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Haoshoku Haki Revision

I thought scenarios like this are the whole reason why verse equalization exists in the first place.
 
Feel like we need a mechanic equalization page also for itself along side the energy equalization page. Page that talks about mechanics should be equalized if the energies are the same
 
I agree with PaChi, honestly Inthink we should treat Haki with weaknesses it has in verse and keep it in mind.
 
Schnee One said:
I agree with PaChi, honestly Inthink we should treat Haki with weaknesses it has in verse and keep it in mind.
Click to expand...
Tbe problem is we aren't doing that with other verses in a similar situation.
 
TheFinalOrder said:
Schnee One said:
I agree with PaChi, honestly Inthink we should treat Haki with weaknesses it has in verse and keep it in mind.
Click to expand...
Tbe problem is we aren't doing that with other verses in a similar situation.
Click to expand...
Thats because reiatsu and Conqueror's are not comparable things, one has a clear limitation that allows it to be negated while the other doesn´t.
 
It's the same limitation actually just worded differently.

"You can knock down people with weaker wills"

"You can crush people with weaker Reiatsu".
 
True, but Reiatsu and nen are very specific things that doesn´t exist outside their verses, while willpower, in this context, is a real life concept that can be compared between verses.

That being said, I do find weird that "reiatsu crush" went from being a meme to a legit argument.
 
This looks like it has an inverse weakness. So if the person has a strong will they should be able to resist it. Also this isn't comparable to Reiatsu at all. One can be resisted via strong willpower and one has no weakness such as this.
 
The Calaca said:
Reiatsu is spiritual energy, a concept that can be compared between verses. Yet Reiatsu Crush is being treated as unstoppable unless resistance exists.
Click to expand...
You're letting the meme get to you.

You don't need Reiatsu to resist Reiatsu Crush, what you need is Resistance to Soul Manipulation to resist it and it's esoteric effects. That is Reiatsu Crush's weakness.

Equalized energy would allow you to resist the physical damaging effects like Aizen's disintegration so long as your energy is at least equal to his (so a similar tier).


Oda has said that you can resist Conqueror's Haki with similar willpower, so this is Haki's weakness.
 
What I don´t get is why equilizing energy only helps to resist the physical damage and not the whole thing.
 
Haki should still be combat applicable depending on the case, I.E if someone is on the same tier but are typically cowardly, and weakwilled it should still have an effect as it's not AP based ( Vice Captains are remain normal due to them having a strong will, Yet Whitebeard, Luffy and characters like them would be killing them instantly with one flex. ). This also applies to mind-less creatures as seen with the Kraken.
 
Ercosore said:
What I don´t get is why equilizing energy only helps to resist the physical damage and not the whole thing.
Click to expand...
Energy Equalization doesn't grant you new abilities you never had, that's stupid if it did and would literally be changing the powers of the character to do so.

You need resistance to resist mental manipulation, thus you need resistance to soul manipulation to resist Reiatsu Crush effects.
 
The Prince of Counters said:
Haki should still be combat applicable depending on the case, I.E if someone is on the same tier but are typically cowardly, and weakwilled it should still have an effect as it's not AP based ( Vice Captains are remain normal due to them having a strong will, Yet Whitebeard, Luffy and characters like them would be killing them instantly with one flex. ). This also applies to mind-less creatures as seen with the Kraken.
Click to expand...
Exactly, it's literally what Oda said, if someone with similar willpower to Luffy was among the crowd then they would resist it.
 
But that's a trait in OP verse. Haki doesn't exist outside of OP and the willpower is usually used to justify things like holding 100 shadows in the body while 2-3 is the limit for regular people.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
Ercosore said:
What I don´t get is why equilizing energy only helps to resist the physical damage and not the whole thing.
Click to expand...
Energy Equalization doesn't grant you new abilities you never had, that's stupid if it did and would literally be changing the powers of the character to do so.
You need resistance to resist mental manipulation, thus you need resistance to soul manipulation to resist Reiatsu Crush effects.
Click to expand...
I see, thanks for answering.
 
@IMade I meant Soulhax resistance if you don't belong to Bleach. If you are a Bleach character then having comparable Reiatsu is enough.

Reiatsu is spiritual energy but can only be resisted with soulhax resistance.

Haoshoku Haki is willpower energy and should be resisted with empathic resistance.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
The Calaca said:
Reiatsu is spiritual energy, a concept that can be compared between verses. Yet Reiatsu Crush is being treated as unstoppable unless resistance exists.
Click to expand...
You're letting the meme get to you.
'You don't need Reiatsu to resist Reiatsu Crush, 'what you need is Resistance to Soul Manipulation to resist it and it's esoteric effects. That is Reiatsu Crush's weakness.

Equalized energy would allow you to resist the physical damaging effects like Aizen's disintegration so long as your energy is at least equal to his (so a similar tier).


Oda has said that you can resist Conqueror's Haki with similar willpower, so this is Haki's weakness.
Click to expand...
not really

it clearly state

in bleach Reiatsu Crush don't work on people with above avg spiritual energy

this is how character from bleach got thier Resistance to Soul Manipulation

simply having spiritual energy let them service Reiatsu Crush
 
Everything you just said was wrong and I'll explain each line:

>in bleach Reiatsu Crush don't work on people with above avg spiritual energy

Not true, it's stated people with above average Reiryoku can interact and see with spiritual beings.

>this is how character from bleach got thier Resistance to Soul Manipulation

Bleach characters get their Reistance to Soul Manipulation through Tatsuki, a girl with above average Reiryoku who resisted her soul being sucked out via having more Reiryoku than average people.

>simply having spiritual energy let them service Reiatsu Crush

I'm assuming you meant survive, having Reiryoku means you have Resistance to Soul Manipulation as Reiryoku provides that.

Understand this, the average regular human person in Bleach can not survive a soul manipulation attack that affected thousands of people at once; however, a person with just above average Reiryoku was able to resist this soul manipulation.

That's why Soul Manipulation and Soul Resistance is so strong in Bleach and why a lot of matches just start with "Reiatsu Crush GG".
 
And now we can see hypocrisy and bullshit when the double standard is pointed out.

RC, Nen and Haoshoku work the same way.
Literally, anyone who has Reiryoko on Bleach can resist its effects, having Soulhax Resistance and in Bleach, you don't even have to have comparable energy, you just have a little more than an ordinary human in an unquantifiable way. That is, a comparable being would literally be immune to RC and whatever..
Just like anyone with Nen / a energy present on the back, you can fight it and have resistance to its effects.

The same is pointed to Haoshoku. It doesn't matter if another verse has willpower, it does matter that they have resistance to Empathic Manipulation, just as Soul Manipulation is required to resist the effects of Reiatsu Crush. Just having willpower will not magically grant you resistance to Haoshoku Haki, because it happens within OP.
So what IMade says holds ... Just as you need Mind Manipulation resistance to resist Mind Manipulation, you need Empathic Manipulation resistance to resist Haoshoku.

What Oda said is in relation to her verse, One Piece, and that is how willpower is treated WITHIN One Piece. As with Bleach, Reiryoko is said to grant you resistance to Soul Manipulation, etc., but this does not apply to anyone who has spiritual energy.
 
OP willpower is still able to make people resist Haki and resist the influence of shadows in the body. That's a verse trait and we can't equalize that to any other verse.

When you put Þªçµ░ù (Haki) in a translator it says "Spirit". "Ambition" is the used term in-verse (at least in the Viz translation >.>) so it should be similar to spiritual energy, just like, guess what, Reiatsu.

Haki is Empathic Manipulation. We treat the strong willpower policy as a weakness, but if that's the case that should apply to every other power considering Reiatsu can be noped if you have a strong enough spiritual power and just dismiss the soulhax part. We're treating it like that for how it's worded but it's the same case with Nen: "if you can control [insert ability] then [insert another ability] won't affect you".

Willpower being a world-wide term doesn't mean anything when that has been showed in One Piece only (and maybe some random verses with characters resisting Empathic Manipulation via willpower)

This is the same case just replacing soulhax with empathichax. I don't know why it's different just because one word.

If the problem is that we're not doing that because they have no resistance, then there's a problem, because we're granting abilities to one verse via the same arguments but not to One Piece despite having the exact same thing.
 
So what we have here is:

  • Or the resistance needs to be employed the specific technique as we currently have. Thus, resistance to Soulhax is required for RC. Resistances for Nen and resistance for Haoshoku.
  • Or having something similar within 2 verses is sufficient to resist the ability. Therefore, having willpower would resist Haoshoku, as well as having spiritual tank RC and so on.
No ridiculous double standards!

In Bleach

  • You can resist it with Spiritual Energy.
  • Wait, you can't, because you need soulhax resistance.
In HxH

  • You can resist if have comparable vital/spiritual energy.
  • Wait, you can't, because you need resistance to Deathax e etc.
In One Piece

  • You can resist with willpower.
  • Yeah. You can resist because this is seen on manga and Oda confirms this on your own verse.
 
O: In exactly the same place and exact same situation as Luffy, Shanks or Rayleigh may have been capable of knocking out all 100,000. In a different setting, you can't really compare just by asking "how many people". Being able to knock an enemy out with haki depends entirely on having an overwhelming power gap between the two. In Luffy's case the point is the number of people that were so weak that they were not even worth him fighting. If there were 100,000 to-some-extent-strong-willed pirates before him, it's possible that he wouldn't even be able to knock out a single one. On a related note, as one's proficiency with haoshoku advances, it's even possible to target a few people in a crowd to NOT knock out.

Per Oda's own words, you don't need Resistance to Empathic Manipulation, you just need to be strong-willed to resist Conqueror's Haki.


Also, Haki doesn't mean spirit in the sense of Soul/Spiritual. That kanji does not exist in the word.
 
Oda said this about his verse. Nothing much that we don't see in the manga!

Does not apply to other verses! Willpower will not give magically resistances. And that is irrefutable.

It would even be interesting for me to put, for example, the Supre Lord from Riddickverse.

Riddick was able to survive his soul being pulled out, thanks to sheer willpower!
So setting the High Lord against someone with strong will = no chance of pulling your soul? It would be hilarious!
 
Or a strong will grants resistance to Haki in the OP verse. It's simple, we're not giving resistance because we have been treating it like a weakness, but if that's the case, the same should apply to Reiatsu and Nen since their weaknesses is to have similar energies.
 
MostPowerfull said:
Like Spiritual Energy, therefore, we have several verses immune to RC. Thanks for sharing such information!
Click to expand...
There are a lot of verses with Spiritual Energy, but you conveniently keep forgetting that just because they are comparable in titles or function does not mean they are the same powers or have the same abilities.

All these verses with Spiritual Energy or energies that are comparable don't all have Resistance to Soul Manipulation, so they don't resist the Soul Manipulation that the Spiritual Energy that Bleach gives off.

In One Piece, Oda has explicitly stated that you can resist Conqueror's Haki with just a strong-will. Kubo has never come out and said that you can resist Reiatsu Crush with just having Reiatsu/Reiryoku, so you trying to twist this narrative is wrong.

@Calaca I can't speak for Nen, only for Haki and Reiatsu since I know both.

Per Oda's own words, a stron will is all that's needed to resist Conqueror's Haki, you don't need Resistance to Emphatic Manipulation per his own words.

Now point out to me where Kubo says that you can resist Reiatsu Crush by having anything called "Spiritual Energy". It doesn't exist, nothing of that sort exists, in fact, the opposite is true and this is something everyone in this thread keeps forgetting so they can try to fallaciously upgrade their verses. In Bleach, you can be resistant to Reiatsu Crush even if you have lower Reiatsu than your opponent. What you need is Resistance to Soul Manipulation.

This is why Orihime is fine standing by Yhwach, Ulquiorra or Ichigo. It's why Tatsuki survived being by Yammy.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
snip
Click to expand...
And that's where my analogy literally fits in. Spiritual energy is spiritual energy. How it is shaped will depend on the originality of the verse. Tite declares in his manga that Reiryoko aka Spiritual Energy is enough for you to resist RC, same with Nen... And here, your own words give back to you.

Whata...!? Kubo made your manga. What is written on the manga is his words, his idea and according to your words after reading the manga = having energy spiritual is enough to resist to RC. Oda reaffirming what we saw in your manga is just that!

Yes, all verses that have strong willpower have no resistance to Empathic Manipulation, for the most part.
What Oda has stated is about his verse and only him. That is, everyone who resisted Haoshoku Haki must have added their resistance to Empathic Manipulation via Willpower there, which is exactly what happened inside Bleach and HxH.

It's very simple! Anyway, I already said what I meant and I'm sick of it, @Calaca I'll be unfollowing this because I don't think I need to say anything else. If you need me for something, just send me a message on my wall, dude.
 
Briefly sharing my thoughts before I have to leave. Completely disagree with the idea that empathic manipulation should be considered the only way for characters from other verses to resist the effect of Haoshoku Haki. It's stated in-universe, and by the author as shown in above comments, that strong enough willpower can allow someone targeted by a Haoshoku Haki user to resist it's effects. This is already as closely equivalent to the examples provided regarding Bleach as it can get, and trying to infer anything more than that is both unnecessary and likely incorrect.

To explain a bit better, in Bleach the RC is an effect of the power of the verse. Having great amounts of this spiritual power can allow one to crush enemies with their mere presence, unless said enemy possesses sufficient energy to resist the effects. It's also been shown that even a human with barely above average levels of this energy was able to resist soul manipulation from a character whose tier, and energy levels, were far above their own. In other words, the energy in question grants soul resistance and, given it targets the soul specifically, requires resistance to soul manipulation to stave off the worst of the effects. Having a comparable energy would prevent some of these effects, but unless said energy also gives characters in it's verse soul manip resistance they cannot resist the RC because it is simply a powerful, passive attack on the soul. The reason having the energy in Bleach grants resistance to RC isn't because the effect has the weakness of not working on those with spirit energy, but rather that the energy in Bleach grants resistance to Soul Manipulation even if the character barely has any relative to their aggressor.

That's my understanding so far, given what I've seen of both sides in this debate, so I think comparing Haoshoku Haki to Reiatsu so directly and literally is ignoring the specific details of each series, and the powers therein. Unless haki has statements that the willpower needed to resist it is something specific to Haki users granted by their proficiency, I don't find the comparison to be fair at all.

Granted I've never participated in a Bleach thread and I didn't read the series start to finish, so I might have gotten something wrong. I'm also really tired so there are likely horrible grammar or spelling mistakes somewhere in this comment, so bear with me.

EDIT: Skimmed through and already found an error
 
Yes, because there are rules in the verse that saves the character.

In One Piece case, you can resist Haki having a strong will. It shouldn't count the same for every other verse. It's a One Piece trait. I see no difference between resisting Haki than resisting Reiatsu Crush in each verse outide of the former not being treated as a resistance in the wiki while the latter is.

Oda saying that strong-willed opponents would survive the burst can also mean that having a strong will let you resist and outright ignore the effects. There's no such statement saying that Haoshoku has such weakness.
 
Is it not stated that having Reiatsu grants soul resistance? In other words, that it is soul resistance that allows one to resist a Reiatsu Crush? Think of how Haoshoku Haki is stated and shown to work, with explicit statements by the author that having a strong enough will allows resistance to the effects. Is that at all comparable? If you want to argue that Reiatsu shouldn't be treated as granting soul resistance, go ahead, but Haki does not give the users magical willpower. This is neither stated nor shown at any point in the series. Are you honestly saying that because Oda never went out of his way to say that the willpower he mentions isn't specific to OP, that we should treat it as such?

Again I must apologize, my keyboard appears to be struggling at the moment, so I may be missing letters here and there. I hope anyone reading can still understand the information I'm trying to get across.

EDIT: Be back later, likely tomorrow. I'll skim through the new comments here and see if there's anything else I need to say, but I don't think there's much else for me to do. Whatever decision goes through isn't up to me to decide so please don't think I'm expecting you all to wait for me, go ahead and continue with whatever it is you want to say.
 
In regards to willpower, not every character will display comparative willpower as those who can withstand its effects.

  • Simple followers with no goal in mind. Even if they are good in a fight, if they have no determination, no set goal in mind, how can you argue them having a strong will power (unless they're basically like Guts and just want to fight and wont go down until they're actually dead)
  • Characters led to self-doubt or hesitation have their "will" wane, and this can expose them to being overwhelmed by Haoshoku.
  • You can compare each character's willpower, but if there's a comparison enough to even pose an argument, more than likely the ability will be ineffective.
    • Even if a character as lower willpower than the Haoshoku user, that does not automatically mean that they will succumb to the ability, as there'd likely need to be a situation where x character will become fearful of defeat, or similar cases.
In the case of the SBS made by Oda, he noted that Shanks would be able to KO the 100k fishman, but if he were opposed by those who have "strong" willpower, it would be unlikely for the ability to work on them.

Example: If Shippuden Naruto went against any Haoshoku Haki user, the ability would likely not even affect him under normal circumstances. But if he were first led to self-doubt because of an ineffective super attack, and later driven to despair, Haoshoku would likely KO him on the spot.

Example2: Someone like Sheele may be assumed to succumb to the ability because of her personality, but she is driven by Night Raid's goal to take down an empire and to protect her comrades. However, likely neither of those would be a good reason for her to be fighting at full motivation in a standard fight. She simply becomes a cold-blooded killer when in combat. She may end up being one-shot on the spot by Haoshoku.

Example3: A colony following the commands of a single individual (such as the insects that D'Vorah from MKX and MK11) likely have no strong conscience of their own, so they'd likely be disabled by Haoshoku instantly. This only works with living beings, as machines and such obv wont be affected.

In each Versus, it may need to be treated case-by-case. But considering many characters have reasonably strong will (some don't), it may not even factor unless the fight drags on a very long time.
 
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