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Yo, so this thread was inspired by a thread made by @The_one_you_least_expect
Today we're going into Hagoromo's "Telekinesis" and why it can be scaled to people rather than just treated as a separate thing.
Gravity Manipulation in Naruto
Before getting into specific arguments I wanted to point out one or two things, the telekinetic abilities we see in Naruto from Pain, Nagato, Sasuke, Madara, and Hagaromo are all just applications of the gravity manipulation of the Deva Path. One of the six main abilities provided to Rinnegan Users, with the only exception that performs similar feats coming from Toneri and Hamura with their narrative equivalents to the Rinnegan(Tenseigan) via the evolution of the Byakugan rather than the Sharingan as Hagaromo did.
I'm bringing this up now to stop any assertion that Hagaromo's telekinesis and subsequent feats are some esoteric ability with no explanation or reason to be comparable with other stats or jutsu when realistically it IS a jutsu that applies to offensive and defensive jutsu that we've seen used many times in the past and are very familiar with the mechanics of.
Chibaku Tensei
Chibaku Tensei, like many of the sealing jutsu used by Jinchuuriki, Minato, or Hashirama, can suppress the power of those affected, we know this is also the case with Six Paths Chibaku Tensei as well because when the jutsu is used, Kaguya's Sharinnegan is sealed and eventually all of the Bijuu + Madara's Body are stripped from her too leaving her as just a husk by the end.
With that out of the way let's get into the main points.
Here is the Sandbox for everyone who would be affected by this.
This isn't a thread to talk about The Last or New Era scaling so outside of replacing the values for them nothing new will be talked about with them here.
Also, shoutouts to the boys @Arc7Kuroi, @UchihaSlayer96 and @Testarossa002 for helping with some of the arguments.
As well as @LordTracer for helping me make the sandbox look as nice as it does.
Let's keep it civil and let me know what y'all think.
Votes
Agree: UchihaSlayer96, Excellence616, LordTracer, Arc7Kuroi, Testarossa002, Ghostimuscrime, Shadowbokunohero, XSOULOFCINDERX, Stryker861, The_one_you_least_expect, KaydeeX, Robo432343, ssgengar, Kidkinsey
Neutral: DarkDragonMedeus, Damage3245
Disagree:
Today we're going into Hagoromo's "Telekinesis" and why it can be scaled to people rather than just treated as a separate thing.
Gravity Manipulation in Naruto
Before getting into specific arguments I wanted to point out one or two things, the telekinetic abilities we see in Naruto from Pain, Nagato, Sasuke, Madara, and Hagaromo are all just applications of the gravity manipulation of the Deva Path. One of the six main abilities provided to Rinnegan Users, with the only exception that performs similar feats coming from Toneri and Hamura with their narrative equivalents to the Rinnegan(Tenseigan) via the evolution of the Byakugan rather than the Sharingan as Hagaromo did.
I'm bringing this up now to stop any assertion that Hagaromo's telekinesis and subsequent feats are some esoteric ability with no explanation or reason to be comparable with other stats or jutsu when realistically it IS a jutsu that applies to offensive and defensive jutsu that we've seen used many times in the past and are very familiar with the mechanics of.
Chibaku Tensei
Chibaku Tensei, like many of the sealing jutsu used by Jinchuuriki, Minato, or Hashirama, can suppress the power of those affected, we know this is also the case with Six Paths Chibaku Tensei as well because when the jutsu is used, Kaguya's Sharinnegan is sealed and eventually all of the Bijuu + Madara's Body are stripped from her too leaving her as just a husk by the end.
With that out of the way let's get into the main points.
I've seen this topic brought up, but I've rarely seen people bring up any reason why Kaguya's superiority to Hagaromo and other Six Paths users would only apply to his physicals and not his jutsu. After all, Hagaromo and his brother Hamura teamed up to fight Kaguya in her Juubi Form and concluded that the only way to defeat Kaguya was to seal her within Hagaromo, and even afterward fearing her immense power they decided it would be better to split it into 9 pieces, and seal her body into a celestial body that Hagaromo launched into space. If Kaguya really were inferior to Hagaromo's gravity manipulation it would be tough to believe they fought for this long without Hagaromo crushing and subduing her, especially since we know their fight didn't include a massive speed gap since Hagaromo and Hamura were able to tag her to seal her in the first place.
Not to mention that as highlighted prior, Kaguya was rampaging in her Juubi Form during the entire fight with Hagaromo and Hamura, which means she was stripped of any of her more hax-based abilities or that she would normally carry like All-Killing Ash Bone or Space-Time Ninjutsu and faced them both with solely the raw power that comes with being a Bijuu.
This idea that Kaguya was entirely superior to Hagaromo is supported by the fact that when asked about Kaguya's strength by Naruto, Hagaromo with no caveats or exceptions, states that Kaguya was more powerful than any other, not more skilled, or more enduring, or more versatile, but more powerful.
Not to mention that as highlighted prior, Kaguya was rampaging in her Juubi Form during the entire fight with Hagaromo and Hamura, which means she was stripped of any of her more hax-based abilities or that she would normally carry like All-Killing Ash Bone or Space-Time Ninjutsu and faced them both with solely the raw power that comes with being a Bijuu.
This idea that Kaguya was entirely superior to Hagaromo is supported by the fact that when asked about Kaguya's strength by Naruto, Hagaromo with no caveats or exceptions, states that Kaguya was more powerful than any other, not more skilled, or more enduring, or more versatile, but more powerful.
In the Databooks, Kaguya's Yasogami Kuugeki (or just Vaccum Fist for now), is stated to be a just only possible via "the supernatural chakra that Kaguya dominates."
"Supernatural" on its own implies a qualitative difference in Kaguya's chakra rather than a quantitative one, and with the databook going on to relish in the vast difference in power between this and its branch jutsu, Eight Trigrams Vaccum Palm, along with no mention or implication in the manga that this jutsu is particularly chakra draining. makes this likely a case that what separates Eighty Gods Vaccum Fist from other jutsu used by Six Paths users is power.
Not to mention chakra amount and potency are both the defining aspects of a jutsu's AP.
While I do find it skeptical to scale this jutsu above any jutsu in the series, especially ones created afterward like Asura Kurama Avatar, or ETSO, I do believe scaling the jutsu above prior jutsu, especially applications of the Deva Path being used by an incredibly fatigued, and dying Hagaromo makes more than enough sense all things considering.
This is fairly consistent with the fact that even some of the greatest ninjutsu used by SPSM Naruto or Sasuke, who are rivals to Juubidara and Hagaromo were completely ineffective against Kaguya, leaving nothing greater than scratches on her body outside of when KSPSM Naruto chops off Kaguya's hand with a mental amp when he was shown inferior many times during their fight prior.
"Supernatural" on its own implies a qualitative difference in Kaguya's chakra rather than a quantitative one, and with the databook going on to relish in the vast difference in power between this and its branch jutsu, Eight Trigrams Vaccum Palm, along with no mention or implication in the manga that this jutsu is particularly chakra draining. makes this likely a case that what separates Eighty Gods Vaccum Fist from other jutsu used by Six Paths users is power.
Not to mention chakra amount and potency are both the defining aspects of a jutsu's AP.
While I do find it skeptical to scale this jutsu above any jutsu in the series, especially ones created afterward like Asura Kurama Avatar, or ETSO, I do believe scaling the jutsu above prior jutsu, especially applications of the Deva Path being used by an incredibly fatigued, and dying Hagaromo makes more than enough sense all things considering.
This is fairly consistent with the fact that even some of the greatest ninjutsu used by SPSM Naruto or Sasuke, who are rivals to Juubidara and Hagaromo were completely ineffective against Kaguya, leaving nothing greater than scratches on her body outside of when KSPSM Naruto chops off Kaguya's hand with a mental amp when he was shown inferior many times during their fight prior.
In the description of SPCT as well as based on what we see in the manga, SPCT turns whatever or whoever it hits into the center of the gravitational force.
Well, when Kaguya is tagged by it and slowly ripped from her abilities while being forced into her Juubi form, her body doesn't get crushed or even take damage from the gravitational force being exerted on her body nor by the rocks being slammed into her by the gravitational pull of Chibaku Tensei. Not to mention she is able to flail and struggle and even spits Madara out with enough force that he isn't pulled back in by the gravitational pull.
This may be more consistent than you think considering Kaguya's stated complete superiority to Hagaromo, as well as Hag's inability to kill her despite having such powerful LS via his Deva Path.
I understand skepticism for this and am even inclined to say this makes more sense as a likely rating or just implementing this for IT Kaguya, who is the one we see on screen being affected by SPCT.
Well, when Kaguya is tagged by it and slowly ripped from her abilities while being forced into her Juubi form, her body doesn't get crushed or even take damage from the gravitational force being exerted on her body nor by the rocks being slammed into her by the gravitational pull of Chibaku Tensei. Not to mention she is able to flail and struggle and even spits Madara out with enough force that he isn't pulled back in by the gravitational pull.
This may be more consistent than you think considering Kaguya's stated complete superiority to Hagaromo, as well as Hag's inability to kill her despite having such powerful LS via his Deva Path.
I understand skepticism for this and am even inclined to say this makes more sense as a likely rating or just implementing this for IT Kaguya, who is the one we see on screen being affected by SPCT.
I feel that this is much less controversial than the previous things, but Madara and Sasuke should both have Class Z LS with the Deva Path.
Not only is Madara considered to be approaching Hagaromo's level by Hagaromo himself, but is also stated to have achieved the "true power of the Six Paths", which we accept as referencing Hagaromo's true power, this should definitely include the potency of a jutsu they both share when they're both accepted to be extremely relative. We also know Madara is capable of pretty casual Class E LS Feat via his Raindrops so it's definitely not unfounded for his Deva Path to be that strong.
Sasuke also directly scales to Hags due to receiving half of his power along with his own amplifications via obtaining the Rinnegan, as he possesses the Deva Path, and is even complimented for his skillful manipulation of chakra being on the level of Hagaromo.
I don't see a reason this wouldn't apply to him as well.
Not only is Madara considered to be approaching Hagaromo's level by Hagaromo himself, but is also stated to have achieved the "true power of the Six Paths", which we accept as referencing Hagaromo's true power, this should definitely include the potency of a jutsu they both share when they're both accepted to be extremely relative. We also know Madara is capable of pretty casual Class E LS Feat via his Raindrops so it's definitely not unfounded for his Deva Path to be that strong.
Sasuke also directly scales to Hags due to receiving half of his power along with his own amplifications via obtaining the Rinnegan, as he possesses the Deva Path, and is even complimented for his skillful manipulation of chakra being on the level of Hagaromo.
I don't see a reason this wouldn't apply to him as well.
Based on the above arguments I believe a few things should be implemented.
1). Kaguya's AP should fully scale to the 845 Exatons value of Hagaromo's Deva Path due to:
3). Those with scaling to Kaguya or her Vaccum Fist Jutsu have their ratings updated appropriately based on this change.
1). Kaguya's AP should fully scale to the 845 Exatons value of Hagaromo's Deva Path due to:
- Statements of superiority to Hagaromo by Hagaromo.
- The story and characters paint the picture that nothing was ever going to defeat Kaguya besides a powerful sealing jutsu and much later separating her chakra. with Hagaromo having fought her first hand to prove those claims.
- A Databook Statement that implies Kaguya possesses Jutsu that only someone of her power by this point in the story would be capable of using despite Hagaromo being capable of using Six Path Chibaku Tensei and throwing the Chibaku Tensei into the atmosphere while so fatigued he was practically dead.
- Kaguya taking the gravitational force of SPCT with no real damage to her Juubi form
3). Those with scaling to Kaguya or her Vaccum Fist Jutsu have their ratings updated appropriately based on this change.
Here is the Sandbox for everyone who would be affected by this.
This isn't a thread to talk about The Last or New Era scaling so outside of replacing the values for them nothing new will be talked about with them here.
Also, shoutouts to the boys @Arc7Kuroi, @UchihaSlayer96 and @Testarossa002 for helping with some of the arguments.
As well as @LordTracer for helping me make the sandbox look as nice as it does.
Let's keep it civil and let me know what y'all think.
Votes
Agree: UchihaSlayer96, Excellence616, LordTracer, Arc7Kuroi, Testarossa002, Ghostimuscrime, Shadowbokunohero, XSOULOFCINDERX, Stryker861, The_one_you_least_expect, KaydeeX, Robo432343, ssgengar, Kidkinsey
Neutral: DarkDragonMedeus, Damage3245
Disagree:
Last edited:
