Gremmy's Meteor

[RisingIons]

The fact that in most popular verses people are still combing over feats from several years ago shows the inherent bias of all parties involved. I wonder what Damage is going to bring.

 

[joshpiece]

The fact that in most popular verses people are still combing over feats from several years ago shows the inherent bias of all parties involved. I wonder what Damage is going to bring.

sad but true

 

[YukaSama4]

well, I would appreciate it if people stopped hyping the atmosphere here, the previous sternritter thread was nice and cool, lets just do the same here so we can have a productive discussion

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yeah lol someone found a new way to calc the feat in a way they feel is more accurate. Thus a CRT is made to address such, it’s quite literally what this site is for. There only exists this “hyped atmosphere” if you bring it here. There’s really no need, if you can’t help but complain, complain off site. Don’t stoke a negative atmosphere here.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Aren't East Asian Oriental Architectures made of wood better equiped to handle earthquakes then concrete structures??

Spoiler: .

That explains how even severe earthquakes don't affect structures much.

Also I agree.

 

[Damage3245]

The basis of the proposed method is this:

1) The edges of the Seireitei withstood a Mach 7.8 earthquake and weren’t destroyed.

2) Gremmy was going to destroy the Seireitei.

3) Therefore, Gremmy’s meteor would have generated earthquakes this strong.

I don’t think there’s a good enough basis for the calc, and here’s why:

Strength of the earthquake​

Despite being a “seismic shift of unprecedented magnitude” the effects of the quake clearly aren’t felt the same everywhere. In the Human World, where Ichigo’s sisters are at, they just experience it as a small tremor that lasts for a long time.

So, to say that the earthquake overall being rated extremely high means that everywhere at once was experiencing it at the same intensity seems faulty to me.

But let’s concentrate on the Seireitei itself. The claim is that only “minor damage” happened so the structures of the Seireitei could clearly withstand an earthquake and would require a stronger earthquake to be completely destroyed.

But I object to this being considered minor damage. As Ikkaku pointed out, the roof was collapsing over their heads.

In other parts of the Seireitei, towers and buildings were literally falling over, and the outer walls were crumbling. It can be difficult to tell since Kubo doesn’t draw speed lines on the buildings, but this page here clearly shows parts of buildings and towers collapsing.

That the entire Seireitei didn’t completely collapse is just due to the earthquake being stopped in time. For the brief time period that the Seireitei was hit by the earthquake, it was undoubtedly taking damage.

But I think that the notion that the edges of the Seireitei must be experiencing at least a 7.8 earthquake, otherwise they wouldn’t be destroyed by the meteor, is not an absolute necessity because of the other effects of the meteor.

Effects of the meteor​

To point out the obvious, the meteor never landed on the Seireitei, and we didn’t get to see what kind of effect it would have.

The only statements we have concerning the actual effects are Gremmy statements which are:

- “Fade away… along with the Seireitei itself.”

- “I’ll be the only one standing in the wreckage.”

- “It’ll fall and wipe everybody out. I’ll be the only one alive.”

On the one hand this is straightforward in some respects because we can tell from Gremmy’s intentions that he expects to be the only survivor and he expects the Seireitei to be destroyed. But on the other hand, this doesn’t give us a specific description of how the Seireitei will be destroyed beyond being “hit by a meteor.” It doesn’t say that he is going to wipe out the Seireitei through earthquakes or what the strength of those hypothetical quakes would be. It doesn’t say that every single building is going to collapse, or that the reason they’ll collapse is due to seismic energy.

Our page on the method for the calculation states this:

This method should be used if an earthquake is caused through the impact of a meteor or through an event very similar to that.

This is stating the obvious, but the fact is that we don't have direct evidence of an earthquake of this intensity being caused by the impact of the meteor.

Even if we assumed they could be this strong, I don’t think we have enough evidence to safely assume their intensity at a specific distance like 500 kilometres away from the impact site. The buildings needing to be destroyed, if we assume Gremmy meant to destroy literally every building, isn’t proof of their intensity.

You might be asking “How do you think the Seireitei would be destroyed if the earthquakes weren't this strong? The edges of the Seireitei are pretty far away.”

Well, seismic energy is not the only way that the Seireitei could be damaged or destroyed. There’s the impact itself and the resulting shockwave.

To be a bit objective, Kubo intentionally drew the meteor to be about half the size of Seireitei. It’s impact alone would wipe out a good 50% of the Seireitei or more just by crushing it and then spreading outwards. And for all we know, the shockwave of its landing would be enough to flatten or shatter any other buildings before an earthquake would do it. Since the feat actually never took place, we can’t know for certain.

But assuming from Gremmy’s statements that he intended to create an earthquake to break each building seems too speculative to me and ignores the other factors of the meteor’s landing.

There's also the issue in whether or not literally all of the Seireitei has to be destroyed for Gremmy's statements to make sense. If the impact alone would already wipe out a majority of the Seireitei, without even taking into consideration what other after-effects there would be, then I think it’s more than fair to call the Seireitei “destroyed” (technically Gremmy never states all of the Seireitei would be destroyed anyway) and for there to be “wreckage” created.

But even if it had to be all of it, there isn't enough evidence that the earthquakes themselves are what would be responsible for the destruction.

 

[AKUTO123]

Since the calculation method is applied in another anime series, I personally do not see a problem in applying it

 

[The_Alxhemist]

the feat is valid, the scaling is.. weird, disagree with some of it, disagree with most of the justifications lol, we can talk about that later as I just woke up

I agree with this.

If this CRT goes through then a character like Kenny should not just have a even higher rating, depending on what the result of the calc is and how much multiplier he gets with his eye patch off and bankai, he could be Moon level at his strongest.

 

[SilentBob34]

I agree with this.

If this CRT goes through then a character like Kenny should not just have a even higher rating, depending on what the result of the calc is and how much multiplier he gets with his eye patch off and bankai, he could be Moon level at his strongest.

Yeah.. no lol. If this is accepted the highest Kenpachi could go to would be at absolute max like 1 exaton, which is still far away from moon level

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’ll get back to you @Damage3245 later today thanks for the response

 

[RisingIons]

The basis of the proposed method is this:

1) The edges of the Seireitei withstood a Mach 7.8 earthquake and weren’t destroyed.

2) Gremmy was going to destroy the Seireitei.

3) Therefore, Gremmy’s meteor would have generated earthquakes this strong.

I think OP is saying use this method because the current one uses ground based explosions, which in itself I don’t agree with because you would want to use KE, but this method is more true to the feat than what currently exists.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The basis of the proposed method is this:

1) The edges of the Seireitei withstood a Mach 7.8 earthquake and weren’t destroyed.

2) Gremmy was going to destroy the Seireitei.

3) Therefore, Gremmy’s meteor would have generated earthquakes this strong.

I don’t think there’s a good enough basis for the calc, and here’s why:

Strength of the earthquake​

Despite being a “seismic shift of unprecedented magnitude” the effects of the quake clearly aren’t felt the same everywhere. In the Human World, where Ichigo’s sisters are at, they just experience it as a small tremor that lasts for a long time.

Yes Reio's death shook multiple planets as we currently accept it. Shaking a planet here is magnitude 4 at the furthest point from the epicenter and around magnitude 11 at the epicenter. So I agree that the shake isn't going to be 9.5+ everywhere; however, being that Seireitei is the closest point to the epicenter (Reio), and we see the ground open up further outside Seireitei's borders (which happened for a recorded 7.1 magnitude earthquake in a desert), it is logical to assume that Seireitei would be feeling higher magnitudes than say the other side of the planet which is further from Reio.

So, to say that the earthquake overall being rated extremely high means that everywhere at once was experiencing it at the same intensity seems faulty to me.

But let’s concentrate on the Seireitei itself. The claim is that only “minor damage” happened so the structures of the Seireitei could clearly withstand an earthquake and would require a stronger earthquake to be completely destroyed.

But I object to this being considered minor damage. As Ikkaku pointed out, the roof was collapsing over their heads.

In other parts of the Seireitei, towers and buildings were literally falling over, and the outer walls were crumbling. It can be difficult to tell since Kubo doesn’t draw speed lines on the buildings, but this page here clearly shows parts of buildings and towers collapsing.

That the entire Seireitei didn’t completely collapse is just due to the earthquake being stopped in time. For the brief time period that the Seireitei was hit by the earthquake, it was undoubtedly taking damage.

If you look at any of the after images you'll notice the surroundings aren't that far different from prior to the quake. Being that Seireitei is closer to Reio (the epicenter) than literally anything that's not the Royal Palace, it's more likely the Seireitei was exposed to a higher than 7.8 magnitude earthquake. Saying that "shaking the world varies depending where you are, thus we can't give the 7.8 value to the calc" is just as valid as saying we can under equal interpretation. What matters is which interpretation has more evidence, to which being closer to the epicenter is more evidence than saying "it's possible it wasn't 7.8".

To address the "we see some buildings collapse" point, let's not pretend that some damage occurring makes the calc false. The driving point is that the Seireitei suffered minimal damage from such a potent shake, which validates the calc. Some damage is to be expected, but the fact Seireitei could withstand the deathquake, but the meteor was going to completely destroy Seireitei is the important aspect.

But I think that the notion that the edges of the Seireitei must be experiencing at least a 7.8 earthquake, otherwise they wouldn’t be destroyed by the meteor, is not an absolute necessity because of the other effects of the meteor.

Aren't East Asian Oriental Architectures made of wood better equiped to handle earthquakes then concrete structures??

Spoiler: .

That explains how even severe earthquakes don't affect structures much.

Also I agree.

Angelo points out a phenomenal point. If East Asian structures are better equipped to handle quakes than you're average Western infrastructure that would validate Sklav's calc even more. Especially considering we used this method for a more "California" like city with the OPM calc.

Effects of the meteor​

To point out the obvious, the meteor never landed on the Seireitei, and we didn’t get to see what kind of effect it would have.

The only statements we have concerning the actual effects are Gremmy statements which are:

- “Fade away… along with the Seireitei itself.”

- “I’ll be the only one standing in the wreckage.”

- “It’ll fall and wipe everybody out. I’ll be the only one alive.”

On the one hand this is straightforward in some respects because we can tell from Gremmy’s intentions that he expects to be the only survivor and he expects the Seireitei to be destroyed. But on the other hand, this doesn’t give us a specific description of how the Seireitei will be destroyed beyond being “hit by a meteor.” It doesn’t say that he is going to wipe out the Seireitei through earthquakes or what the strength of those hypothetical quakes would be. It doesn’t say that every single building is going to collapse, or that the reason they’ll collapse is due to seismic energy.

In my honest opinion, the most accurate way to calc this would be to pixel scale both images of the calc and take and average and use KE. Because certainly a meteor and a ground based explosion are not the same thing, and our current accepted calc assumes the meteor must act like a ground based explosion. So, if you'd prefer I'd be happy to average the pixel scales or take the pixel scale that yields the smallest meteor and use KE. But using the meteors KE since we can actually measure that > using the meteor formula > using a ground based explosion formula for something that isn't a ground based explosion.

Our page on the method for the calculation states this:



This is stating the obvious, but the fact is that we don't have direct evidence of an earthquake of this intensity being caused by the impact of the meteor.

Even if we assumed they could be this strong, I don’t think we have enough evidence to safely assume their intensity at a specific distance like 500 kilometres away from the impact site. The buildings needing to be destroyed, if we assume Gremmy meant to destroy literally every building, isn’t proof of their intensity.

You might be asking “How do you think the Seireitei would be destroyed if the earthquakes weren't this strong? The edges of the Seireitei are pretty far away.”

Well, seismic energy is not the only way that the Seireitei could be damaged or destroyed. There’s the impact itself and the resulting shockwave.

To be a bit objective, Kubo intentionally drew the meteor to be about half the size of Seireitei. It’s impact alone would wipe out a good 50% of the Seireitei or more just by crushing it and then spreading outwards. And for all we know, the shockwave of its landing would be enough to flatten or shatter any other buildings before an earthquake would do it. Since the feat actually never took place, we can’t know for certain.

Again I'll bring up that the meteor formula is by far a better option than using a ground based explosion formula, since the meteor isn't a ground level explosion. However, if you are seemingly in agreement that the meteor has an agreeable size of ~50% Seireitei than I see no reason to not use KE.

But assuming from Gremmy’s statements that he intended to create an earthquake to break each building seems too speculative to me and ignores the other factors of the meteor’s landing.

There's also the issue in whether or not literally all of the Seireitei has to be destroyed for Gremmy's statements to make sense. If the impact alone would already wipe out a majority of the Seireitei, without even taking into consideration what other after-effects there would be, then I think it’s more than fair to call the Seireitei “destroyed” (technically Gremmy never states all of the Seireitei would be destroyed anyway) and for there to be “wreckage” created.

But even if it had to be all of it, there isn't enough evidence that the earthquakes themselves are what would be responsible for the destruction.

I find this a bit hypocritical as the OPM calc was okayed solely with Genos's single statement of "City-Z will be destroyed" which is definitely not more informative than what we get in Bleach.

 

[Damage3245]

If you look at any of the after images you'll notice the surroundings aren't that far different from prior to the quake. Being that Seireitei is closer to Reio (the epicenter) than literally anything that's not the Royal Palace, it's more likely the Seireitei was exposed to a higher than 7.8 magnitude earthquake. Saying that "shaking the world varies depending where you are, thus we can't give the 7.8 value to the calc" is just as valid as saying we can under equal interpretation. What matters is which interpretation has more evidence, to which being closer to the epicenter is more evidence than saying "it's possible it wasn't 7.8".

I'm not so sure that distance to the Reio matters that much. The royal palace wasn't hit be an earthquake stronger than what Seireitei experienced (albeit the royal palace is floating and doesn't have an earth to quake).

To address the "we see some buildings collapse" point, let's not pretend that some damage occurring makes the calc false. The driving point is that the Seireitei suffered minimal damage from such a potent shake, which validates the calc. Some damage is to be expected, but the fact Seireitei could withstand the deathquake, but the meteor was going to completely destroy Seireitei is the important aspect.

Isn't it actually moreso the case that we consider the shake to be "potent" because of the visible damage? And again, technically the meteor was never said to completely destroy the Seireitei through seismic energy.

In my honest opinion, the most accurate way to calc this would be to pixel scale both images of the calc and take and average and use KE. Because certainly a meteor and a ground based explosion are not the same thing, and our current accepted calc assumes the meteor must act like a ground based explosion. So, if you'd prefer I'd be happy to average the pixel scales or take the pixel scale that yields the smallest meteor and use KE. But using the meteors KE since we can actually measure that > using the meteor formula > using a ground based explosion formula for something that isn't a ground based explosion.

The current calc is being used because pixelscaling was decided not to be valid for Bleach / feats involving the Seireitei. It was the compromised result in order to continue allowing the Seireitei to have the size that it does.

Again I'll bring up that the meteor formula is by far a better option than using a ground based explosion formula, since the meteor isn't a ground level explosion. However, if you are seemingly in agreement that the meteor has an agreeable size of ~50% Seireitei than I see no reason to not use KE.

I agree that in general it is the better option, but in the current context I don't think the earthquake calc made by Usk is viable for the feat.

I find this a bit hypocritical as the OPM calc was okayed solely with Genos's single statement of "City-Z will be destroyed" which is definitely not more informative than what we get in Bleach.

I didn't feel the need to state it because it's more to do with another verse, but I agree with removing the calc from One Punch Man.

Please don't assume I'm specifically targeting Bleach here. I didn't realize how flawed the OPM calc was until this thread and I gave the method more scrutiny.

 

[Purgy]

Not sure how much it matters, but in the digital colored version of the manga, it's stated that the meteor would destroy all of the Seiretei.

"It's time for you to disappear, along with all of Seireitei"

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The current calc is being used because pixelscaling was decided not to be valid for Bleach / feats involving the Seireitei. It was the compromised result in order to continue allowing the Seireitei to have the size that it does.

I don't see how using a ground based explosive calc is a compromise when what we are calcing isn't a ground based explosion.

I didn't feel the need to state it because it's more to do with another verse, but I agree with removing the calc from One Punch Man.

Please don't assume I'm specifically targeting Bleach here. I didn't realize how flawed the OPM calc was until this thread and I gave the method more scrutiny.

That's fine I'm just bringing it up as a consistency check since we currently use it, and until we don't it's valid to use as precedence.

I'm not so sure that distance to the Reio matters that much. The royal palace wasn't hit be an earthquake stronger than what Seireitei experienced (albeit the royal palace is floating and doesn't have an earth to quake).

Considering we see the ground open up near Seireitei, it certainly supports that Seireitei experienced a higher magnitude quake than per se the Kurosaki Clinic.

I agree that in general it is the better option, but in the current context I don't think the earthquake calc made by Usk is viable for the feat.

KE or meteor formula?

The current calc is being used because pixelscaling was decided not to be valid for Bleach / feats involving the Seireitei. It was the compromised result in order to continue allowing the Seireitei to have the size that it does.

There's a new point that Ovy7 has brought up to me regarding the two scans for the meteor that may eliminate the issues with scaling inconsistency. But my point remains, even the smallest pixel scale of the meteor with KE is High 6-A.

Isn't it actually moreso the case that we consider the shake to be "potent" because of the visible damage? And again, technically the meteor was never said to completely destroy the Seireitei through seismic energy.

I think requiring the author to use the specific word "seismic energy" is a bit disingenuous, especially in a series that feeds you information in an indirect manner.

Not sure how much it matters, but in the digital colored version of the manga, it's stated that the meteor would destroy all of the Seiretei.

"It's time for you to disappear, along with all of Seireitei"

As Purgy noted, it's stated that all of Seireitei will disappear.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

but I agree with removing the calc from One Punch Man.

 

[Damage3245]

KE or meteor formula?

The meteor formula is better than the ground explosion calc, in general.

There's a new point that Ovy7 has brought up to me regarding the two scans for the meteor that may eliminate the issues with scaling inconsistency. But my point remains, even the smallest pixel scale of the meteor with KE is High 6-A.

I don't quite agree with that "smallest pixel scale being High 6-A". There are too many inconsistencies with using the pixelscaling for the Seireitei.

It was specifically decided that we don't do that in the past because visuals of the Seireitei cannot be used for anything relating to its size. It was decided to use a statements only approach would work. You can't pick and choose and use both statements and visuals.

I think requiring the author to use the specific word "seismic energy" is a bit disingenuous, especially in a series that feeds you information in an indirect manner.

It's not that they're required to use it. It's that actual evidence of the potency of any generated earthquakes is what should be used. Assuming a level of destruction, and assuming that destruction was only caused by earthquakes is too much.

As Purgy noted, it's stated that all of Seireitei will disappear.

If the translation is correct.

 

[Cyberblader90]

what chapter is that? we can get the raw

 

[RisingIons]

The OPM feat is about as far away as possible from the ambiguity of these feat. It was monitored and studied by scientists, showed hypotheticals of the land of it would’ve impacted, and has several statements.

Y’all need to stop trying to drag other verses into downgrades when you lose an argument

 

[Purgy]

I don't quite agree with that "smallest pixel scale being High 6-A". There are too many inconsistencies with using the pixelscaling for the Seireitei.

It was specifically decided that we don't do that in the past because visuals of the Seireitei cannot be used for anything relating to its size. It was decided to use a statements only approach would work. You can't pick and choose and use both statements and visuals.

You don't need to pixel scale anything, you can just eyeball it and easily see its diameter is around half of Seireitei.

And you're wrong on that last point, visuals can be used for Bleach when they're not extremely inconsistent with each other, there is no statement about the meteors size so we have no choice but to use the visuals, and the visuals show it being half of the Seireitei in diameter, or around 285KM.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't quite agree with that "smallest pixel scale being High 6-A". There are too many inconsistencies with using the pixelscaling for the Seireitei.

It was specifically decided that we don't do that in the past because visuals of the Seireitei cannot be used for anything relating to its size. It was decided to use a statements only approach would work. You can't pick and choose and use both statements and visuals.

Ignoring pixel scaling, as you even admitted to, the meteor is portrayed is very comparable in size to Seireitei, a big rock comparable to a structure over 1000 km in diameter moving at ablation speeds, is entirely more consistent with Multi-Continental.

It's not that they're required to use it. It's that actual evidence of the potency of any generated earthquakes is what should be used. Assuming a level of destruction, and assuming that destruction was only caused by earthquakes is too much.

It's by far and large a much better assumption than "the meteor is a ground based explosion".

If the translation is correct.

I have the whole manga raw I'll check.

 

[Purgy]

what chapter is that? we can get the raw

576

 

[Cyberblader90]

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The raws say "vanish/disappear with Seireitei", VIZ says "fade away along with Seireitei itself", both implying that Seireitei will be destroyed. I don't see why "Seireitei" wouldn't include all of Seireitei either. Like if someone says "I'll destroy the planet" or "this moon will fade away" we wouldn't be like "oh only part will be destroyed" we'd assume they're speaking of the whole thing.

 

[RisingIons]

That’s a big meatball

 

[YukaSama4]

The raws say "vanish/disappear with Seireitei", VIZ says "fade away along with Seireitei itself", both implying that Seireitei will be destroyed. I don't see why "Seireitei" wouldn't include all of Seireitei either. Like if someone says "I'll destroy the planet" or "this moon will fade away" we wouldn't be like "oh only part will be destroyed" we'd assume they're speaking of the whole thing.

agree with this

 

[Cyberblader90]

translation by qliphoth:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translations-requests-thread-new-forum.107531/post-3892118

 

[RisingIons]

Spicy meatball confirmed

 

[USklaverei]

:O

 

[Tyri456]

I agree with the calc.

My doubt is the scaling, wasn't the meteor created by 2 gremmy and destroyed by Shikai Kenpachi, therefore base kenpachi and base gremmy not scaling to the feat? but only shikai.

 

[Naeblis495]

2 gremmy is just 2x more powerfull than base gremmy.
Even by halving the feat , it's still High 6-A , so base gremmy and base kenny don't scale to the feat but are still granted High 6-A .

At least that is how i understood it .

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I mean do we even give Skikai Kenpachi any multiplier over base?? He just downscales.

 

[Naeblis495]

didn't he get x7 for being superior to 7 clones gremmy ? Each clones just add one gremmy worth of power .

 

[Damage3245]

didn't he get x7 for being superior to 7 clones gremmy ? Each clones just add one gremmy worth of power .

That shouldn't a valid multiplier. Gremmy didn't multiply his durability by seven times when he had seven clones.

 

[Naeblis495]

That shouldn't a valid multiplier. Gremmy didn't multiply his durability by seven times when he had seven clones.

I'm just stating what i think Shikai kenny have as a multiplier.

if he doesn't have it anymore : Fine .
If he have it but you disagree with it , then you know what to do .

 

[Ovy7]

The OP seems fine to me.

 

[Purgy]

Kenpachi's Shikai multiplier isn't relevant to this thread, it is accepted and thus the scaling is correct.

As already said, Base Kenpachi and Gremmy with no clones scale to 50% of the feat because he is half as strong as Gremmy + one clone who performed the feat.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yes when he makes a clone Gremmy says “my power of imagination doubles” then drops a meteor. So two Gremmy = meteor, one Gremmy = half meteor, seven Gremmy = three halves meteor.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

That shouldn't a valid multiplier. Gremmy didn't multiply his durability by seven times when he had seven clones.

If we wanna get technical Kenpachi tanked a simultaneous explosion from 5 Gremmy so his Shikai should be at least ~5x Gremmy, albeit 7 Gremmy indirectly admit that they can’t imagine anything ShiKen can’t cut which is why I think we say 7x currently.

 

[SilentBob34]

If we wanna get technical Kenpachi tanked a simultaneous explosion from 5 Gremmy so his Shikai should be at least ~5x Gremmy, albeit 7 Gremmy indirectly admit that they can’t imagine anything ShiKen can’t cut which is why I think we say 7x currently.

I don’t wanna get in on this but I kinda agree with Damage.. and saying he tanked them is an overstatement because he was weakened to the point the Quincy girls could easily take him out. It’d be like saying because Ichigo “tanked” Ulquiorra’s cero oscuras he should scale to it when we know he doesn’t.

regardless, it never made sense to me that Kenpachi’s shikai is somehow a higher multiplier than his bankai when it’s been always known that a bankai boost is higher than a shikai boost