Grey Hulk and Thing Revision

[MJF6219]

While I agree for the most part with Matthew, I think scans are still a good idea even if you feel they aren't necessary, as that's the best way to go about betting evidence
As for the thing, his durability is explicitly far greater than his actual attack, so while I wouldn't be adverse to 4-B thing, it's likely 4-B durability at best

Yea I remember a thread where peope were discussing rather or not Thing is a brick wall aka has higher durability then his Ap. I've always thought that could be plausible as well since even though there's been times where he's failed to match the full power of a 4-B, he's still been able to take a massive beating from them. ex: his fight with The Champion of The Universe, though to be fair he was still able to break The Champion's ribs.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Thing has higher durability than his AP and yet his best straight durability feat is High 6-A to 5-B.

 

[Antvasima]

Hm, I can see how I might have come off as a little sarcastic and testy there. That wasn't my intention, but I apologize if that's how it seemed.

Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[DanielIH15]

I would like to give my opinion about this, specially about Grey Hulk being 4-B and the variable tier of Hulk, but right now I can't, so I'll do it later.

 

[DanielIH15]

At first glance, it seems that Joe Fixit being able to fight Hulk's classic enemies is just because, well, he's still the Hulk and a superhero always fight against his classic enemies, it doesn't matter if he's weaker now. So, Grey Hulk fighting, I don't know, Mr. Hyde is more like PIS due to superheroes comics conventions than him being somewhat comparable to Savage Hulk, Professor Hulk and others. But maybe could be useful to read all his appearances (Something I can do) to see if this is really the case.
About Hulk variable tier, although he's weaker when calm, I think he's 4-B even in base, mostly because most of his enemies doesn't have the variable strength factor and they can fight in equal footing other Marvel 4-B heroes. Fo example, although weaker, a calm Savage Hulk is still comparable to the Abomination and the latter still can fight against an enraged Hulk and has fought against Thor, the Silver Surfer and others. We also has the case of the Professor Hulk who for some time couldn't get stronger and with effort he still put a good fight against his known enemies. Even once Banner had control of Hulk body and fought the Wendigo without getting angry and, yes, in that state he didn't have enough power to knock out the beast, something Savage Hulk can do, but he was very far to being outclassed by the hairy monster.
About Red Hulk, he doesn't have variable strenght, he can get stronger absorbing energy, yes, but him can't get weaker in any way as far as I remember.
Now, talking about the Thing being 4-B, I think is too much scale him to characters like Savage Hulk, Thor, etc. But it's true that him has a large record againts characters as powerful as them and that's a big issue. Maybe it's possible to scale him to characters than are <387.81406 KiloFoe, like Wonder Man (I think the Thing has a fight against Wonder Man by the way), but not sure if that best way to resolve the situation.

 

[ByAsura]

No. His "consistent" feats are just him throwing a few punches around that due to Marvel and DC Scaling Rules no way denotes that he is comparable.
The Thing hasn't just "thrown a few punches around", even when he's portrayed as weaker, he's still somewhat comparable to the Hulk. The fact that he's fought the Hulk 60 times should say something. Even at the Hulk's strongest in World War Hulk, The Thing was still able to draw blood from him before being overpowered.

The Thing should be scaled from his own feats or direct scaling such as him defeating Low 5-B and 5-B characters in the same issues of those feats. And him surviving a blast from Galactus described as planet-busting.
This is extremely hypocritical. The Thing fought Umbra once and overpowered him with absolute ease in Fantastic Four Vol 1 298, he's an incredibly obscure character. Also, Umbra absolutely tanked this Small Planet level+ attack with no damage.

Scaling with the Hulk is a mess because he explicitly has a ridiculously variable level of strength.
Even at the Hulk's weakest, he's still half as strong as Abomination, able to fight opponents like Fing Fang Foom and able to withstand hits from Thor and Hercules. There's no reason to downgrade him at all, the Hulk is just as inconsistent as anyone, and it's not due to anger.

Like, do you have any idea how generous 5-B Thing even is? In 99% of the issues he's throwing cars at people and punching through walls. We found a handful of feats from High 6-A to 5-B that can scale to The Thing or belong to The Thing and we're rating him there. But you act like me refusing Thing to be rated as Solar System level makes me the ultimate downplayer.
If you really want to go down that path, then every street-level in Marvel should be Wall level. Hell, Thor himself should be Planet level to Star level, because he's only got a few Solar System level feats. Hercules' best feat is producing enough force to push a planet out of orbit.

Half the characters from Marvel and DC don't even have feats as good as the person they scale to. Silk, Miles Morales, Kaine and Spider-Woman have feats nowhere near Spider-Man's current rating. I could go on, but I don't need to. Also, again, The Thing has fought Hulk 60 times in addition to similar foes. There's no need to overcomplicate this.

Maybe most of his feats are Wall level because he holds back as to not hurt anyone, he's admitted as much himself. This guy actually has a really good explainatio of it.

No evidence? How about an explicitely 4-B character stomping Thing in the same issue as he does his 4-B feat. How about Thing struggling with things that are a dozen orders of magnitude less potent? How about Thing nearly dying by a blast from Galactus that is not even planetary as described by narration?
Maybe that's because he's, I don't know, stronger than the Hulk's normal level of power, or because Solar System level is an extremely wide tier and Gladiator was completely unharmed by the supernova.

 

[The_Impress]

Please don't give examples of Silk and Miles of all things btw, since they literally have the same rogues gallery as Spider-Man

 

[ByAsura]

That's not the point. It's that they themselves have no feats even close to Spider-Man.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

well we could just compremise and give them

at least 5A possiblly/likely 4B

there are a lot of feats backing up both so might as well have that

 

[Hellbeast1]

That's what we were thinking

 

[MJF6219]

Like, do you have any idea how generous 5-B Thing even is? In 99% of the issues he's throwing cars at people and punching through walls. We found a handful of feats from High 6-A to 5-B that can scale to The Thing or belong to The Thing and we're rating him there. But you act like me refusing Thing to be rated as Solar System level makes me the ultimate downplayer.

XD. No way, that seriously can't be the argument you've resorted to using. Virtually every damn Marvel and DC character on this site is only at the Tier their listed as, based on a handful of feats that we've plucked out of the thousands of feats they've accumulated over the numerous decades they've been around for. As ByAsura already stated, if you really want to go there, then the majority of Marvel and DC characters on this site would be getting downgraded.

 

[Hellbeast1]

@Matt did you just use the pole fallacy unironically?

Also Thing being a stone wall isn't actually accepted though there was a thread for it (CRTs are a beautiful thing)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Thing fighting Hulk 60 times isn't proof that they're equal. Specially given how Hulk fluctuates enough that he isn't 4-B most of the time.

 

[ByAsura]

That's why I'm suggesting possibly 4-B. That was just to show there's more evidence for this than against. Also, they're not equal in physical strength, The Thing is weaker but somewhat comparable.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't think it's enough because there's no conclusive proof and its far far above all of his real demonstrated feats.

 

[ByAsura]

He pretty much has one feat from Galactus' and a bunch of other random ones on par with people like Spider-Man. That argument is getting less and less compelling. Plus, as I mentioned, a huge portion of Marvel's 4-B and other characters are sheerly scaling.

Also, Thor himself has fought the Hulk less than The Thing has.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

But 60 times is enough to get at least a possibly come on...

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm pretty sure the Hulk is much stronger than the Thing when 100% serious.

 

[ByAsura]

He is much stronger, but The Thing is still somewhat comparable and has fought him on dozens of occasions. They even bring this up here.

 

[Eficiente]

If a character wants to show how 4-B they are they just have to bully Thor. The same done with Hulk is so nonsensical I don't even have to say why.

For what is worth, the root of the problem are all of those misleading profiles putting the best of what a super inconsistent character can do as their first tier, this is done with many "secretly OP" characters and is just wrong.

 

[ByAsura]

Why? Thor is also incredibly inconsistent. So is everyone. Plus, Annihilus has bullied Thor in the past, yet he's not Solar System level.

That's why I'm suggesting possibly 4-B. I'm getting tired of having to explain this every 5 minutes.

 

[Eficiente]

Comparing Hulk and Thor on how they are treated by others and how they treat others and you may quickly notice how Hulk is more than 10 times more inconsistent.

 

[Hellbeast1]

I'm with By

Saying he shouldn't at least have a possibly higher tier because Hulk jobs is absolutely ridiculous reasoning considering the oh so inconsistent nature of Marvel Comics we're so fond of bringing up

@Matt Thor has fought Hulk on what, 4o occassions

Shall we disregard those?

 

[ByAsura]

@Eficiente That's true, but there's a lot of context behind it. Thor is generally portrayed as a planet buster, or capable of making global earthquakes and leveling mountains. Hulk, on the other hand, regularly varies from those kind of levels to obliterating universes. Anyway, I don't see why this is an absolute, definitive reason for why The Thing cannot even be possibly Solar System level.

 

[Eficiente]

Not "from those kind of levels", that is very, very false. Hulk can fight anyone.

 

[ByAsura]

Again, the Hulk has fought The Thing much more than he's fought Thor. Yes, his power levels fluctuate, but they've still done it incredibly consistently and have always been portrayed this way. Also, The Thing has competed with other 4-Bs in the past, and compared many of his other foes with them.

For the last time, why isn't this enough to so much as consider The Thing as 4-B?

 

[Hellbeast1]

Possibly 4-B as well

 

[DanielIH15]

In my opinion, as I said, the Hulk not being 4-B most of the time is not true because I think Savage Hulk in base logically shouldn't be weaker, or THAT weaker, than Red She Hulk. About the Thing, what about scaling The Thing to Wonder Man, as I proposed? That would still list him as weaker than Thor, Hulk and others

 

[ByAsura]

The Thing is already weaker than Hulk, but he did fight Wonder Man a few times. On another occasion, he fought Wonder Ma, who was under Xenmu's influence, although he can't lift as much.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Who we have as straight up 4-B I'd like to say

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Really, Wonder Man, Namor and Thing are generally in the realm of Hulk and Thor but never quite on their level. Hoenstly, you could use Thing's fights with Hulk and Namor as proof of his scaling and then compare him to Wonder Man (who he's also fought) to solidfy and reinforce his tier.

P.S. Speaking of Wonder Man, I'm reminded that we need to fix Red She-Hulk's justification. It's quite confusing and messes up scaling.

 

[DanielIH15]

If there's a 4-B character that the Thing can scale to, that's Wonder Man, because even his profile states that he's not as strong as Thor, Hulk and Hercules, but is slightly comparable to them.

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally not sure how we should handle this, as both interpretations have merit.

 

[Sir_sun_man]

@Eficiente That's true, but there's a lot of context behind it. Thor is generally portrayed as a planet buster, or capable of making global earthquakes and leveling mountains. Hulk, on the other hand, regularly varies from those kind of levels to obliterating universes. Anyway, I don't see why this is an absolute, definitive reason for why The Thing cannot even be possibly Solar System level.

well ther is that one time thor survived a multiversial bomb sooooooooooo

 

[ByAsura]

I said generally. Thor is probably omnipotent if you look hard enough.

 

[Hellbeast1]

@Ant Perhaps we could put it to the vote? Not sure if that'd be the best

 

[Antvasima]

It seems better to let the staff decide rather important potential changes like this.

 

[Hellbeast1]

True but the staff seem split

 

[Hellbeast1]

3 for upgrading Thing (I think) with 3 on the opposite (You, Matt and Ef)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am currently uncertain in either direction regarding what the best solution here is. Perhaps you can ask some other administrators to take a look? Maybe Ryukama and Promestein as well.