Bleach God Tier Calc Update

[Ghostimuscrime]

Floxy asked me to do this since no one else wanted to do it.

Calc Change Thread :

Bleach: Shaking 3 Universes

Here's the feat. Here's thread where it got accepted. This thread should be simple. So problem with using Inverse Square Law for this is that it'll require solar system they're in being destroyed let alone the planet (which obviously didn't happen) . Considering that even room was unaffected...

vsbattles.com

Senjumaru shakes 3 universes : 10.1 GigaFoe (4B)

Spoiler: Characters affected

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ichigo_Kurosaki_(Post-Timeskip)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Soul_King
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Hikone_Ubuginu
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ikomikidomoe
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kugo_Ginjo
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Jugram_Haschwalth
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yhwach
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Uryū_Ishida
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Zaraki_Kenpachi
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Renji_Abarai
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Sosuke_Aizen
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yoruichi_Shihoin
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kisuke_Urahara
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Orihime_Inoue
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ichigo_Kurosaki_(Pre-Timeskip)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Isshin_Kurosaki
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kirio_Hikifune
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Senjumaru_Shutara
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tenjirō_Kirinji
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ōetsu_Nimaiya
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ichibē_Hyōsube
Ayon
Wonderweiss
Hooleer

This includes all the folks that scale to Senjumaru’s stuff and a few peeps scaling off of gremmy feel free to peep this to see the rest of Gremmy's chain here, if I missed any feel free to lmk

Since the feat got nuked the multi solar characters will scale to solar system now
The people that were 10x stronger than the multi solar calc will now be 10x stronger than the solar calc since the old calc was 1.5344936e+65 and the new calc is 1.01e+54, we can divide the old value with the new value to a update-number (151930059406x) that tells us how many times they were weaker and simply divide the numbers on the profiles by this update number to make them reflect the newer ratings without breaking any multipliers or having to recheck everything

Now it is important to address the controversial topic on whether or not Gremmy's scaling chain is an outlier, when it was implemented it relied on the fact that Senjumaru's calc was much stronger and casual. As it got downgraded to be 100 billion times weaker it might cause some ramifications so I’ll just write a section to breakdown the scaling in case a staff not knowledgeable in bleach needs to vote but I won’t engage in any back and forth regarding this, I’ll leave it up entirely upto staff to decide whether or not gremmys stuff should go or stay and be neutral personally.

Spoiler: Outlier or nah

Is Gremmy’s feat an outlier?​

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power?​

Gremmy goes from constructing rockets and Meteors and jumps to the 4A dimension, it is def a big jump from what we are shown and I won’t deny it

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident?​

Kinda, this ability isn’t recreated although pocket dimension feats kinda exist in bleach see here
But this ability from gremmy’s personal arsenal is def a unique incident

3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified?​

Sorta? When gremmy had 2 clones he said his imaginative powers doubled so if 2 makes a meteor and then 7 makes a galaxy, that raises some concerns
The justification you could make is Gremmy regularly doesn’t scale to this and only gets this scaling with the dimension creation and suicide bombing

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling?​

there isnt a hard cap or even a soft one if that is what this question is asking

5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work?​

Not really? I don’t think so

If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards​

The supporting calcs for Zaraki at that point in the story are these

Gran Rey Cero - 16.65 Teratons, up to 2.00 Petatons (Country level, up to Continent level)
Ulquiorra’s Cero Oscuras - 65.08 Teratons, likely 2.00 Petatons (Country level+, likely Continent level)
Yamamoto destroys Soul Society - 1.63 Petatons (Continent level)
Lanza del Relampago - 258.549 Petatons (Multi-Continent level)
Gremmy Summons a Meteor - 4.045 Exatons (Multi-Continent level)
Zaraki Slashes a Meteor - 113.35 Exatons (Moon level)

This giant gap was softened by Senjumaru’s feat being casual and much stronger back when her feat was stronger

Difference between senjumaru and gremmy calc​

Gremmy = 1.688e63
Senjumaru = 1.01e54

Difference = 1.688e63 / 1.01e54 = 1671287128.71 | 1.67e+9 | 1.67 Billion

It’s a bit hard to justify when people beyond zaraki have feats way below this calc so yeah

Some Positives :​

• Senjumaru’s feat was a casual feat​

• We don’t necessarily have to interpret Gremmy’s clones being proportional multipliers because it doesn’t say that’s how it works it just says his imagination power doubled which could be for multitude of reasons, if that is the case then it wouldn’t necessarily be an outlier because of this (If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.) If 7 clones Gremmy is near featless he can’t qualify for an outlier
• It’s gonna make the task of applying changes easier if it stays lol

Now I said I was neutral on the above section but this section below I am actively going to propose

Spoiler: Minor Downgrade

Assuming the gremmy stuff stays, Zaraki should downscale to baseline 4A, He didn’t tank the full yield/volume of the explosion and whatever he did tank injured him immensely, he started bleeding, to the point where several organs were busted up and he outright says his hearing got ****** up. (4 screenshots), he later on was getting beaten up by the femritters (characters that he should be presence stomping normally imo) So it makes no sense to award him with the full yield of the value as if he’s casually face tanked it when he explicitly didn’t do that.

Note : This will only affect 3 characters (Toshiro, Gerard and Zaraki)

Agree :

• Gremmy Calc Leaves : DavidTPPM, Damage3245, Apotheosis69, YmTheSuper, AlternativePrinciple, SilentBob34, Raiden38, Vietthai96, Qawsedf234, LordTracer
• Gremmy Calc Stays : Saqphire, Sigurd, Infinite9Luck, Specterxxxx, Snakes, Apollonir.Scale, ItsMeat, SacredDao, Qawsedf234 (possibly rating), LordTracer (possibly rating), Vietthai96 (possibly rating), Damage3245 (possibly rating), Dalesean027 (possibly rating)

Disagree :
Renji’s a ***** : Sammy 818

 

[Ar1216789]

ok

 

[DragoZeroNova]

I don't know if this works, but Ichibei used to scale to Yhwach. Ichibei was later updated to just 1 key and Yhwach was not updated (I think that was overlooked since it was never brought up. If it was decided somewhere that Yhwach without Almighty doesn't ever scale/downscale in AP from Ichibei, you can ignore the rest of my comment)

Yhwach should probably scale to that as well (As even without the Almighty, he can harm Ichibei) and as thus, everyone would backscale from 4-B if Gremmy scaling is removed. (Note: The web in the OP specifically didn't cover Squad Zero scaling, that was not included in the image)

 

[Crobatman44]

Yhwach's post cour 3 scaling got postponed alongside a few other god tiers like True Shikai Ichigo/sealed nugget king iirc,i know Arc was making a sandbox involving them.

 

[Sammy818]

Renji IS a *****

 

[Sammy818]

Renji IS a *****

“Save my girl for me ichigo ” **** behavior icl

 

[DavidTPPM]

I agree with the Gremmy outlier shenanigans. It's a one-off feat which is not even presented as a feat of strength. The Manga doesn't tell you "wow look, Gremmy created a gajillion stars" but instead focuses purely on him utilizing the properties of the vacuum of space. It's pretty clear why so many normal fans think he just made a portal - the scene is in not portrayed as a feat of power at all. It's basically just powerscalers trying to force it into an upgrade but absolutely isn't even remotely implied in-universe.

If this was a feat of Gremmy vaporizing stars with a punch Saitama-style I would definitely agree the MASSIVE gap between this and the second highest feat he scales to could be dismissable. But when a feat so indirect and vague is meant to upscale a verse by over a billion times and Gremmy himself by trillions of times, I think it's impossible to honestly call it anything but an outlier.

 

[Damage3245]

For the time being, I too am leaning in favor of re-classifying Gremmy's feat as an outlier for the scaling.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Renji IS a *****

Yhwach's post cour 3 scaling got postponed alongside a few other god tiers like True Shikai Ichigo/sealed nugget king iirc,i know Arc was making a sandbox involving them.

I was thinking of simply swapping the numbers by division and letting the actual scaling chains be fixed during Arc’s revisions

This way we can minimize the complications

 

[PedjaTarzan]

shouldnt this thread be finished first?

Fullbring Ichigo AP Downgrade, Hax Upgrade & Shinji's 4-A Ap with Kido

Hax Memory Manipulation Even if Senna is erased from everyone's memories, Ichigo can still remember her. Normally, Ichigo should be erased from his memories, but she wasn't, so he needs resistance. If you're looking to create a profile for a non-canon form like Dark Rukia, I have a great...

vsbattles.com

Anyway for this..why give Kenpachi baseline 4-A dura if Gremmy feat would be considered outlier?

 

[DragoZeroNova]

shouldnt this thread be finished first?

Fullbring Ichigo AP Downgrade, Hax Upgrade & Shinji's 4-A Ap with Kido

Hax Memory Manipulation Even if Senna is erased from everyone's memories, Ichigo can still remember her. Normally, Ichigo should be erased from his memories, but she wasn't, so he needs resistance. If you're looking to create a profile for a non-canon form like Dark Rukia, I have a great...

vsbattles.com

Anyway for this..why give Kenpachi baseline 4-A dura if Gremmy feat would be considered outlier?

The baseline thing would be if Gremmy feat stays
As for the proposal itself, I'm overall neutral. I don't really have the time to write long stuff for this right now, but my reasons for why or why not Gremmy scaling is similar (though not quite the same) as the Outliers or nah section

 

[Apotheosis69]

shouldnt this thread be finished first?

Fullbring Ichigo AP Downgrade, Hax Upgrade & Shinji's 4-A Ap with Kido

Hax Memory Manipulation Even if Senna is erased from everyone's memories, Ichigo can still remember her. Normally, Ichigo should be erased from his memories, but she wasn't, so he needs resistance. If you're looking to create a profile for a non-canon form like Dark Rukia, I have a great...

vsbattles.com

Anyway for this..why give Kenpachi baseline 4-A dura if Gremmy feat would be considered outlier?

Fairly certain that relies on the scaling of Gremmy/Senjumaru in the first place. So this thread should be concluded first, to see if the Gremmy Multi-Solar System chain stays.

To which I agree that it should go.

 

[Saqphire]

Agree with the CRT and disagree with Gremmy's feat being removed. The pro points already raised most of why I think it should stay but also the original thread talks about how Yamamoto's Bankai couldn't be sealed by anyone other than Base Yhwach who we already accept scales above Gremmy

Gremmy himself is arguably stronger than Squad Zero via multitudes of statements for him personally and Zaraki was said to equal Base Yhwach by Unohana aswell, the same Zaraki who didn't get obliterated by the space explosion

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Gremmy’s calc and scaling chain stays. It’s stated in every medium and the anime that he created a separate space. He is also hailed as the strongest Quincy besides Yhwach.

Senjumaru’s feat being downgraded shouldn’t mean anything at all when her feat is as casual as waving her hand as stated. She can simply scale to him.

His power is reality warping with the limit on what his mind is capable of imagining and that current limit is a cosmic space. Characters don’t neee to say “wow look at all those stars in that space!!!” For it to be legit or punch random stars like Saitama. It’s insane to me how some people think he simply created a portal. Kubo even drew a sketch of what Gremmy was thinking and it’s a place filled with planets and etc lol.

 

[Damage3245]

Gremmy imagining stars and deep space is one thing. It's trying to scale that power to him imagining a 4-B level explosion that I take issue with.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Gremmy imagining stars and deep space is one thing. It's trying to scale that power to him imagining a 4-B level explosion that I take issue with.

Each Gremmy amplifies his imagination (whatever that means) so if he can create a cosmic space with 5-6 clones that means anything higher requires more imaginative force. How is that an issue outside of the explosion not deleting the Bleachverse which isn’t an issue at all?

I deadass don’t understand this point. It’s scaling 101. He either heavily injured Kenpachi with a visually building level attack or it’s just simple AP scaling which is most of Bleach and the attack carried a greater potency compared to his previous display of power that required less Gremmy’s to do?

 

[AmonInChains]

Each Gremmy amplifies his imagination (whatever that means) so if he can create a cosmic space with 5-6 clones that means anything higher requires more imaginative force. How is that an issue outside of the explosion not deleting the Bleachverse which isn’t an issue at all?

A minor thing compared to what is currently discussed, but in case the scale stays, shouldn't this being divided by 6-7 since yk, we list single outputs of energy?

 

[DragoZeroNova]

I know Yhwach scaling is postponed, but if we're going to adjust the numbers, then that should still mean we're using previous scaling (Unless these changes come out this month or something).

My proposal (if Gremmy scaling is axed) is to have Yhwach scale to Ichibe, who as I stated my previous post is currently scaling to that 4-B value. First, he does fight Ichibe and does do damage to him (Bleach TYBW episode 25 5:40-6:00) and his Blut technique blocks one of his Kido spells (Bleach TYBW episode 26 6:35-7:00), forcing Ichibe to use a Secret Hado. In addition, throughout both episodes, he clashes weapons with Ichibe multiple times.

If we were to just scale Yhwach to Yamamoto and say Ichibe doesn't scale to him, that would lead to one of the issues this thread talks about in regards to Senjumaru scaling: The numerical difference. The difference between Yhwach and Ichibe would be about 2.4e+24 or about
2,400,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (Give or take 1 or 2 zeros I'm not that good with this kind of stuff, someone can probably figure out the actual difference).

This is because Yhwach would scale to Yamamoto's ~500 Exatons compared to Ichibe's 10.1 Gigafoe.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

As far as I'm aware, you have all the Squad Zero scaling, but for the Gremmy scaling, there are a few people missing (and they weren't ever on the web).
Ayon
Wonderweiss (Added later)
Hooleer (I'm sure someone will make a CRT to get this removed at some point)

 

[YmTheSuper]

I think the Gremmy feat should be removed not just because of the outlier reasoning but for other additional reasons. (I used some manga scans for convenience but i made sure of their existence in the anime.)

Scaling all the showings of Visionary to each other is debatable considering the fact that Kenpachi was easily able to cut Gremmy's body in base (which is made by his visionary and also amplified consciousnessly by it durability wise) while he needed to use his shikai to cut the meteor (which while yes was made by 2 Gremmys he directly mentioned that creating a clone makes the power of his imagination double not grow exponentially) and the case should be similar for the explosion that the 7 Gremmys make after creating outerspace who shouldn't be exponentially stronger considering Gremmy's power with his clones seems to scale linearly not make him astronomically stronger. (Also there's the fact that Gremmy damaged Kenpachi with the explosion that he imagined while the body he made with his imagination couldn't handle Kenpachi's power leading to his death and the fact that Guenael Lee who is a creation of Gremmy got injured by Yachiru who scales much lower than Gremmy's other feats)

We already also have other techniques in the series that are similar but don't scale to each other like Kido that get stronger the higher the number or special attacks like Cero or Getsuga Tenshou, etc...

There's also the fact that creation feats are treated differently and do not normally scale to AP only for exceptions like UES and considering we already don't scale the physicals (High 6-A) and Visionary (4-A) to each other (when Gremmy's body is a product of his imagination) then it's not absurd to scale the space creation feat that is astronomically higher than any of his other showing to be considered its own feat listed as creation. (This would also make more sense than Kenpachi suddenly jumping from High 6-A to 4-A by releasing his Shikai)

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I think the Gremmy feat should be removed not just because of the outlier reasoning but for other additional reasons. (I used some manga scans for convenience but i made sure of their existence in the anime.)

Scaling all the showings of Visionary to each other is debatable considering the fact that Kenpachi was easily able to cut Gremmy's body in base (which is made by his visionary and also amplified consciousnessly by it durability wise) while he needed to use his shikai to cut the meteor (which while yes was made by 2 Gremmys he directly mentioned that creating a clone makes the power of his imagination double not grow exponentially) and the case should be similar for the explosion that the 7 Gremmys make after creating outerspace who shouldn't be exponentially stronger considering Gremmy's power with his clones seems to scale linearly not make him astronomically stronger. (Also there's the fact that Gremmy damaged Kenpachi with the explosion that he imagined while the body he made with his imagination couldn't handle Kenpachi's power leading to his death and the fact that Guenael Lee who is a creation of Gremmy got injured by Yachiru who scales much lower than Gremmy's other feats)

We already also have other techniques in the series that are similar but don't scale to each other like Kido that get stronger the higher the number or special attacks like Cero or Getsuga Tenshou, etc...

There's also the fact that creation feats are treated differently and do not normally scale to AP only for exceptions like UES and considering we already don't scale the physicals (High 6-A) and Visionary (4-A) to each other (when Gremmy's body is a product of his imagination) then it's not absurd to scale the space creation feat that is astronomically higher than any of his other showing to be considered its own feat listed as creation. (This would also make more sense than Kenpachi suddenly jumping from High 6-A to 4-A by releasing his Shikai)

A large portion, if not all, of these points have already been discussed extensively in the main thread, and they’ve been refuted countless times. Not to mention Schrifts are indeed under UES.

The outlier argument requires actual proof; otherwise, a feat remains a feat. Senjumaru’s feat may have been downgraded, but it still stands as a casual 4-B level showing, which continues to support a cosmically scaled narrative.

Dwelling on statements like “but now it’s a million times weaker” is meaningless, by that logic, you could dismiss any power progression, even when a town-level character evolves into a country-level one.

I agree with the Gremmy outlier shenanigans. It's a one-off feat which is not even presented as a feat of strength. The Manga doesn't tell you "wow look, Gremmy created a gajillion stars" but instead focuses purely on him utilizing the properties of the vacuum of space. It's pretty clear why so many normal fans think he just made a portal - the scene is in not portrayed as a feat of power at all.

...

It's actually portrayed like that, multiple times, it has never been stated to be a portal, that’s purely a fan headcanon. Official material describes the feat as impressive precisely because he can create outer space itself. Gremmy cannot even create portals. Gremmy materializes what he imagines, he never once created a portal. He brought into existence water, guns, meteors, and indeed, space itself.

Honestly, what’s the point of getting a CRT accepted if people simply ignore what has already been approved? Let’s have a proper debate, address every argument that has been formally accepted so I can respond accordingly.

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

I agree with the Gremmy outlier shenanigans. It's a one-off feat which is not even presented as a feat of strength. The Manga doesn't tell you "wow look, Gremmy created a gajillion stars" but instead focuses purely on him utilizing the properties of the vacuum of space. It's pretty clear why so many normal fans think he just made a portal - the scene is in not portrayed as a feat of power at all. It's basically just powerscalers trying to force it into an upgrade but absolutely isn't even remotely implied in-universe.

If this was a feat of Gremmy vaporizing stars with a punch Saitama-style I would definitely agree the MASSIVE gap between this and the second highest feat he scales to could be dismissable. But when a feat so indirect and vague is meant to upscale a verse by over a billion times and Gremmy himself by trillions of times, I think it's impossible to honestly call it anything but an outlier.

Couldn’t have said it any better

 

[DavidTPPM]

It's actually portrayed like that, multiple times,

Neither of these portray it as a feat of strength. The first panel just states he can create space (technically speaking it doesn't even say he did create space), not that it's some impressive feat of strength.

The second is even worse because it also mentions him making fire arms, debris, and a meteor. If that scan is meant to "portray his creations as impressive feats of strength" then it directly proves the outlier argument by portraying debris, meteors, and water as impressive feats of strength. And if 5C and below feats are impressive, a 4A feat is completely absurd.

And neither of these are even in the manga or anime themselves.

it has never been stated to be a portal, that’s purely a fan headcanon.

I said most casual fans interpret it like that because that's how it's portrayed. Not that it's stated to be a portal.

I feel like you're missing my point here. What I'm saying is not that Gremmy didn't create his space. I'm saying that we're looking at the feat in a way that was not intended at all which is why it creates outliers in our scaling.

Honestly, what’s the point of getting a CRT accepted if people simply ignore what has already been approved?

What was already approved for YEARS is that the feat is clearly an outlier that doesn't scale to stats to the point a discussion rule had to be made, which was only changed because another even higher 4A feat appeared.

That is no longer the case. So if anyone's trying to change what's approved it's you…

 

[Specterxxxx]

Neither of these portray it as a feat of strength. The first panel just states he can create space (technically speaking it doesn't even say he did create space)

(Technically speaking, this is a poor argument and its just you arguing semantics)

, not that it's some impressive feat of strength

It was in the context in the novels, because it was a following statement after gremmy was stated to be the strongest sternritter to which the character then goes on furthermore, to list the feats that gremmy (being the strongest sternritter) had done as a feat of power. So it definitely was impressive feat of strength to shunsui.

The second is even worse because it also mentions him making fire arms, debris, and a meteor.

how does this makes this worse cause I don't see this being significant here.

If that scan is meant to "portray his creations as impressive feats of strength" then it directly proves the outlier argument by portraying debris, meteors, and water as impressive feats of strength.

It doesn't, because those were not talked about when gremmy was mentioned in the novels only the meteor and outerspace were because those came from the apex of his true power his visionary amps.

And if 5C and below feats are impressive, a 4A feat is completely absurd

None of those feats are 5C AP wise nor were they impressive nor do they make a 4A jump in power as a result of exponential clone amps absurd.

And neither of these are even in the manga or anime themselves.

I said most casual fans interpret it like that because that's how it's portrayed. Not that it's stated to be a portal.

Right so this is irrelevant.

I feel like you're missing my point here. What I'm saying is not that Gremmy didn't create his space. I'm saying that we're looking at the feat in a way that was not intended at all which is why it creates outliers in our scaling.

But it was intended.

What was already approved for YEARS is that the feat is clearly an outlier that doesn't scale to stats to the point a discussion rule had to be made, which was only changed because another even higher 4A feat appeared.

That is no longer the case. So if anyone's trying to change what's approved it's you…

You are taking the overall chain of argumentation of infinite's accepted post out of context or not understanding the main point. The point of what he was saying was that the senjumaru feat was of cosmic scale like gremmy's not that it was 4A the only reason 4A was mentioned was because the COSMIC feat that was a relevant elaboration of gremmy's 4A scaling also happened to be 4A (Albiet prolly made the reasonings more logical). A 4B feat is still of cosmic scale and in the case can still be used as a supporting feat since the context of both feats do not contradict power consistencies in the verse.

 

[DavidTPPM]

(Technically speaking, this is a poor argument and its just you arguing semantics)

Yes arguments that entirely depend on vague statements do tend to require you to "argue semantics"

It was in the context in the novels, because it was a following statement after gremmy was stated to be the strongest sternritter to which the character then goes on furthermore, to list the feats that gremmy (being the strongest sternritter) had done as a feat of power. So it definitely was impressive feat of strength to shunsui.

If it was meant to be impressive in terms of strength and not in terms of hax why does it mention him creating space and not stars?

Saying he can "create outer space" is an impressive hax because majority of Bleach characters can't survive in space.

how does this makes this worse cause I don't see this being significant here.

I explained exactly how it makes it worse…

It doesn't, because those were not talked about when gremmy was mentioned in the novels only the meteor and outerspace were because those came from the apex of his true power his visionary amps.

Huh???? What kind of cherry picking is this? I was talking about the SECOND scan of the guidebook or whatever it was. Which DOES mention all of the other stuff in the same context and same sentence as the space creation.

My point here explicitly being that if that SECOND scan is meant to be portraying the space creation as an impressive feat of strength then it also portrays all the other stuff as equally impressive.

My argument here was completely independent of the novel. The novel has no weight on what I'm saying in that part of the reply.

None of those feats are 5C AP wise

You're right it's only H6-A, so even lower.

nor were they impressive

I'm sorry but you're either the most disingenuous person ever or you simply didn't check what you're replying to.

My point is extremely clear if you read what I'm replying to. If THE SECOND scan is portraying the space creation as an impressive feat of strength then it's also doing that for all the other stuff mentioned in the same sentence in the same context.

nor do they make a 4A jump in power as a result of exponential clone amps absurd.

Just read what I'm actually saying and replying to please.

Right so this is irrelevant.

Yes that's exactly my point. At worst the scan is irrelevant to the argument and at worst it's actually detrimental as it supports the "feat" either being an outlier or being hax - depending on your interpretation.

But it was intended.

Can you please specify which part of Gremmy using space to suffocate Kenny gives you the author intentions of "Wowza this kid is actually trillions of times stronger than we thought and can nuke thousands of stars"?

You are taking the overall chain of argumentation of infinite's accepted post out of context or not understanding the main point. The point of what he was saying was that the senjumaru feat was of cosmic scale like gremmy's not that it was 4A the only reason 4A was mentioned was because the COSMIC feat that was a relevant elaboration of gremmy's 4A scaling also happened to be 4A (Albiet prolly made the reasonings more logical). A 4B feat is still of cosmic scale and in the case can still be used as a supporting feat since the context of both feats do not contradict power consistencies in the verse.

A feat being of "cosmic proportions" is a vague and completely arbitrary rule. A low 4-C feat which was present before the Senjumaru feat is also "of cosmic proportions" yet it wasn't enough to justify this not being an outlier.

And yes a 4B feat can be supportive. Of course with tiers like 4B and 4A which have hundreds of millions of times baseline-peak difference it's going to be difficult to really get feats with results extremely close to each other. But that gets you the question of, is it an outlier because the gap between the tiers is that big, or is it an outlier because we're trying to force stats onto a hax ability?

That's why I said, if the feat was Gremmy Saitama-style punching out a chunk of the galaxy the outlier results would be tolerable as the feat is so direct it's undeniable he scales to it physically. But when the "feat" is using a subjective reality hax then it no longer stands on that solid ground. Like this it becomes far more plausible that the outlier is caused by a faulty interpretation rather than the gap between tiers just being so large. Especially with context like Gremmy simply just trying to suffocate Kenny

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

BLEACH: Gremmy upgrade

I have read discussion rules regarding this matter, and this is what it's stated: Do not attempt to upgrade Gremmy Thoumeaux based on his feat of creating outer space, as this feat, despite legitimately scaling to his statistics, is extremely inconsistent with his general performance and the...

vsbattles.com

I’m not seeing anything new from the against side so far. The only thing that should be argued here is if another calc being lowered make Gremmy’s feat an outlier within the context of Bleach.

Not wether if it meets the creation feat standards, if it meets UES requirements, or if it’s a feat. All that was discussed already.

 

[Damage3245]

If doesn't matter if it was discussed already, people can still be unconvinced by it and against it.

 

[SilentBob34]

If doesn't matter if it was discussed already, people can still be unconvinced by it and against it.

honestly, I’m surprised a discussion rule has never been put in place about Gremmy’s feat. The only reason it wasn’t deemed an outlier anymore was because the anime gave us a feat(by a far stronger person) around the same level.

It’s like saying if a town level character performed a planet level feat that made no sense powerscaling wise, but because a God tier character performs a similar feat it justifies the town level character’s feat as legit and now they’re the same level as the God tier character.

Probably a terrible example but that’s just how I view it personally

 

[Snakes]

I truly see no good reason as to why the Gremmy feat should be an outlier. It's the soul kings brain the man that has "transcended everything". Gremmy is one of the strongest people in the cast of villiains in the final arc. Where the stake is the existence of several universes. It makes perfect sense for him to be incredibly strong.

Him using a meteor also doesn't contradict anything. It's not just a regular meteor. It's designed to kill Kenpachi a character that is way above country level or whatever the yield would be. It's so strong that Haschwalt a very stoic character loses his composure. While being perfectly calm when Yamamoto released his bankai.

Gremmy using all his imagination for just a portal also doesn't make sense. As fodder holos can do that. We see Gremmy wrap Kenpachi in the void of outer space. It's a massive feat obviously a display of power.

Other characters not being able to perform feats on that level doesn't entail a contradiction. It simply means they're not as powerful as him.

Besides that I agree with the op

 

[Specterxxxx]

Yes arguments that entirely depend on vague statements do tend to require you to "argue semantics"

Except this isn't the case here, there are no vague statements this is consistently shown that gremmy did in fact create outerspace with every thing in it, just like he created the missiles with will real working components inside it. So if the things inside the missiles were also real, then that logic would extend to the meteor. You are the one that needs to prove why gremmy's stars are not real not the other way around.

If it was meant to be impressive in terms of strength and not in terms of hax why does it mention him creating space and not stars?

Because he didn't just create stars???? He created outerspace which encompasses stars and OTHER celestial bodies as well too. So why would it mention him creating stars when creating outerspace is the bigger feat since it contains stars and other things.

Saying he can "create outer space" is an impressive hax because majority of Bleach characters can't survive in space.

Majority of Bleach can't survive many other things as well lol how is a vacuum supposed to be important? and if it was just highlighting how people can't survive space through the text then it would have been worded differently because I see no reason as to why the word "create" would be there when it can just say gremmy has the ability to seal people in outerspace but it doesn't say that it says "create" multiple times.

if you yourself were to imagine outerspace right now you would most likely imagine stars and planets in black vacuum system as well this is basic logic and anything gremmy imagines becomes a reality so why wouldn't the stars in the outerspace HE CREATED be reality as well?

I explained exactly how it makes it worse…

And I said I didn't see significance of how that affects anything.

Huh???? What kind of cherry picking is this? I was talking about the SECOND scan of the guidebook or whatever it was.

You are literally the one cherry picking, the essence of my point was to point out the novels do not focus on the other stuff nor does the end sketches of kubo because the outerspace was the apex of his power. you are the one using one instance here when you should be collectively using every instance to form a conclusion.

Which DOES mention all of the other stuff in the same context and same sentence as the space creation.

Which doesn't override multiple other sources NOT doing that and also understand that the essence of that text was to list all the things gremmy can do with the visionary and it puts the meteor and the outerspace feat last because those were the bigger feats. All those things listed were his feats just because they are in the same sentence doesn't help your argument because they were definitely NOT on the same level.

My point here explicitly being that if that SECOND scan is meant to be portraying the space creation as an impressive feat of strength then it also portrays all the other stuff as equally impressive.

No it doesn't, the text explicitly uses "or even a giant meteor and outerspace" the term even in true context, is meant to be an adverb that implies an extreme example of what the visionary is capable of doing compared to other feats such as the debris and water seal. The fact that this term comes after the other feats were listed MEANS THEY ARE NOT ON THE SAME LEVEL so they are not equally impressive even in that scan.

Furthermore, this goes along with gremmy's own words when he says the power to exponentially increase his power by adding more clones would mean anything he does with clones should superseed anything he does without them and the only things he does with this power is the meteor and the outerspace which again is why the text highlights this two on a greater degree.

My argument here was completely independent of the novel. The novel has no weight on what I'm saying in that part of the reply.

Well It should have been and that is my argument because you didn't address every statement on the feat but rather cherry picked a scan that still doesn't prove your point.

You're right it's only H6-A, so even lower.

You knows what's lower? Yama passive aura is calculated to be 6A yet his passive aura is still 4A in the profiles even if changes was applied it would be still way higher than the calculated version and secondly, that doesn't mean 6A was the apex of what two clones gremmy could do cause even with another clone, he was unquantifiably higher than feats he achieved except the explosion so on site calculations of this feat should not disprove a more powerful gremmy feat that supercedes earlier versions of gremmy who was already unquantifiably stronger than his earlier feats even while doing them.

I'm sorry but you're either the most disingenuous person ever or you simply didn't check what you're replying to.

My point is extremely clear if you read what I'm replying to. If THE SECOND scan is portraying the space creation as an impressive feat of strength then it's also doing that for all the other stuff mentioned in the same sentence in the same context.

Then your point is illogical and disingenuous and I have addressed so.

Just read what I'm actually saying and replying to please.

I do know what you are talking about already there is no need.

Yes that's exactly my point. At worst the scan is irrelevant to the argument and at worst it's actually detrimental as it supports the "feat" either being an outlier or being hax - depending on your interpretation.

Not at all, the scan is still quite relevant you are just not interpreting it as you should. It doesn't make it hax for the same reasons his meteor wasn't just hax or any other thing he conjured.

Can you please specify which part of Gremmy using space to suffocate Kenny gives you the author intentions of "Wowza this kid is actually trillions of times stronger than we thought and can nuke thousands of stars"?

Simple;

• The part where gremmy literally imagines anything to be a reality which is backed up by inner section of his conjured missiles after being sliced in half by kenpachi, showing real life missile components which means his imagination are as intricate, detailed and real as the real thing which would logically include the outerspace he created being as intricate and detailed as a real outerspace.
• The part where the outerspace feat is consistently depicted when talking about gremmy e.g kubo's end sketches, the novels, that scan you misinterpreted. All depict the outerspace feat as a big deal and the part where it is used to cement the fact he is strongest sternritter with said particular feat.
• The part that prior to this feat, gremmy was exponentially boosted with 6 other clones which justifies the trillions of times difference with his other versions.

The only argument you can make is the outlier argument but the burden of proof of that outerspace not being a 4A feat falls on you to prove and so far all you have done is misinterprete scans.

A feat being of "cosmic proportions" is a vague and completely arbitrary rule. A low 4-C feat which was present before the Senjumaru feat is also "of cosmic proportions" yet it wasn't enough to justify this not being an outlier.

The reason the low 4C feat didn't justify it not being an outlier was because the low 4C feat (which should be a universal feat imo) was achieved by using a huge amount of energy basically everything senna could access from the blanks to achieve at the cost of her life and at the time senna was considered a god tier while gremmy wasn't. Which is a far different context than this. If senna easily achieved the feat with a casual thought then it would have been supporting feat as well for the same very reason Senjumaru's is a supporting feat.

Secondly the gap between a solar system and multi solar system is nigh insignificant compared to the gap between multi solar and low star level adding this knowledge with the context of both feats justifies both feats and should remove outlier Concerns.

And yes a 4B feat can be supportive. Of course with tiers like 4B and 4A which have hundreds of millions of times baseline-peak difference it's going to be difficult to really get feats with results extremely close to each other. But that gets you the question of, is it an outlier because the gap between the tiers is that big, or is it an outlier because we're trying to force stats onto a hax ability?

It isn't an outlier for any of the following reasons you called because it isn't dependent on the hax itself nor is the gap between tiers particularly large when considering context of both feats.

That's why I said, if the feat was Gremmy Saitama-style punching out a chunk of the galaxy the outlier results would be tolerable as the feat is so direct it's undeniable he scales to it physically.

And this is the foundation of your problem.

But when the "feat" is using a subjective reality hax then it no longer stands on that solid ground.

A subjective reality hax that is fueled and completely dependent on massive spiritual energy most likely reikoryu would indicate the feat was achieved under UES and thus should stand on solid ground.

Like this it becomes far more plausible that the outlier is caused by a faulty interpretation rather than the gap between tiers just being so large. Especially with context like Gremmy simply just trying to suffocate Kenny

There is no faulty interpretation here but yours my friend especially when you are using one scan that you didn't properly digest before using it to disprove multiple other scans that support the opposite of your interpretation. This is a 4A feat that is a fueled by spiritual energy and gremmy would scale.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I don't know if anyone has written this before me, but if Gremmy's 4-A isn't completely removed, Base Yhwach should be scaled to it. In the Q&A, it was stated that Yhwach wouldn't be affected by the V-character because he's much stronger than Gremmy.

I also disagree with the complete removal of Gremmy's feat. I understand you think he should be downgraded because he's considered weaker than Senjumaru, but I think Gremmy is stronger than Senjumaru.

To clarify, SAFWY Zaraki can defeat Azashiro. Azashiro defeated Kuruyashiki in a match. Kuruyashiki was invited to Squad Zero because of his strength, but he declined. Therefore, Kuruyashiki, Azashiro, and SAFWY Zaraki should be at least 4-B. Unohana, Gremmy, Pernida, Gerard, and Adult Toshiro would be 4-A. Considering that Zaraki even surpassed Ichibei in CFYOW, this wouldn't be an exaggeration. Of course, assuming that Zaraki would scale to Gremmy's 4-A due to tanking the explosion... I think this has been objected to. Then it's okay, TYBW Zaraki and those who scale to him would have a Raw AP-Durability of 4-B. Gremmy would be 4-A with the schrift. Base Yhwach, who scales to Gremmy's Schrift, and Ichibei, who also scale to him, Yamamoto would be 4-A. Yamamoto would only be scaled to Wonderweiss and Pre Hogyoku Aizen.

 

[Raiden38]

Floxy asked me to do this since no one else wanted to do it.

Calc Change Thread :

Bleach: Shaking 3 Universes

Here's the feat. Here's thread where it got accepted. This thread should be simple. So problem with using Inverse Square Law for this is that it'll require solar system they're in being destroyed let alone the planet (which obviously didn't happen) . Considering that even room was unaffected...

vsbattles.com

Senjumaru shakes 3 universes : 10.1 GigaFoe (4B)

Spoiler: Characters affected

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ichigo_Kurosaki_(Post-Timeskip)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Soul_King
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Hikone_Ubuginu
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ikomikidomoe
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kugo_Ginjo
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Jugram_Haschwalth
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yhwach
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Uryū_Ishida
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Zaraki_Kenpachi
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Renji_Abarai
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Sosuke_Aizen
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yoruichi_Shihoin
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kisuke_Urahara
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Orihime_Inoue
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ichigo_Kurosaki_(Pre-Timeskip)
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Isshin_Kurosaki
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Kirio_Hikifune
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Senjumaru_Shutara
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tenjirō_Kirinji
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ōetsu_Nimaiya
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ichibē_Hyōsube
Ayon
Wonderweiss
Hooleer

This includes all the folks that scale to Senjumaru’s stuff and a few peeps scaling off of gremmy feel free to peep this to see the rest of Gremmy's chain here, if I missed any feel free to lmk

Since the feat got nuked the multi solar characters will scale to solar system now
The people that were 10x stronger than the multi solar calc will now be 10x stronger than the solar calc since the old calc was 1.5344936e+65 and the new calc is 1.01e+54, we can divide the old value with the new value to a update-number (151930059406x) that tells us how many times they were weaker and simply divide the numbers on the profiles by this update number to make them reflect the newer ratings without breaking any multipliers or having to recheck everything

Now it is important to address the controversial topic on whether or not Gremmy's scaling chain is an outlier, when it was implemented it relied on the fact that Senjumaru's calc was much stronger and casual. As it got downgraded to be 100 billion times weaker it might cause some ramifications so I’ll just write a section to breakdown the scaling in case a staff not knowledgeable in bleach needs to vote but I won’t engage in any back and forth regarding this, I’ll leave it up entirely upto staff to decide whether or not gremmys stuff should go or stay and be neutral personally.

Spoiler: Outlier or nah

Is Gremmy’s feat an outlier?​

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power?​

Gremmy goes from constructing rockets and Meteors and jumps to the 4A dimension, it is def a big jump from what we are shown and I won’t deny it

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident?​

Kinda, this ability isn’t recreated although pocket dimension feats kinda exist in bleach see here
But this ability from gremmy’s personal arsenal is def a unique incident

3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified?​

Sorta? When gremmy had 2 clones he said his imaginative powers doubled so if 2 makes a meteor and then 7 makes a galaxy, that raises some concerns
The justification you could make is Gremmy regularly doesn’t scale to this and only gets this scaling with the dimension creation and suicide bombing

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling?​

there isnt a hard cap or even a soft one if that is what this question is asking

5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work?​

Not really? I don’t think so

If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards​

The supporting calcs for Zaraki at that point in the story are these

Gran Rey Cero - 16.65 Teratons, up to 2.00 Petatons (Country level, up to Continent level)
Ulquiorra’s Cero Oscuras - 65.08 Teratons, likely 2.00 Petatons (Country level+, likely Continent level)
Yamamoto destroys Soul Society - 1.63 Petatons (Continent level)
Lanza del Relampago - 258.549 Petatons (Multi-Continent level)
Gremmy Summons a Meteor - 4.045 Exatons (Multi-Continent level)
Zaraki Slashes a Meteor - 113.35 Exatons (Moon level)

This giant gap was softened by Senjumaru’s feat being casual and much stronger back when her feat was stronger

Difference between senjumaru and gremmy calc​

Gremmy = 1.688e63
Senjumaru = 1.01e54

Difference = 1.688e63 / 1.01e54 = 1671287128.71 | 1.67e+9 | 1.67 Billion

It’s a bit hard to justify when people beyond zaraki have feats way below this calc so yeah

Some Positives :​

• Senjumaru’s feat was a casual feat​

• We don’t necessarily have to interpret Gremmy’s clones being proportional multipliers because it doesn’t say that’s how it works it just says his imagination power doubled which could be for multitude of reasons, if that is the case then it wouldn’t necessarily be an outlier because of this (If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.) If 7 clones Gremmy is near featless he can’t qualify for an outlier
• It’s gonna make the task of applying changes easier if it stays lol

Now I said I was neutral on the above section but this section below I am actively going to propose

Spoiler: Minor Downgrade

Assuming the gremmy stuff stays, Zaraki should downscale to baseline 4A, He didn’t tank the full yield/volume of the explosion and whatever he did tank injured him immensely, he started bleeding, to the point where several organs were busted up and he outright says his hearing got ****** up. (4 screenshots), he later on was getting beaten up by the femritters (characters that he should be presence stomping normally imo) So it makes no sense to award him with the full yield of the value as if he’s casually face tanked it when he explicitly didn’t do that.

Note : This will only affect 3 characters (Toshiro, Gerard and Zaraki)

Agree :

• Gremmy Calc Leaves : DavidTPPM, Damage3245, Apotheosis69, YmTheSuper, AlternativePrinciple, SilentBob34
• Gremmy Calc Stays : Saqphire, Sigurd, Infinite9Luck, Specterxxxx, Snakes

Disagree :
Renji’s a ***** : Sammy 818

I agree with the removal of Gremmy's calculation

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I'm a bit confused why people are using Gremmy being the strongest as defensive argument for him when that title exists because of his reality warping hax not because of how hard he punches, his signature moves are stuff like Death Hax, Cookie-fying bodies, Space-BFR & Enclosing enemies in water, the only time he's ever used the visionary for stat based advantage is when he shot rockets, bombs and summoned a high-6a meteor

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I'm a bit confused why people are using Gremmy being the strongest as defensive argument for him when that title exists because of his reality warping hax not because of how hard he punches, his signature moves are stuff like Death Hax, Cookie-fying bodies, Space-BFR & Enclosing enemies in water, the only time he's ever used the visionary for stat based advantage is when he shot rockets, bombs and summoned a high-6a meteor

Because he’s the strongest? I don’t get it. If he wanted to punch harder with his power he can do that too…

He imagined Kenpachi’s brutish strength right before he killed himself by accident.

 

[ItsMeat]

The gremmy feat should actually stay and here is why:

The meteor argument is pure bs, there is no reason to assume that's a cap. For all we know, the thing about this meteor is that gremmy imagined it will kill everyone except him, which is a pretty hard thing to imagine ngl, hence needing to double the power of his imagination. This is something I wanted to make a CRT about, but gremmy has Fate Mnaipulation via Subjective Reality. Another example: by "unimagining" his death, he can make it so he will no longer die. Of course, he died and the meteor never landed in the first place but this is because of Bleach characters' ability to change the future by evolving in battles used by zaraki who unleashes his shikai for the first time.

I will copy paste a section from a reddit post about gremmy scaling to that outer space:

"With everyone who fight using spirit energy (ie Shinigamis & Quincies) use this very spirit energy as fuel for their techniques/abilties, & also the fact that Gremmy created this instantaneously, meaning the Outer space instant creation scales to his AP + in bleach your body needs to be durable enough to hold your own reiatsu & reiryoku, or else your bones will be crushed, your body would be torn apart by your own energy, (not to mention the fact that both his body and his outer space creation feat are likewise creations of his own power of imagination), so it does scale to his Durability too."

I will add the fact that creating that outer space was a simple task for him, but imagining he has zaraki's strength literally killed him because he failed to imagine a body strong enough to withstand it.

These being said, I believe op worded well the first 3 outlier crieterias as "kinda". Massive disagree with having the gremmy feat gone

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Because he’s the strongest? I don’t get it. If he wanted to punch harder with his power he can do that too…

He imagined Kenpachi’s brutish strength right before he killed himself by accident.

He can yeah, that doesn’t mean the title stems from that

It stems from the deadly applications of his hax that 99% of the verse has no counter for

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

He can yeah, that doesn’t mean the title stems from that

It stems from the deadly applications of his hax that 99% of the verse has no counter for

He is strongest because his power has nigh infinite applications. He can kill you with a thought like you said but he can also conjure structure like meteors, create stellar sized spaces( with the help of additional Gremmy’s), and create life. Although the statement of him being the strongest isn’t that important anyways.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Bro just agreed

You said what I said but additionally believe it has stat-based applications which I’m obv fine with

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Bro just agreed

You said what I said but additionally believe it has stat-based applications which I’m obv fine with

I only wished to clarify lol. Obviously he is strongest because of The Visionary. The way you worded your statement made it sound akin to saying Flash isn’t really the fastest because he uses the speed force and not just his leg muscle.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Snip

I'm sorry but none of this is worth responding to. YOU misunderstood what scan I was addressing and when I pointed it out you called ME disingenuous for it?

I feel like you're just going in circles and debating for the sake of debating, otherwise you wouldn't be attacking me over your own misunderstanding…