Gremmy's Meteor

[Purgy]

I don’t wanna get in on this but I kinda agree with Damage.. and saying he tanked them is an overstatement because he was weakened to the point the Quincy girls could easily take him out. It’d be like saying because Ichigo “tanked” Ulquiorra’s cero oscuras he should scale to it when we know he doesn’t.

It wasn't just the explosion alone that weakened him to that state, it was all the cumulative damage he took throughout their fight, Kenpachi even confirms this after Gremmy "dies".

He basically took zero visible damage from the explosion other than some burns and ruptured eardrums.

regardless, it never made sense to me that Kenpachi’s shikai is somehow a higher multiplier than his bankai when it’s been always known that a bankai boost is higher than a shikai boost

To be fair, if Bleach's Bankai multipliers weren't lowballed to 5x, this wouldn't be the case, his Bankai would be a higher multiplier than his Shikai if we went with the middle value of the stated 5-10x.

Regardless, it's not like his Shikai being given a higher multiplier is going to make the feats invalid, Gremmy with 6 clones couldn't imagine anything Kenpachi couldn't cut and Kenpachi survived those Gremmy's blowing themselves up with minor burns and ruptured eardrums, he would scale.

 

[Damage3245]

He basically took zero visible damage from the explosion other than some burns and ruptured eardrums.

So in other words he didn't take "zero visible damage" from the explosion.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You still take damage to stuff you’re relative too.

Like Aizen and Yama scale to each other and they can harm each other. Let’s not make Kenny and Gremmy scaling to each other more complicated than it has to lol

 

[Purgy]

So in other words he didn't take "zero visible damage" from the explosion.

"He basically took zero visible damage"

You're going to deny him scaling because he had some burns and ruptured eardrums? Wouldn't even be surprised to be honest.

 

[Damage3245]

You're going to deny him scaling because he had some burns and ruptured eardrums?

Not what I said.

I'm just against him getting a 7x multiplier in all stats.

But anyway, we should probably discuss the bit of scaling after the main issue has been finished.

 

[Purgy]

Not what I said.

I'm just against him getting a 7x multiplier in all stats.

He doesn't have a 7x multiplier in all stats though?

His Shikai multiplier is only accepted for AP

 

[LordGinSama]

let's get rid of Multipliers.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

ShiKen > 7 Gremmy according to Gremmy, idrc about if he has a “multiplier” but he scales there.

 

[SilentBob34]

Forgetting about Kenpachi’s shikai multiplier for now, has this been accepted to apply?

 

[Damage3245]

Forgetting about Kenpachi’s shikai multiplier for now, has this been accepted to apply?

Currently, no.

 

[W0NDER3X]

Ugh, I really don't think Gremmy's clones should be used as multipliers in the first place. The way Gremmy describes the advantages of having a clone does not necessarily correlate to sheer power/AP, especially when taking into consideration his ability. I've always viewed it more from another angle - the more clones Gremmy has, the more things he can think of/the more creative ways he can find to kill Kenpachi. This becomes more evident as the fight progresses - Gremmy testing Kanpachi's cutting ability.

Sure, you could say Gremmy meant that his AP doubles and we can downscale Gremmy from 2 Gremmy clones. But what if we use Gremmy's best feat prior to his meteor feat and double its AP? It (probably) won't be anywhere near close to the AP the meteors was packing.

I'm not sure if this is appropriate to be discussed here. If not, I really think it deserves a separate thread.

 

[YukaSama4]

Ugh, I really don't think Gremmy's clones should be used as multipliers in the first place. The way Gremmy describes the advantages of having a clone does not necessarily correlate to sheer power/AP, especially when taking into consideration his ability. I've always viewed it more from another angle - the more clones Gremmy has, the more things he can think of/the more creative ways he can find to kill Kenpachi. This becomes more evident as the fight progresses - Gremmy testing Kanpachi's cutting ability.

Sure, you could say Gremmy meant that his AP doubles and we can downscale Gremmy from 2 Gremmy clones. But what if we use Gremmy's best feat prior to his meteor feat and double its AP? It (probably) won't be anywhere near close to the AP the meteors was packing.

I'm not sure if this is appropriate to be discussed here. If not, I really think it deserves a separate thread.

agree with this, and if we multiplied the meteor feat by 7 it wont be close to his creation feat later, so yeah

 

[PrinceofPein]

there isn't enough evidence that the earthquakes themselves are what would be responsible for the destruction.

this doesn’t give us a specific description of how the Seireitei will be destroyed beyond being “hit by a meteor.” It doesn’t say that he is going to wipe out the Seireitei through earthquakes or what the strength of those hypothetical quakes would be.

These kind of sums up my thought

 

[Naeblis495]

agree with this, and if we multiplied the meteor feat by 7 it wont be close to his creation feat later, so yeah

Wait , does gremmy's Galaxy Room was accepted as a legit galaxy creation feat ?

 

[YukaSama4]

Wait , does gremmy's Galaxy Room was accepted as a legit galaxy creation feat ?

No no no lol, Im just saying my opinion xD

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

These kind of sums up my thought

My and many others current issue with that is two fold:

1) Everyone agrees that the meteor is comparable in size to Seireitei, in damage’s own words “~50%”. Even without calcing, meteor of that size traveling at ablation speeds is leaps and bounds above country level.
2) The current calc uses a ground based explosion formula. I don’t see how you can champion “nothing points to the impact creating seismic shocks that destroy Seireitei” and also support our current calc. Seeing how assuming quakes are caused from a meteor impact is a way less wonky assumption, than assuming the meteor is a ground based explosion.

Pixel scaling and using KE gets you 10^26 to 10^27 joules (High 6-A), the meteor formula gets you 10^25 joules (High 6-A), the ground based explosion formula gets you 10^22 joules (6-B). And if we look at the issues with all three methods: Seireitei’s size is inconsistently drawn, you’d have to assume the meteor would create seismic activity, you have to model the meteor off of a ground based explosion (a meteor and a ground based explosion are two different things). Every calc that models the meteor as a meteor is consistent with each other, but the calc that models the meteor as something it isn’t is far off from everything else.

Just for a comparison, the meteor that killed the dinosaurs was 10s of miles long (~10s of km), and released 10^24 to 10^25 joules of energy. Here we have another ablated meteor that’s 10+ times larger than that meteor, but modeling it as something it’s not (a ground based explosion) to get a country level rating makes sense? If we did the same thing for that Dino killing meteor that we do for Gremmy’s (ground based explosion formula), it would be island level. I think that comparison alone shows that we shouldn’t be using a formula derived for ground based explosions for things other than ground based explosions.

 

[Damage3245]

1) Everyone agrees that the meteor is comparable in size to Seireitei, in damage’s own words “~50%”. Even without calcing, meteor of that size traveling at ablation speeds is leaps and bounds above country level.

If we're suddenly going to be focused on visuals, then I'd have to call this out as being hypocritical (not you specifically). Visuals of the Seireitei are not consistent with our calced size for the Seireitei.

The Naruto verse recently had a prominent calc removed because of inconsistent visuals. This would fall under the same precedent. (Not trying to throw a whataboutism by bringing up other verses. Just mentioning precedent)

2) The current calc uses a ground based explosion formula.

I'm fine with the current calc being removed.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

If we pixel scale the size of Seireitei and then the meteor it still comes out to the 6-A to baseline High 6-A range.

Can I assume you’ll address the second half of my post later?

 

[Damage3245]

Pixel scaling and using KE gets you 10^26 to 10^27 joules (High 6-A), the meteor formula gets you 10^25 joules (High 6-A), the ground based explosion formula gets you 10^22 joules (6-B). And if we look at the issues with all three methods: Seireitei’s size is inconsistently drawn, you’d have to assume the meteor would create seismic activity, you have to model the meteor off of a ground based explosion (a meteor and a ground based explosion are two different things). Every calc that models the meteor as a meteor is consistent with each other, but the calc that models the meteor as something it isn’t is far off from everything else.

By "every calc" you mean two calcs. And whether the two of them being 10x or 100x different than each other doesn't factor into it if the base method for one of them is flawed.

As for what the pixelscaling of the size of the Seireitei gets you, I've seen some results that come out to be High 6-C to 6-B for the meteor as well.

Just for a comparison, the meteor that killed the dinosaurs was 10s of miles long (~10s of km), and released 10^24 to 10^25 joules of energy. Here we have another ablated meteor that’s 10+ times larger than that meteor, but modeling it as something it’s not (a ground based explosion) to get a country level rating makes sense? If we did the same thing for that Dino killing meteor that we do for Gremmy’s (ground based explosion formula), it would be island level. I think that comparison alone shows that we shouldn’t be using a formula derived for ground based explosions for things other than ground based explosions.

I agree with you that the ground-based explosion isn't a great method, and would be fine with removing that calc from the verse page.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I agree with you that the ground-based explosion isn't a great method, and would be fine with removing that calc from the verse page.

And the purpose of this thread is to determine a better method, so let’s continue working forward to that.

Currently, we accept Seireitei is 1000+ km in diameter. And we know the meteor is comparable in size to that 1000+ km structure, enough where it would be in the 10^2 km in diameter (order of magnitude). No pixel scaling is needed for that.

The meteor is also ablated, aka it’s traveling at high speeds. So, we have a meteor that’s ~10^2 km across moving at ablation speeds. I don’t think anyone would argue that a meteor 100s of km across, traveling 1000s of meters per second, isn’t very high into tier 6. Doing some quick napkin math you find it comes to around High 6-A. Which makes perfect sense for a meteor of that size, at those speeds.

However, Seireitei is drawn inconsistently, so we currently don’t use pixel scaling with it. Okay, fine, but regardless we have an area that makes sense. Eyeballing the meteor puts it at High 6-A. So when we do find a calc if it’s massively different than this maybe we should start questioning the calc.

USklav’s calc comes to around baseline High 6-A. This matches the eyeball, okay that’s a good sign. Let’s delve deeper, it assumes the meteor will create seismic shakes. Alright, does that make sense? For a meteor 100s of km wide at 1000s of meters per second speeds? Yes that is well within the realm of reasonable.

The ground based explosion calc comes to 6-B. Woah that’s massively lower than the eyeball suggests, what’s going on? Well as we all agree upon, it uses a ground based explosion formula for something that isn’t a ground based explosion. Well no wonder it’s so off from what intuition would suggest, it’s not even made for meteors.

 

[Damage3245]

I've already agreed that the ground-based explosion calc shouldn't be used.

I stand by what I said further up though and I don't think that Usk's calc should be used either. Being better than the explosion calc is not the sole thing that makes it valid for use to me.

 

[Reio35]

Why don't we give the meteor. The velocity of a actual meteor? Which is 25,000 to 100,000 mph

 

[Cyberblader90]

dont we use ablation speed?

 

[Purgy]

We should yes, though I've seen some staff members here argue that Gremmy only imagined the meteor having fire and stuff because he thought it would look cool or something and it was actually moving far slower than a meteor entering the atmosphere would be, so don't get your hopes up.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’ll ask KT and Mitch and see if they have any insight into what the best method for determining the meteor’s energy.

 

[StrawHatArslan]

I think the current calc is fine, accounting for the entire area

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I think the current calc is fine, accounting for the entire area

The meteor isn’t a ground based explosion…

 

[StrawHatArslan]

The meteor isn’t a ground based explosion…

Alright then

 

[PrinceofPein]

My and many others current issue with that is two fold:

1) Everyone agrees that the meteor is comparable in size to Seireitei, in damage’s own words “~50%”. Even without calcing, meteor of that size traveling at ablation speeds is leaps and bounds above country level.
2) The current calc uses a ground based explosion formula. I don’t see how you can champion “nothing points to the impact creating seismic shocks that destroy Seireitei” and also support our current calc. Seeing how assuming quakes are caused from a meteor impact is a way less wonky assumption, than assuming the meteor is a ground based explosion.

I never said the ground based explosion is better, cause obviously quakes will be caused by any meteor of a large size hitting the ground
My argument is that
1. you will have to assume that what he was referring to in the destruction is the quake and not the destruction and shockwaves from impact
2. How are we sure a quake of 7.8 magnitude actually hit sereitei?

Magnitude	Earthquake Effects
5.5 to 6.0	Slight damage to buildings and other structures.
6.1 to 6.9	May cause a lot of damage in very populated areas.
7.0 to 7.9	Major earthquake. Serious damage.
8.0 or greater	Great earthquake. Can totally destroy communities near the epicenter.

i think what was shown in the reoi death quake was minor damage so pegged at 5.5 - 6.0
3. And was it ever shown all stated that the buildings were made to specially resist quakes? cause i cant remember anything of such
And my major concern,
and why are we scaling gremmy to the potential quakes the meteor may cause instead of scaling him to the size of the meteor he thought of?
I mean aside from him saying he wound survive "I will be the only one left in the rumbles". which will be durability

Pixel scaling and using KE gets you 10^26 to 10^27 joules (High 6-A), the meteor formula gets you 10^25 joules (High 6-A), the ground based explosion formula gets you 10^22 joules (6-B). And if we look at the issues with all three methods: Seireitei’s size is inconsistently drawn, you’d have to assume the meteor would create seismic activity, you have to model the meteor off of a ground based explosion (a meteor and a ground based explosion are two different things). Every calc that models the meteor as a meteor is consistent with each other, but the calc that models the meteor as something it isn’t is far off from everything else.

You do not need to assume it will create quakes, it will definitely create quakes.
But like i said the assumption is that "what gremmy was expecting to obliterate sereitei is the quake and not a big has meteor that already covered half of the town".

Just for a comparison, the meteor that killed the dinosaurs was 10s of miles long (~10s of km), and released 10^24 to 10^25 joules of energy. Here we have another ablated meteor that’s 10+ times larger than that meteor, but modeling it as something it’s not (a ground based explosion) to get a country level rating makes sense? If we did the same thing for that Dino killing meteor that we do for Gremmy’s (ground based explosion formula), it would be island level. I think that comparison alone shows that we shouldn’t be using a formula derived for ground based explosions for things other than ground based explosions.

actually the meteor was just 7 miles or 9 miles iirc, u can check for Chicxulub

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Chicxulub_Impact_Event.

And to compare the two you will have to bring prove they are traveling at the same speed, cause i am sure they will not be travelling at the same speed, as gremmy meteor appeared from the clouds and started dropping unlike travelling of light years at tens of kilometers per second to hit a planet.
For more clarification, hypothetically, a 1 KM meteor travelling at rel - Sol speed would obliterate a planet on impact.
Speed also have a big role to play, so yes you can not compare the two meteors calc.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

And my major concern,
and why are we scaling gremmy to the potential quakes the meteor may cause instead of scaling him to the size of the meteor he thought of?

Because pixel scaling is evil lol. Personally, I’d love if we used the meteor size and KE.

actually the meteor was just 7 miles or 9 miles iirc, u can check for Chicxulub
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Chicxulub_Impact_Event.
And to compare the two you will have to bring prove they are traveling at the same speed, cause i am sure they will not be travelling at the same speed, as gremmy meteor appeared from the clouds and started dropping unlike travelling of light years at tens of kilometers per second to hit a planet.
For more clarification, hypothetically, a 1 KM meteor travelling at rel - Sol speed would obliterate a planet on impact.
Speed also have a big role to play, so yes you can not compare the two meteors calc.

My B, so it’s even smaller than I thought.

So it’s about ~10 km, according to a google search it was traveling at 40 times the speed of sound (13 km/s roughly).

Everyone agrees that Gremmy’s meteor is ~10^2 km across, and is ablated (3 km/s).

Gremmy’s is at least 10 times larger in radius, meaning it’s 1000 times larger in volume, meaning it would have about 1000 times the mass, but it’s about 4 times slower. Being that KE is .5mv^2, Gremmy’s may be 4 times lower (~16 times less energy from raw speed) but it’s so much more massive (1000 times) that it would have more than 50 times as much energy.

Like bro if we could just pixel scale the meteor and call it a day we wouldn’t have this CRT.

 

[Purgy]

But like i said the assumption is that "what gremmy was expecting to obliterate sereitei is the quake and not a big has meteor that already covered half of the town".

So if we agree with the meteor being half of Seireitei without using pixel scaling, then we just go the KE route and get High 6-A anyway.

You can't use the visuals to say;

"It's as big as half the "town" therefore the quakes wouldn't need to be magnitude 7.8 to destroy the remaining buildings that aren't directly touched by the meteor"

And then reject visuals that show it's half the size of Seireitei just to prevent KE from being used.

It's both or neither, which is it?

 

[Purgy]

Is there an actual calc for the meteor using KE?

If not, I think one should be made and added to the OP so that people can decide which they feel is more accurate, because clearly the ground level explosion one is invalid.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Iirc the original calc was KE but I’ll link it in the op

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Personally I think we should use KE like for most Meteor Calcs

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Wait wait wait, why aren’t we using this calc?

Gremmy Meteor (Again)

vsbattles.fandom.com

It doesn’t rely on scaling the meteor to Seireitei via pixel scaling, so it doesn’t have the issue of Seireitei inconsistencies when drawn.

 

[Damage3245]

Like bro if we could just pixel scale the meteor and call it a day we wouldn’t have this CRT.

If we can yeet Yoruichi's statement, I'd be happy to pixel scale the meteor.

It doesn’t rely on scaling the meteor to Seireitei via pixel scaling, so it doesn’t have the issue of Seireitei inconsistencies when drawn.

Exact same issue. It's mixing visuals and statements when I was expressly told by the Bleach fandom that we can't use visuals for this because Kubo is a terrible artist.

 

[JED]

I agree

 

[Purgy]

Wait wait wait, why aren’t we using this calc?

Gremmy Meteor (Again)

vsbattles.fandom.com

It doesn’t rely on scaling the meteor to Seireitei via pixel scaling, so it doesn’t have the issue of Seireitei inconsistencies when drawn.

That was used before, no idea why it was removed though.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

If we can yeet Yoruichi's statement, I'd be happy to pixel scale the meteor.



Exact same issue. It's mixing visuals and statements when I was expressly told by the Bleach fandom that we can't use visuals for this because Kubo is a terrible artist.

No no no, that was specifically for Seireitei’s size not every single drawing in the manga.

That calc doesn’t rely on scaling the meteor to Seireitei’s visuals at all, it only scales the meteor to the accepted size of Seireitei.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Because pixel scaling is evil lol.

Destroyed most of my wanks

Personally, I’d love if we used the meteor size and KE.

Personally thats what i also prefer, since using quakes will result in lots of assumptions being made

My B, so it’s even smaller than I thought.

So it’s about ~10 km, according to a google search it was traveling at 40 times the speed of sound (13 km/s roughly).

Everyone agrees that Gremmy’s meteor is ~10^2 km across, and is ablated (3 km/s).

Gremmy’s is at least 10 times larger in radius, meaning it’s 1000 times larger in volume, meaning it would have about 1000 times the mass, but it’s about 4 times slower. Being that KE is .5mv^2, Gremmy’s may be 4 times lower (~16 times less energy from raw speed) but it’s so much more massive (1000 times) that it would have more than 50 times as much energy.

Like bro if we could just pixel scale the meteor and call it a day we wouldn’t have this CRT.

If you want i can do the calc using the chicxulub impact method

So if we agree with the meteor being half of Seireitei without using pixel scaling, then we just go the KE route and get High 6-A anyway.

i dont think it will get a High 6-A, its likely a 6A feat

You can't use the visuals to say;

And then reject visuals that show it's half the size of Seireitei just to prevent KE from being used.

It's both or neither, which is it?

i Never rejected using the visuals shown tho.

what i rejected was the assumptions involved in using quakes.