no.
The similarity is there, but it is not the same, as it is not in One Piece. Therefore, having Willpower does not give you resistance to it.
 
@MostPowerfull; are you arguing that other verses do not have willpower?

Because that seems to be the only important condition.

Nowhere is it stated that only in the One Piece verse does willpower affect a person's ability to resist Haki.
 
We have been treating that as a weakness of Haki, true, but that doesn't mean we can say that having a willpower outside of OP verse is enough to resist Conqueror's. Different verse, different rules.

We can say the same for Reiatsu. Its weakness is that if you have similare Reiatsu then nothing happens. We still treat it like a passive win.
 
It doesn't matter if other verses have Willpower! Having it does not give them resistance to Empathic Manipulation, just as many verses have vital / spiritual energy and that does not give them the ability to resist RC and Nen.

The default is the same!
 
"The inherent weakness of RC is that you have spiritual energy".

No. Its having spiritual energy comparable or in the same ballpark as the other guy. And its not ignored in other verses. Hell, 99% of bleach threada nowadays are "The guy does not resist Soul Manip? Reiatsu crush".
 
Yes. In Bleach, having Reiryoko automatically grants you resistance to Soul Manipulation, and that is the words of IMade, one of the greatest connoisseurs of the verse.

So yes! The pattern I am proposing for One Piece is the same as already following Bleach and HxH.
 
The Calaca said:
We have been treating that as a weakness of Haki, true, but that doesn't mean we can say that having a willpower outside of OP verse is enough to resist Conqueror's. Different verse, different rules.

We can say the same for Reiatsu. Its weakness is that if you have similare Reiatsu then nothing happens. We still treat it like a passive win.
Click to expand...
False. We dont change how energies work.

If willpower alone is enough to resist Conqueror's Haki, then its treated like that for other verses since they dont have Haki.
 
Willpower in One Piece lets you resist Conqueror's Haki.

Reiatsu in Bleach lets you resist Reiatsu Crush.

Willpower in any other verse it's just the amount of stubborness of a character. Sometimes a set of abilities related to it just like Haki, but it's not too common.

Reiatsu doesn't exist outside of Bleach and as such the character needs Resistance to Soulhax to prevent getting killed from Reiatsu Crush.

The same should apply to Conqueror's Haki, being resisted via Resistance to Empathic Manipulation if the character doesn't belong to One Piece.

It's one of One Piece rules, not a general rule over the whole fiction.
 
No one in another verse has Reiatsu, although in many verses they have Reiryoko / spiritual energy. And they can't resist RC for it!

The only one now that I'm watching is literally a double standard!
 
@MostPowerfull; I believe if another verse has a spiritual energy that's comparable to the spiritual energy in Bleach then through energy equalization they can be considered to be able to potentially resist Reiatsu crushing.
 
@Damage

No. This was literally rejected and almost purged in the last thread Kukui did about it and as I said, 90% of the staff rejected it.

Either you have Soulhax resistance or you are killed by RC! No matter what your spiritual energy, Bleach's mechanics don't apply to another verse!
The same applies to One Piece here!
 
I will unfollow this. Im sort of tired of this discussion. As I said before, if you want to skip the limitations and rules Haki follows, go ahead.
 
@MostPowerfull; I don't think it does apply to One Piece.

The only information we have on what is needed to resist Haki is to have strong willpower.

Therefore, through equalization anyone with strong willpower has the potential to resist Haki.

When characters are fighting in VS Battles, they're presumably fighting in a neutral verse.

Say if one character had space manipulating powers, and the only way to resist its effects was to have blue eyes. If you put that character up against a blue-eyed character from another series are we just going to ignore the inherent weakness in their ability?
 
And I will repeat again ... It doesn't matter!

Oda gave One Piece this ability, and verse equalization does not give him any resistance to power or his own power, because 2 verses share similarities.

Then no! Having willpower won't resist Empathic Manipulation aka Conqueror's Haki, just because in ONE PIECE, that's how it is! The same applies to Bleach, HxH and other verses!
 
Damage3245 said:
@MostPowerfull; I believe if another verse has a spiritual energy that's comparable to the spiritual energy in Bleach then through energy equalization they can be considered to be able to potentially resist Reiatsu crushing.
Click to expand...
no they cant

bleach experts says that having spiritual energy/comparable to the spiritual energy(outside of bleach verse ) wont save u from getting RC
 
I agree with MostPowerful. The standards set forth by Reiatsu Crush and Nen should also be applied here.

  • Dozens of Verses have "Spiritual Energy", but as dictated, no matter how comparable those energies may be to "Spiritual Energy" in Bleach, you get Reiatsu Crushed if you don't have Resistance to Soul Manipulation.
  • Dozens of Verses have "Willpower", but following the standards set forth by staff for verses like Bleach, no matter how comparable "Willpower" is portrayed in another verse, if you don't have Resistance to Empathetic Manipulation, you get Knocked Out.
What Oda said is irrelevant in regards to other verses. Having a strong willpower shouldn't give you Resistance to Kings Haki outside of One Piece. If we can't honor this standard, this shouldn't be honored for other verses.

I think staff input is necessary.
 
I'll call some staff members that treats One Piece.

Who are the staff members that know about this whole thing tho? They will be necessary as well.
 
There are really contradictions going on here. If mechanics from one verse don't apply to the other in a match then why are we following the rules of it in the battle???

Whennit comes to abilities like tho I hate it. Jsut because a writer in his verse has mechanics like this doesn't mean another writer believes his character can apply for it.

Oda beloves CHaki overwhelm people with weak wills. Tabata doesn't believe Asta will be overwhelmed because he has a strong will.

That's why I hate these kind of abilities which need verse mechanisms to work
 
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