Grant Morrison's cosmology ( DC cosmo split )

[Swanyee9t76]

Just giving an introduction. The DC cosmology split was confirmed in 2023 and is currently being used in the new tiering system published by @Ultima_Reality . In this post, I'd like to publish the cosmology of Grant Morrison, as no one has written this cosmology for the new tiering.

Before I start, I'd like to point out some of the concepts that Morrison used in his comic series. Morrison heavily focuses on cosmological structure, meta-viewpoints, and some philosophical theories, such as David Bohm's implicate theory, Platonism, M-theory, and some complex structures.

This is my first time posting a thread, and I'm not very knowledgeable about this tiering. So, if I make any mistakes, I politely request that you correct me.

Orrery Of The Worlds​

The orrery of the world is an essential existence within the multiverse, located in the middle of the multiverse. There are multiple layers inside the orrery, such as the local multiverse, Bleed space, etc.

Local multiverse​

Super-race called Monitors compiled all data in the 52 universes. ( Multiversity Guidebook )
Each universe contains endless stories. ( The Multiversity #2 )

Bleed space​

Rotates through fifth dimension. ( The multiversity )
"A single drop of liquid blood can annihilate the universe." ( Final crisis superman beyond #1 )
Contains multiple multiverses ( Final crisis secret files )

28 dimensional reality​

"Metron voyaging through 28 dimensions for absolute knowledge (JLA #13)"
Note Dimensions in here aren't parallel dimensions or something, since Metron's goal is to explore secret reality. So, how do these dimensions act?

• The power of higher dimensional imps in a three-dimensional world is beyond infinite. ( JLA # 29 )
• An eight-dimensional Möbius loop and Allen Adam are comparing how reality appears to higher-dimensional existences. They liken it to a comic book, where moving through time is like flipping through pages in any order. ( Multiversity Pax Americana )
• The existence of three-dimensional beings in the fifth dimension is powerless; their substances are less than shadows on the world, and they appear as flat. ( JLA #30 )
  So, these dimensional layers act as a transcendence by far. The Orrery of the world be 1b

Sphere of the gods​

"A realm of archetypal intelligences that encompass Orrery

Exist beyond the Orrery and the Speed force. ( Multiversity Map )
New gods are living ideas inside Platonic archetypal worlds, and the beings inside the sphere of the gods are archetypal power and intelligence." ( Batman #702 and Multiversity Map )
New Gensis and Apokolips are Manichaeism of purity ( Seven Soldiers Mister Miracle #1 )

Note : Existences inside the new genesis are described as peak forms of Platonism, Orion embodied as a symbol of the sun which is form of the good and Darkseid embodied as an inverted symbol of the sun which is form of the evil (Final Crisis Sketchbook). This duality of Platonism is similar to the idea of Manichaeism, which represents the concepts of Light and Dark.

The sphere of the gods would be 1b, as it encompasses and lies beyond the entire Orrery. The gods within are platonic living ideas that impart knowledge to the multiverse.

The recursive structures.​

During Doom Patrol Vol. 2, Morrison published some of the recursive, never-ending structures like:

• A painting known as The Persian Red Rail has never-ending recursive structures. (Doom Patrol #28)
• Larry's Russian dolls are isomorphic, mapping each other endlessly (Doom Patrol #27), and each Russian doll contains countless smaller dolls (Doom Patrol #54).
• is a infinite mystery of god's creation ( Doom Patrol #27 )

1a+ by series of infinite R>F transcendences and dolls that appeared in series containing smaller countless dolls and isomorphic mapping each other endlessly.

Interconnected universe​

"Everything in the interconnected Universe contains the whole, like mirror reflections." ( Animal Man #14 )
"Smaller wholes spiral down until our world is a single cell in the Body of God." (Animal Man #88)

High 1a, Everything in the interconnected universe contains the whole and reflects like a mirror. It is merely a single cell in the body of God, which repeats endlessly as a spiral recursive. Also, it transcends recursive painting since it is a part of God's creation, and the interconnected universe is a cell of God.

The Great Light/The White Light​

The Great Light represents the concept of a vast absence or non-existence that exists beyond what Animal Man perceives as reality. It embodies the idea of something beyond our comprehension, a realm or state of being that transcends our understanding. This concept suggests that there is more to existence than what we can perceive with our senses, and it challenges our conventional notions of reality.

The door the into impossible, Great Light represent as middle ground between Implicate order and Reality ( Animal Man #24 )
It is a manifestation of the vast absence that lies behind reality. From it unfolds the continuous process of creation and destruction.(Animal Man #12)
Outside of the comic book pages and reality exist on the Great Light as a drawing. ( Animal Man #24 )

High 1a, represented as the middle layer between the implicate order and reality, everything exists as a drawing on the Great Light.

Limbo/Implicate order​

Comic Book Limbo is a metaphysical realm that serves as a repository for characters who have been written out of the continuity of DC Comics. It is a place where these characters exist in a state of limbo, outside the established storylines and timelines of the DC universe. This allows for the possibility of reintroducing these characters into the continuity at a later time, should the need arise.

It’s the primal reality. All our dreams of ideal worlds are just attempts to describe the infinite possibility of this higher primal reality.(Animal Man #19)
is immense beyond understanding.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)
The history of the whole Morrison's universe exist within Limbo book ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1 )
Is the furthest edge of Multiverse. ( Multiversity map )
is considered off the charts to the rest of the multiverse and is located nowhere.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1 )
The beings in the Implicate Order look down on what goes on in the Great Light as a story to entertain.(Animal Man #24 )
Nothing is real. Not even the creators who reside in the Implicate Order.(Animal Man #24).

High 1a, R>F transcendence to Great Light and it's the source of every layer that I've published before.

Nil/Monitor Sphere and the Monitors​

Limbo form as a flat disk in the Nil ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )
Limbo is infinitesimal to monitors (Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)
The entire existence will cease to exist if nil is destroyed. ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1 )
"Every form exists ultimately."( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )
It's not the only thing that Grant Morrison mentioned. There are multiple things, such as

• An Ultimate story of superman ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )
• Multiple suns which are exactly look same with Orion's symbol of sun. ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1 ).
• City of Utopia which contains unsolvable galleries and museums that is Masterpiece of an art and Architectures. ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )

Is the blank and nil. ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )
Unimaginable forces. ( The Multiversity Guidebook )
Beyond Imagination. ( The Multiversity #1 )
Monitors were once infinite. ( Multiversity Map )

High 1a+, If the Nil perish, the entire existence would cease. To the Monitors, Limbo is a minuscule realm, and these Monitors are incomprehensible forces that transcend all imagination.

The Source​

Source is the one of highest existence in the cosmology that block thoughts and contains dualism.

Contains all dualities ( Final Crisis Secret Files )
Exist beyond the entire Multiverse ( Multiversity Map )

High 1a+, Exist beyond the rest of Cosmology

Mandrakk/Dax Novu and The Cosmic Armor​

Is A body of pure thought. ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )
The Thought Robot was formed from Pure Thought, which is similar to the concept of Thought and Reality in Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel’s system. In Hegel's system, Pure Thought represents the fundamental unity of consciousness and reality, transcending mere empirical experience, including dualities, minds, and everything else. This idea is already mentioned in the comics, where it is stated that the Thought Robot lacks duality (Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2)."

Is the opposite of the life ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )
The tombstone of Thought Robot represent the entire existence. ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )
Mandrakk is apart of Monitor that Contaminated by the flaw. ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )
Thought Robot's the remind of First contact of the Monitor. ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1 )
The Thought Robot is perceived by the Monitors as something that “has always been, and will always be.”(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1)

Mandrakk and the Thought Robot would be classified as High 1-A+ entities, as they transcend and encompass the entirety of the cosmology. Mandrakk, as the antithesis of Cosmic Armor Superman, represents an equally powerful but opposing force within this vast multiverse.

The Unknowable/Monitor Mind The Overvoid​

Monitor-Mind the Overvoid represents the highest level in Morrison’s DC cosmology. It is a transcendent, eternal void of perfection, serving as the canvas for all stories and embodying a state of pure oneness and limitless awareness

Monitor-Mind the Overvoid is described as akin to the Jewish concept of Ain Soph from the Tree of Life, representing the absolute oneness and divinity of all existence. In his work on Doom Patrol, They introduced a character known as The Unknowable, an ultimate being of oneness described as Ain Soph, the creator of all existence. ( Doom Patrol #85 )This idea resurfaces in Final Crisis, where Morrison introduces his ultimate character, the Overvoid, directly linking these two characters within the history of his cosmology.

The Unknowable, or the Holy One, existed before creation as the embodiment of Everything, with only his own perfection in existence. This character, referred to as God in Doom Patrol series, parallels Morrison's depiction of cosmic origins. When a flaw is discovered in this immaculate perfection, the relationship to the flaw itself defines Monitor-Mind the Overvoid, as detailed in The Multiversity Guidebook. The Unknowable created emptiness influenced by the name "God," while the Overvoid similarly created and shaped Dax Novu, an uncanny form of the Monitor.

In another example, the Unknowable created vessels to contain the light, giving it shape and form as the Tree of Life, Morrison alludes to this in Final Crisis, where the Monitor creates a concept to contain the flaw (Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #1), and Dax Novu creates divine metal/jar to seal and cover the flaw, forming the Orrery of Worlds.

These points illustrate that the Monitor and the Unknowable are essentially the same being, embodying the same foundational concept within Morrison’s cosmology.

The Overvoid, also known as The Unknowable, would be classified as Tier 0 due to its nature as pure oneness and awareness without definition, existing entirely beyond the bounds of the cosmology. This supreme entity embodies absolute perfection and transcends all dualities, dimensions, and limitations, functioning as the ultimate source and canvas for all existence within Morrison’s DC cosmology."


Recaping layers of the cosmology

Orrery of the world : 1b
Sphere of the god : 1b
Recursive structures : 1a+
Interconnected Universe : High 1a
Great Light : High 1a
Limbo/implicate order : High 1a
Monitors and Nil : High 1a+
The Source : High 1a+
Dax Novu/Mandrakk and the Cosmic Armor : High 1a+
Monitor Mind The Overvoid/The Unknowable : 0

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Bump

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Bump

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Might not get through all of this, but I have to comment on this section as it caught my eye:

28 dimensional reality​

"Metron voyaging through 28 dimensions for absolute knowledge (JLA #13)"
Note Dimensions in here aren't parallel dimensions or something, since Metron's goal is to explore secret reality. So, how do these dimensions act?

• The power of higher dimensional imps in a three-dimensional world is beyond infinite. ( JLA # 29 )
• An eight-dimensional Möbius loop and Allen Adam are comparing how reality appears to higher-dimensional existences. They liken it to a comic book, where moving through time is like flipping through pages in any order. ( Multiversity Pax Americana )
• The existence of three-dimensional beings in the fifth dimension is powerless; their substances are less than shadows on the world, and they appear as flat. ( JLA #30 )
  So, these dimensional layers act as a transcendence by far. The Orrery of the world would be 28 step-lines above baseline 1a.

1. I agree that those 28 dimensions are mathematical based on other context I've seen surrounding the statements, but I don't see how this particular argument would lead one to that conclusion. 28 unknown parallel worlds could be a "secret reality" too.

2. Are you arguing that mathematical dimensions within the Orrery transcend each other to 1-A degrees due to R>F analogies? Because that's not how it works under the new system. R>F gaps being likened to dimensional differences is an automatic disqualifier for 1-A R>F.

However, bear in mind that simple visual portrayals of a character viewing the world within some such construct are not enough to qualify. And so, for example, a cosmic entity being depicted as seeing the universe as a computer game "because this is the only way human minds can comprehend it" would not suffice, and likewise, neither would cases where a Reality/Fiction metaphor is simply used as an analogy for higher dimensions.

3. Are you arguing that the 5th dimension is mathematically 5-D?

Also, why are you implying that the 5th dimension is within the Orrery?

4. In context, Metron's "28 dimensions" are actually mathematical dimensions that serve as higher layers to the source wall, and in the late 90's, the 5th dimension was indeed treated as mathematical in nature and the Source Wall was stated to be mathematically 6-D on its lowest level.

Also:

During Doom Patrol Vol. 2, Morrison published some of the recursive, never-ending structures like:

• A painting known as The Persian Red Rail has never-ending recursive structures. (Doom Patrol #28)

Even with highest-end interpretations, this painting was a downwards hierarchy; an infinite lower-dimensional regression from the base universe.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Before I start, I'd like to point out some of the concepts that Morrison used in his comic series. Morrison heavily focuses on cosmological structure, meta-viewpoints, and some philosophical theories, such as David Bohm's implicate theory, Platonism, M-theory, and some complex structures.

Just to note, he doesn't use all these terms correctly so that's a major caveat for his Cosmology view.

​

Bleed space​

Rotates through fifth dimension. ( The multiversity )
"A single drop of liquid blood can annihilate the universe." ( Final crisis superman beyond #1 )
Contains multiple multiverses ( Final crisis secret files )

I do agree that there could be different multiverses in the Bleedspace. However, I don't think its going to scale it any higher simply due to those multiverses being parallel to one another. So even if they have say infinite earths, it wouldn't change the tiering unless those universes are treated as higher space.

28 dimensional reality​

"Metron voyaging through 28 dimensions for absolute knowledge (JLA #13)"
Note Dimensions in here aren't parallel dimensions or something, since Metron's goal is to explore secret reality. So, how do these dimensions act?

Obviously, they're not meant to be used to describe parallel dimensions however your second reasoning is meant to entail what exactly?

• The power of higher dimensional imps in a three-dimensional world is beyond infinite. ( JLA # 29 )
• An eight-dimensional Möbius loop and Allen Adam are comparing how reality appears to higher-dimensional existences. They liken it to a comic book, where moving through time is like flipping through pages in any order. ( Multiversity Pax Americana )
• The existence of three-dimensional beings in the fifth dimension is powerless; their substances are less than shadows on the world, and they appear as flat. ( JLA #30 )
  So, these dimensional layers act as a transcendence by far. The Orrery of the world would be 28 step-lines above baseline 1a.

That's 1-B, at best.

Sphere of the gods​

"A realm of archetypal intelligences that encompass Orrery

Exist beyond the Orrery and the Speed force. ( Multiversity Map )
New gods are living ideas inside Platonic archetypal worlds, and the beings inside the sphere of the gods are archetypal power and intelligence." ( Batman #702 and Multiversity Map )
New Gensis and Apokolips are Manichaeism of purity ( Seven Soldiers Mister Miracle #1 )

Note : Existences inside the new genesis are described as peak forms of Platonism, Orion embodied as a symbol of the sun which is form of the good and Darkseid embodied as an inverted symbol of the sun which is form of the evil (Final Crisis Sketchbook). This duality of Platonism is similar to the idea of Manichaeism, which represents the concepts of Light and Dark.

The sphere of the gods would be 1A, as it encompasses and lies beyond the entire Orrery. The gods within are platonic living ideas that impart knowledge to the multiverse.

There's no actual qualitative superiority between the Sphere realms and their resident to residents of the Earths in the Orrery.

I do understand Grant’s intention but how they we written in the story doesn't seem to indicate any R>F. Unless we're to dwell into the heavy semantics behind Morrison's writing.

The recursive structures.​

During Doom Patrol Vol. 2, Morrison published some of the recursive, never-ending structures like:

• A painting known as The Persian Red Rail has never-ending recursive structures. (Doom Patrol #28)
• Larry's Russian dolls are isomorphic, mapping each other endlessly (Doom Patrol #27), and each Russian doll contains countless smaller dolls (Doom Patrol #54).
• is a infinite mystery of god's creation ( Doom Patrol #27 )

1a+ by series of infinite R>F transcendences and dolls that appeared in series containing smaller countless dolls and isomorphic mapping each other endlessly.

That's working down a hierarchy. A repeating parallel isn't indicative of a R>F transcendence hierarchy.

Interconnected universe​

"Everything in the interconnected Universe contains the whole, like mirror reflections." ( Animal Man #14 )
"Smaller wholes spiral down until our world is a single cell in the Body of God." (Animal Man #88)

High 1a, Everything in the interconnected universe contains the whole and reflects like a mirror. It is merely a single cell in the body of God, which repeats endlessly as a spiral recursive. Also, it transcends recursive painting since it is a part of God's creation, and the interconnected universe is a cell of God.

Again that's parallel. Not to mention Morrison didn't write Animal Man #88.

The World Soul​

"The big idea of the Universe contains universes within an infinite amount of larger universes." (Animal Man #86)
Note: The term "Universe" here indirectly refers to an interconnected Universe, as all parts of universes contain the whole as a cell of god. A universe inside universes would be a recursive hierarchy of the higher universes.

Is the whole existence of the body and mind of the god ( Animal Man #88 )
Higher level of consciousness ( Animal Man #86 )

High 1a, containing universes/worlds within an infinite number of larger universes and being the wholeness structure of God.

None of that was written by Morrison. Though those are better examples of R>F.

The Great Light/The White Light​

The Great Light represents the concept of a vast absence or non-existence that exists beyond what Animal Man perceives as reality. It embodies the idea of something beyond our comprehension, a realm or state of being that transcends our understanding. This concept suggests that there is more to existence than what we can perceive with our senses, and it challenges our conventional notions of reality.

The door the into impossible, Great Light represent as middle ground between Implicate order and Reality ( Animal Man #24 )
It is a manifestation of the vast absence that lies behind reality. From it unfolds the continuous process of creation and destruction.(Animal Man #12)
Outside of the comic book pages and reality exist on the Great Light as a drawing. ( Animal Man #24 )

High 1a, represented as the middle layer between the implicate order and reality, everything exists as a drawing on the Great Light.

If it does have R>F which is pretty bleak to say then that's just 1-A.

Limbo/Implicate order​

Comic Book Limbo is a metaphysical realm that serves as a repository for characters who have been written out of the continuity of DC Comics. It is a place where these characters exist in a state of limbo, outside the established storylines and timelines of the DC universe. This allows for the possibility of reintroducing these characters into the continuity at a later time, should the need arise.

It’s the primal reality. All our dreams of ideal worlds are just attempts to describe the infinite possibility of this higher primal reality.(Animal Man #19)
is immense beyond understanding.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)
The history of the whole Morrison's universe exist within Limbo book ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1 )
Is the furthest edge of Multiverse. ( Multiversity map )
is considered off the charts to the rest of the multiverse and is located nowhere.(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1 )
The beings in the Implicate Order look down on what goes on in the Great Light as a story to entertain.(Animal Man #24 )
Nothing is real. Not even the creators who reside in the Implicate Order.(Animal Man #24).

High 1a, R>F transcendence to Great Light and it's the source of every layer that I've published before.

That's one layer into 1-A. Though the final information about “nothing is real” could maybe get it to High 1-A, but I don't think it lands anywhere near that.

Nil/Monitor Sphere and the Monitors​

Limbo form as a flat disk in the Nil ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )
Limbo is infinitesimal to monitors (Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)
The entire existence will cease to exist if nil is destroyed. ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1 )
"Every form exists ultimately."( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )
It's not the only thing that Grant Morrison mentioned. There are multiple things, such as

• An Ultimate story of superman ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )
• Multiple suns which are exactly look same with Orion's symbol of sun. ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1 ).
• City of Utopia which contains unsolvable galleries and museums that is Masterpiece of an art and Architectures. ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )

Is the blank and nil. ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )
Unimaginable forces. ( The Multiversity Guidebook )
Beyond Imagination. ( The Multiversity #1 )
Monitors were once infinite. ( Multiversity Map )

High 1a+, If the Nil perish, the entire existence would cease. To the Monitors, Limbo is a minuscule realm, and these Monitors are incomprehensible forces that transcend all imagination.

Minuscule is a scale here and infeinitemsal isn't whats being described from Limbo to Nil. High 1-A+ would mean that they possess some sort of contingency that oversees other contingious possibilities or perhaps a modal possible world which doesn't seem to be the case.

The Source​

Source is the one of highest existence in the cosmology that block thoughts and contains dualism.

Contains all dualities ( Final Crisis Secret Files )
Exist beyond the entire Multiverse ( Multiversity Map )

High 1a+, Exist beyond the rest of Cosmology

That seems like 0 if it's connected with the Overvoid which Grant has mentioned quite a lot.

Mandrakk/Dax Novu and The Cosmic Armor​

Is A body of pure thought. ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )
The Thought Robot was formed from Pure Thought, which is similar to the concept of Thought and Reality in Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel’s system. In Hegel's system, Pure Thought represents the fundamental unity of consciousness and reality, transcending mere empirical experience, including dualities, minds, and everything else. This idea is already mentioned in the comics, where it is stated that the Thought Robot lacks duality (Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #2)."

They're both described in a dualistic manner and from an interview at that. So how they can transcend it? The idea is that Symmetry is similar to duality in different forms of M-Theory, but Thought Robot isn't completely lacking duality as a concept itself.

Is the opposite of the life ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )
The tombstone of Thought Robot represent the entire existence. ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )

Where does it say the Robot is the entire existence?

Mandrakk is apart of Monitor that Contaminated by the flaw. ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2 )
Thought Robot's the remind of First contact of the Monitor. ( Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1 )
The Thought Robot is perceived by the Monitors as something that “has always been, and will always be.”(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1)

Mandrakk and the Thought Robot would be classified as High 1-A+ entities, as they transcend and encompass the entirety of the cosmology. Mandrakk, as the antithesis of Cosmic Armor Superman, represents an equally powerful but opposing force within this vast multiverse.

Metaphors explained by Morrison to describe the two is to compare them to what they define as opposing dichotomy and not the actual things. Like how you would you describe Young and Old to contrast Mandrakk and the Robot that has no relevance at all, but it's used because they're “opposite in nature.”

The Unknowable/Monitor Mind The Overvoid​

Monitor-Mind the Overvoid represents the highest level in Morrison’s DC cosmology. It is a transcendent, eternal void of perfection, serving as the canvas for all stories and embodying a state of pure oneness and limitless awareness

Monitor-Mind the Overvoid is described as akin to the Jewish concept of Ain Soph from the Tree of Life, representing the absolute oneness and divinity of all existence. In his work on Doom Patrol, They introduced a character known as The Unknowable, an ultimate being of oneness described as Ain Soph, the creator of all existence. ( Doom Patrol #85 )This idea resurfaces in Final Crisis, where Morrison introduces his ultimate character, the Overvoid, directly linking these two characters within the history of his cosmology.

The Unknowable, or the Holy One, existed before creation as the embodiment of Everything, with only his own perfection in existence. This character, referred to as God in Doom Patrol series, parallels Morrison's depiction of cosmic origins. When a flaw is discovered in this immaculate perfection, the relationship to the flaw itself defines Monitor-Mind the Overvoid, as detailed in The Multiversity Guidebook. The Unknowable created emptiness influenced by the name "God," while the Overvoid similarly created and shaped Dax Novu, an uncanny form of the Monitor.

In another example, the Unknowable created vessels to contain the light, giving it shape and form as the Tree of Life, Morrison alludes to this in Final Crisis, where the Monitor creates a concept to contain the flaw (Final Crisis: Superman Beyond #1), and Dax Novu creates divine metal/jar to seal and cover the flaw, forming the Orrery of Worlds.

These points illustrate that the Monitor and the Unknowable are essentially the same being, embodying the same foundational concept within Morrison’s cosmology.

The Overvoid, also known as The Unknowable, would be classified as Tier 0 due to its nature as pure oneness and awareness without definition, existing entirely beyond the bounds of the cosmology. This supreme entity embodies absolute perfection and transcends all dualities, dimensions, and limitations, functioning as the ultimate source and canvas for all existence within Morrison’s DC cosmology."

Yeah, if we take Grant’s Morrison statement as part of the Cosmology then 0 seems fine, but the Unknowable part wasn’t written by Morrison, and the brief appearances of the Overvoid don't seem indicative of anything too high and only make sense when we take WoG.

Recaping layers of the cosmology

Orrery of the world : 1a
Sphere of the god : 1a
Recursive structures : 1a+
Interconnected Universe : High 1a
The World Soul : High 1a
Great Light : High 1a
Limbo/implicate order : High 1a
Monitors and Nil : High 1a+
The Source : High 1a+
Dax Novu/Mandrakk and the Cosmic Armor : High 1a+
Monitor Mind The Overvoid/The Unknowable : 0

I can't think of an actual scale, but the last part seems true only with WoG and maybe some weird interpretation of Grant's older story on the conception of God.

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @Firestorm808 @Deagonx @Elizio33

What do you think about this?

 

[Yuhady123]

Cant wait to see Deagonx reaction

 

[Deagonx]

@Eficiente @Firestorm808 @Deagonx @Elizio33

What do you think about this?

It incorporates structures we specifically exclude from the composite cosmology due to being entirely unmentioned outside of their specific runs. The main body of Grant's work is incorporated alongside Snyder and Williamson.

 

[Elizio33]

I agree that the twenty-eight dimensions are not parallel, but what evidence do we have that these dimensions are higher dimensions with qualitative superiority ??

The Bleed containing multiverses was only a questionable statement from one comic, the more prominent Multiversity Map stated that the fifty-two brane universes are enclosed within the Bleed and Final Crisis mentioned the same.

The Thought Robot is the “good” side of all dichotomy, making it clear that he does not lack duality, and the Overvoid had to define itself from the Flaw which represented every the Overvoid is not. Furthermore, all these claims that the Thought Robot is made up of "pure thoughts" are questionable since when the Thought Robot was activated, this is what the narration says: "Rusted eyelids... Split apart. The drifting smoke of galaxies, the veil of matter part and clear." Remember that there have been occasions where the Monitors have been wrong in their claims, such as claiming that they were the only ones able to take and consume the Bleed, while Superman was able to descend into the Material World with a piece of the Bleed and give it to the dying Lois Lane, proving the Monitors wrong.

 

[Elizio33]

It incorporates structures we specifically exclude from the composite cosmology due to being entirely unmentioned outside of their specific runs. The main body of Grant's work is incorporated alongside Snyder and Williamson.

The Great Light, although not directly mentioned, was shown in Infinite Frontier: Secret Files as this filmsy white fabric outside of everything where the never-ending cycle of creation and destruction occurs and from where Psycho-Pirate watch reality. However, this space has been shown to not actually exist outside of everything since Darkseid reached Psycho-Pirate and brought him to Earth-Omega, which Barry Allen described as the farthest Earth.

 

[Elizio33]

Anyway, the only relevant materials for an upgrade in my opinion is the 11-D stuffs for a potential High 1-C Orrery of Worlds, and a hypothetical Low 1-A Divine Continuum based on the realms of "pure math" featured in the new Flash series.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Might not get through all of this, but I have to comment on this section as it caught my eye:

1. I agree that those 28 dimensions are mathematical based on other context I've seen surrounding the statements, but I don't see how this particular argument would lead one to that conclusion. 28 unknown parallel worlds could be a "secret reality" too.

2. Are you arguing that mathematical dimensions within the Orrery transcend each other to 1-A degrees due to R>F analogies? Because that's not how it works under the new system. R>F gaps being likened to dimensional differences is an automatic disqualifier for 1-A R>F.

3. Are you arguing that the 5th dimension is mathematically 5-D?

Also, why are you implying that the 5th dimension is within the Orrery?

4. In context, Metron's "28 dimensions" are actually mathematical dimensions that serve as higher layers to the source wall, and in the late 90's, the 5th dimension was indeed treated as mathematical in nature and the Source Wall was stated to be mathematically 6-D on its lowest level.

Also:

Even with highest-end interpretations, this painting was a downwards hierarchy; an infinite lower-dimensional regression from the base universe.

First of all, in meta-view points of Morrison, DC dimensions are work with kind of R>F transcendence existence, However, I personally thought Dimensional R>F are works with 1a tier. I'll edit this to 1b also, I apology for my misunderstood on new system.

There is no specific mention of 6D being the Source Wall in Morrison's Cosmology. Furthermore, 5D imps are only described as 5D entities, and there are 8D Mobius strips inside the universe. This means they don't scale entirely in Morrison's cosmology.

I think these R>F on paintings aren't work with Dimensional Existence. As a cop shoot mister nobody, the bullet cannot reach through him instead It leads out of the panel. As the reality that Mister Nobody standing isn't even the same place with outside one. Furthermore, Directly Mentioned photorealistic painting. The city inside the painting is multi-color structure ( in perspective of Rebis, who came from outside of painting ) . the Creator of that painting created by coloring.

I think this could qualify as 1a+

 

[Weaver261]

Anyway, the only relevant materials for an upgrade in my opinion is the 11-D stuffs for a potential High 1-C Orrery of Worlds, and a hypothetical Low 1-A Divine Continuum based on the realms of "pure math" featured in the new Flash series.

I've to disagree with this. As I said in the thread about new flash run, Arc Angles are capable of creating a conceptual realm without no properties of reality.
That alone could grant them 1-A tier not to mention that they gave Folded man the ability to have control over all eucliden spaces.
Folded man actually made others flat which corresponds with the statement @Swanyee9t76 made about dimensions.
Dimensions like Fourth Dimension, Fifth Dimension and Sixth Dimension are clearly shown as planes of existence in later runs.
Inspector stated that Arc Angels are nth dimensional beings which correlate with them mapping the multiverse into nth dimensional structure. Arc Angle are also stated as Hypergeometries conscious so it's pretty clear enough to grant them 1-A tier.

It's also shown that there're abstractions in lower dimensions. I think DC Cosmology is not quite fit in current scaling system but that's just my guess. I'm also not very knowledgable about new system so I might be wrong.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I've to disagree with this. As I said in the thread about new flash run, Arc Angles are capable of creating a conceptual realm without no properties of reality.
That alone could grant them 1-A tier not to mention that they gave Folded man the ability to have control over all eucliden spaces.
Folded man actually made others flat which corresponds with the statement @Swanyee9t76 made about dimensions.
Dimensions like Fourth Dimension, Fifth Dimension and Sixth Dimension are clearly shown as planes of existence in later runs.
Inspector stated that Arc Angels are nth dimensional beings which correlate with them mapping the multiverse into nth dimensional structure. Arc Angle are also stated as Hypergeometries conscious so it's pretty clear enough to grant them 1-A tier.

It's also shown that there're abstractions in lower dimensions. I think DC Cosmology is not quite fit in current scaling system but that's just my guess. I'm also not very knowledgable about new system so I might be wrong.

Arc Angles are still in discussion and since they're not native to the “Multiverse” we can worry about them later. Though they wouldn't fit anywhere with a standalone Cosmology of Morrison.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

First of all, in meta-view points of Morrison, DC dimensions are work with kind of R>F transcendence existence, However, I personally thought Dimensional R>F are works with 1a tier. I'll edit this to 1b also, I apology for my misunderstood on new system.

Dimensions are quantitive, not qualitative. R>F is really all that's required for 1-A.

There is no specific mention of 6D being the Source Wall in Morrison's Cosmology. Furthermore, 5D imps are only described as 5D entities, and there are 8D Mobius strips inside the universe. This means they don't scale entirely in Morrison's cosmology.

From Morrison recent works being incorporated into larger expanding DCU Cosmology, it works. His older works not so much.

I think these R>F on paintings aren't work with Dimensional Existence. As a cop shoot mister nobody, the bullet cannot reach through him instead It leads out of the panel. As the reality that Mister Nobody standing isn't even the same place with outside one. Furthermore, Directly Mentioned photorealistic painting. The city inside the painting is multi-color structure ( in perspective of Rebis, who came from outside of painting ) . the Creator of that painting created by coloring.

I think this could qualify as 1a+

The paintings are not indicative of R>F.

 

[Weaver261]

Arc Angles are still in discussion and since they're not native to the “Multiverse” we can worry about them later. Though they wouldn't fit anywhere with a standalone Cosmology of Morrison.

That's right. I am just disagreeing with Low 1-A Divine Continuum thing. I tend to see the DC Cosmology as a composite rather than splits so that's why I said everything could be pointing the same thing

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

That's right. I am just disagreeing with Low 1-A Divine Continuum thing. I tend to see the DC Cosmology as a composite rather than splits so that's why I said everything could be pointing the same thing

Composite DC no longer exists on this site, so we can't really scale like that.

 

[Elizio33]

Composite DC no longer exists on this site, so we can't really scale like that.

Crisis Cosmology is somewhat a composite cosmology based on the works of Grant Morrison's (2008 to now), Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, Joshua Williamson and Geoff Johns.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Just to note, he doesn't use all these terms correctly so that's a major caveat for his Cosmology view.

I do agree that there could be different multiverses in the Bleedspace. However, I don't think its going to scale it any higher simply due to those multiverses being parallel to one another. So even if they have say infinite earths, it wouldn't change the tiering unless those universes are treated as higher space.

Obviously, they're not meant to be used to describe parallel dimensions however your second reasoning is meant to entail what exactly?

That's 1-B, at best.

There's no actual qualitative superiority between the Sphere realms and their resident to residents of the Earths in the Orrery.

I do understand Grant’s intention but how they we written in the story doesn't seem to indicate any R>F. Unless we're to dwell into the heavy semantics behind Morrison's writing.

That's working down a hierarchy. A repeating parallel isn't indicative of a R>F transcendence hierarchy.

Again that's parallel. Not to mention Morrison didn't write Animal Man #88.

None of that was written by Morrison. Though those are better examples of R>F.

If it does have R>F which is pretty bleak to say then that's just 1-A.

That's one layer into 1-A. Though the final information about “nothing is real” could maybe get it to High 1-A, but I don't think it lands anywhere near that.

Minuscule is a scale here and infeinitemsal isn't whats being described from Limbo to Nil. High 1-A+ would mean that they possess some sort of contingency that oversees a possible contingency or perhaps a modal possible world which doesn't seem to be the case.

That seems like 0 if it's connected with the Overvoid which Grant has mentioned quite a lot.

They're both described in a dualistic manner and from an interview at that. So how they can transcend it? The idea is that Symmetry is similar to duality in different forms of M-Theory, but Thought Robot isn't completely lacking duality as a concept itself.

Where does it say the Robot is the entire existence?

Metaphors explained by Morrison to describe the two is to compare them to what they define as opposing dichotomy and not the actual things. Like how you would you describe Young and Old to contrast Mandrakk and the Robot that has no relevance at all, but it's used because they're “opposite in nature.”

Yeah, if we take Grant’s Morrison statement as part of the Cosmology then 0 seems fine, but the Unknowable part wasn’t written by Morrison, and the brief appearances of the Overvoid don't seem indicative of anything too high and only make sense when we take WoG.

I can't think of an actual scale, but the last part seems true only with WoG and maybe some weird interpretation of Grant's older story on the conception of God.

1. Yes he didn't use them correctly since It's impossible to combined all of these into one.

2. Yes I personally think the same. So, Yes

3. I apology for my misunderstood I agree it's 1b.

4. Sphere of the god would be 1b along with orrery, after I editing the tiers.

5. Alright first of all, that painting is formed by colors as the creator of painting draw it with colors. and the city inside there is made up with multi-colors in perspective of Rebis. It's not kind of dimensional loop or smt similar, It could be a loop of painting which each smaller ones is like multi-colored photorealist reality for higher existence's perspective. They should be 1a+. Furthermore, the bullet that cop shoot to Mister Nobody didn't reach to him, instead it reach outside of the comic panel.

6. I apology for the world soul parts, I didn't check who wrote these when I was reading these. I'll remove it.

7. If u rlly count the painting as 1a+ all of the layers that have Qualitative Superiority to recursive structures are baseline High1a.

8. We don't know what's exact, I wrote like that cuz It's look cool. But I personally think It's infinitesimal as, Quantum Superman mentioned nil as higher existence. Also, you must know that Limbo is merely flat disk on nil when Cas viewed Limbo.

9. As I mentioned before, the Interconnection Universe might contain recursive structures. Even the small parts reflect the whole. The whole universe should be High 1a and a white light which sees the whole structure as R>F. The Implicate order, which transcends the other two layers, would be High 1a so far.

10. Source doesn't rlly scale to the rest of Cosmology. As he only contains dualities.

11. Well, I think that's how Morrison sees both in his perspective. Cas was defending the flaw and Mandrakk was trying to destroy the flaw. However, Captain Marvel also mentioned that " Ultimate good is Ultimate evil " I think they both might contains but philosophy that Morrison based on and Quantum Superman said otherwise.

12. First of all, we all know that Rox Ogama mentioned that " The whole of existence within a single book " Which directly mentioned ' Final Crisis Superman beyond ' During the fight between Superman and Mandrakk, tombstone was lack of words, Mandrakk also mentioned " Crawl into tombstone that's awaits you and be done ' That might indirectly refers Cas and All existences. It also said" The flaw is sealed and scabbed with divine metals " which could refers to Thought Robot again.

13. I personally don't that " Opposite of the life " is refers to Mandrakk beings opposite of Thought Robot, As Overvoid is based off a character from Doom Patrol calls Unknowable ( Which also exist at the peak of multiversity map ) The Unknowable is based off an idea called Ain Souph which supreme divinity. When The holy one created a Tree of life, it failed to handle and got annihilated by itself. I think if I guess it correctly, Flaw would be tree of life and Mandrakk might be the one who doesn't want that part.

14. Well, I never said Unknowable is apart of Morrison's run, I just want to publish his origin since Unknowable exist in multiversity map and however, I put it cuz some people claim that Overvoid isn't supreme pure oneness or smt.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Dimensions are quantitive, not qualitative. R>F is really all that's required for 1-A.

From Morrison recent works being incorporated into larger expanding DCU Cosmology, it works. His older works not so much.

The paintings are not indicative of R>F.

I apology about dimensional part


Well, however imps never appeared in post JLA comics, I personally think this would be work.

It should be as it's structured with kind of colors on canvas.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

Composite DC no longer exists on this site, so we can't really scale like that.

However, in perspective of readers It's still exist. Most of new crisis that published nowadays are directly linking but I agree this one.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

To elaborate on some things I mentioned before:

In context, Metron's "28 dimensions" are actually mathematical dimensions that serve as higher layers to the source wall, and in the late 90's, the 5th dimension was indeed treated as mathematical in nature and the Source Wall was stated to be mathematically 6-D on its lowest level.

There is no specific mention of 6D being the Source Wall in Morrison's Cosmology. Furthermore, 5D imps are only described as 5D entities, and there are 8D Mobius strips inside the universe. This means they don't scale entirely in Morrison's cosmology.

I was referring to the 28 dimensions statement.

• Metron seizes a man and takes him for a ride on the Mobius Chair.
• They arrive at the Source Wall.
• Metron acknowledges that as a 3-dimensional being, the man would have to give it his all just to withstand Metron's interaction with a 6-dimensional space as he directly interacts with the Source Wall.
• Darkseid states that the immediate surface of the Source Wall that mortals can perceive is a small fragment of the Source Wall's 6-dimensional space.
• Metron then references the "twenty-eight known dimensions" to the same human, consoling him due to his trauma from journey through six of those dimensions.

So in full context, the base layer of the Source Wall was mathematically 6-Dimensional, and the 28 dimensions Metron has experienced are likely higher layers of the Source Wall he can travel through as a non-mortal.

Even with highest-end interpretations, this painting was a downwards hierarchy; an infinite lower-dimensional regression from the base universe.

Yeah... even if you interpret the infinite labyrinth worlds within the painting as R>F layers, the real world is explicitly transcendent over the entire painting, which is an infinite lower-dimensional regression from the base universe.

• "How far down does this thing go?"
• "How far down are we? How deep into the structure?"
• "It's infinite. It goes down forever and..."
• "It's rising through the levels towards the real world."
• "When the rider grows strong enough to break out of the painting and into the real world, it will extinguish everything."
• "They're through into the Dada world! Our world!"
• "We're all that stands between this thing and the world!"
• "Are we out?" "Like pigs from a gun." "And Paris too?" "Vomited back into reality."

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

5. Alright first of all, that painting is formed by colors as the creator of painting draw it with colors. and the city inside there is made up with multi-colors in perspective of Rebis. It's not kind of dimensional loop or smt similar, It could be a loop of painting which each smaller ones is like multi-colored photorealist reality for higher existence's perspective. They should be 1a+. Furthermore, the bullet that cop shoot to Mister Nobody didn't reach to him, instead it reach outside of the comic panel.

If it starts from a set point and has a “lower reality” then that's a downward hierarchy. The comic book panel thing isn't really anything special given we don't even treat Earth-33 or most of Morrison's meta-textual things as actual R>F previously much less now.

7. If u rlly count the painting as 1a+ all of the layers that have Qualitative Superiority to recursive structures are baseline High1a.

I don't that's the problem and I don't think anyone here does either. There was a previous thread discussing that issue and that thread is closed.

8. We don't know what's exact, I wrote like that cuz It's look cool. But I personally think It's infinitesimal as, Quantum Superman mentioned nil as higher existence. Also, you must know that Limbo is merely flat disk on nil when Cas viewed Limbo.

That's a scale and still somewhat quantifiable.

9. As I mentioned before, the Interconnection Universe might contain recursive structures. Even the small parts reflect the whole. The whole universe should be High 1a and a white light which sees the whole structure as R>F. The Implicate order, which transcends the other two layers, would be High 1a so far.

A small part reflecting the whole isn't what you think it means. That's not at all R>F.

10. Source doesn't rlly scale to the rest of Cosmology. As he only contains dualities.

This would mean it contains the entire Cosmology because everything is dualistic and symmetrical in nature.

11. Well, I think that's how Morrison sees both in his perspective. Cas was defending the flaw and Mandrakk was trying to destroy the flaw. However, Captain Marvel also mentioned that " Ultimate good is Ultimate evil " I think they both might contains but philosophy that Morrison based on and Quantum Superman said otherwise.

They represent opposites and the examples are metaphors of how they oppose each other. They don't embody all those examples.

12. First of all, we all know that Rox Ogama mentioned that " The whole of existence within a single book " Which directly mentioned ' Final Crisis Superman beyond ' During the fight between Superman and Mandrakk, tombstone was lack of words, Mandrakk also mentioned " Crawl into tombstone that's awaits you and be done ' That might indirectly refers Cas and All existences. It also said" The flaw is sealed and scabbed with divine metals " which could refers to Thought Robot again.

The divine metal is referring to the Orrery because we see Existence be fine without the Robot.

13. I personally don't that " Opposite of the life " is refers to Mandrakk beings opposite of Thought Robot, As Overvoid is based off a character from Doom Patrol calls Unknowable ( Which also exist at the peak of multiversity map ) The Unknowable is based off an idea called Ain Souph which supreme divinity. When The holy one created a Tree of life, it failed to handle and got annihilated by itself. I think if I guess it correctly, Flaw would be tree of life and Mandrakk might be the one who doesn't want that part.

The Unknowable is more so a Godhead and probably Ein Sof. The three negative aspects of God: Ain, Ain Soph, and Ain Soph Aur really have no relevance just because Grant wrote that in his own personal book.

14. Well, I never said Unknowable is apart of Morrison's run, I just want to publish his origin since Unknowable exist in multiversity map and however, I put it cuz some people claim that Overvoid isn't supreme pure oneness or smt.

We don't really need the implication though. It's straightforward, if you ask me.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Crisis Cosmology is somewhat a composite cosmology based on the works of Grant Morrison's (2008 to now), Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, Joshua Williamson and Geoff Johns.

I think they mean every canon from every author. Where there's no “split” at all.

 

[Xearsay]

However, in perspective of readers It's still exist. Most of new crisis that published nowadays are directly linking but I agree this one.

Well yeah that’s because DC doesn’t acknowledge or work under a system of “writer cosmologies.” For example, if you were to go up to DC editorial and tell them Animal Man and JLA aren’t taking place in the same canon as Final Crisis, they’d look at you with complete confusion. However, on here that wouldn’t happen because writer cosmologies is something we entirely made up for uh… reasons.

 

[Swanyee9t76]

To elaborate on some things I mentioned before:


I was referring to the 28 dimensions statement.

• Metron seizes a man and takes him for a ride on the Mobius Chair.
• They arrive at the Source Wall.
• Metron acknowledges that as a 3-dimensional being, the man would have to give it his all just to withstand Metron's interaction with a 6-dimensional space as he directly interacts with the Source Wall.
• Darkseid states that the immediate surface of the Source Wall that mortals can perceive is a small fragment of the Source Wall's 6-dimensional space.
• Metron then references the "twenty-eight known dimensions" to the same human, consoling him due to his trauma from journey through six of those dimensions.

So in full context, the base layer of the Source Wall was mathematically 6-Dimensional, and the 28 dimensions Metron has experienced are likely higher layers of the Source Wall he can travel through as a non-mortal.

Yeah... even if you interpret the infinite labyrinth worlds within the painting as R>F layers, the real world is explicitly transcendent over the entire painting, which is an infinite lower-dimensional regression from the base universe.

• "How far down does this thing go?"
• "How far down are we? How deep into the structure?"
• "It's infinite. It goes down forever and..."
• "It's rising through the levels towards the real world."
• "When the rider grows strong enough to break out of the painting and into the real world, it will extinguish everything."
• "They're through into the Dada world! Our world!"
• "We're all that stands between this thing and the world!"
• "Are we out?" "Like pigs from a gun." "And Paris too?" "Vomited back into reality.

Idk why ur bringing up o

To elaborate on some things I mentioned before:


I was referring to the 28 dimensions statement.

• Metron seizes a man and takes him for a ride on the Mobius Chair.
• They arrive at the Source Wall.
• Metron acknowledges that as a 3-dimensional being, the man would have to give it his all just to withstand Metron's interaction with a 6-dimensional space as he directly interacts with the Source Wall.
• Darkseid states that the immediate surface of the Source Wall that mortals can perceive is a small fragment of the Source Wall's 6-dimensional space.
• Metron then references the "twenty-eight known dimensions" to the same human, consoling him due to his trauma from journey through six of those dimensions.

So in full context, the base layer of the Source Wall was mathematically 6-Dimensional, and the 28 dimensions Metron has experienced are likely higher layers of the Source Wall he can travel through as a non-mortal.

Yeah... even if you interpret the infinite labyrinth worlds within the painting as R>F layers, the real world is explicitly transcendent over the entire painting, which is an infinite lower-dimensional regression from the base universe.

• "How far down does this thing go?"
• "How far down are we? How deep into the structure?"
• "It's infinite. It goes down forever and..."
• "It's rising through the levels towards the real world."
• "When the rider grows strong enough to break out of the painting and into the real world, it will extinguish everything."
• "They're through into the Dada world! Our world!"
• "We're all that stands between this thing and the world!"
• "Are we out?" "Like pigs from a gun." "And Paris too?" "Vomited back into reality."

I don't know why you are bringing the scans which aren't written by Morrison, if u rlly count all possible scans of source wall, There is a comic called Death of the new gods. In that comic, you will see there are Two Source walls. New gods are thinking the source wall that stated at the end of sphere of the god is 6th dimension's source wall, where Perpetua got sealed. However, it's stated in 5th dimension. I can't provide scans cuz of my wifi. if u rlly want to know, U can read Death Of The New Gods.

Well, I got it what you are trying to say. An downward hierarchy would be depends on where you count. Like If you lived inside the smallest layer of the painting, the higher layers would be higher existences of R>Fs. We don't rlly know that the existence of smallest painting is lowest dimensional space or smt. We've already seen in #28 that each paintings have space-time continumm ( page 13 ). The only different is the perspective of higher reality sees lower reality as multi-colored photorealistic reality. Which should be 1a+