8-D Grant Morrison's DC Cosmology

[Elizio33]

Following recent DC Cosmology discussions, it was decided to combine the work of Scott Snyder and James Tynion IV with that of Grant Morrison from 2008 and 2015 (Final Crisis and Multiversity) and the multiverse was accepted as a four-dimensional spatiotemporal structure but in The Multiversity: Pax Americana Allen Adam mentions an eight-dimensional mobius loop.

He mentioned the eight-dimensional Mobius Loop when he was talking about higher-dimensional perspective, how the two-dimensional continuum looks to us, and then Allen said "Imagine how your 3D world appears to me." This implies that this eight-dimensional mobius loop has a higher-dimensional nature and the DC cosmology of Morrison/Snyder/Tynion should be 8-D. I agree that the Orrery shouldn't be 8-D since structures like the Bleed were said to be 4-D but the multiverse is much more than just the Orrery so the totality of the multiverse should be 8-D. Overall, this cosmology should be 1-C instead of Low 1-C.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Overall, this cosmology should be High 1-C

8-D is 1-C. High 1-C starts at 10-D

 

[Elizio33]

8-D is 1-C. High 1-C starts at 10-D

True, I'll fix it.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I agree should keep it at 1-C. However, this should apply to the entirety of the Multiverse. Not any specific parts within it.

 

[Elizio33]

I agree should keep it at 1-C. However, this should apply to the entirety of the Multiverse. Not any specific parts within it.

Agree, that was my point above. The entirety of the multiversal structure should be 8-D but the Orrery should stay 4-D.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Who scales?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Agree, that was my point above. The entirety of the multiversal structure should be 8-D but the Orrery should stay 4-D.

I hope no one tries to argue for a Perpetua's upgrade because of this. Given she only made the Multiversal stature which grew into the Multiverse.

On that note yes we should keep the Orrery the way it is.

 

[Elizio33]

Realms like the Monitor Sphere, Fifth Dimension, and Sixth Dimension should be above this 8-D structure since they are the highest planes of existence in the multiverse, but they should not be infinitely transcendent to the 8-D structure.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Realms like the Monitor Sphere, Fifth Dimension, and Sixth Dimension should be above this 8-D structure since they are the highest planes of existence in the multiverse, but they should not be infinitely transcendent to the 8-D structure.

So they remain the same? They transcend the Orrery but all still are part of the Multiversal structure.

We should separate the Local Multiverse from The Multiverse. One to describe the 52 Earths in the Multiverse and the other refers to the entire structure.

 

[Elizio33]

Who scales?

Good question.

Mandrakk & Thought Robot - 2-C, possibly 1-C: should scale above the multiversal 8-D structure since Comic Book Limbo, the edge of the "manifest" DCU, appears as an infinitesimal disk to them.

Monitor Brothers - 2-C, possibly 1-C: should scale above the 8-D multiversal structure since they are above the Monitors and the Monitor Sphere.

Perpetua - 2-C, possibly 1-C: should scale above the 8-D structure since she's vastly more powerful than the Monitor Brothers and created the multiversal superstructure, an "empty" space made out of the three matter-based realms.

Mr. Mxyzptlk - 2-C, possibly 1-C: should scale to the 8-D structure since the Fifth Dimension encompasses everything within the multiverse except the Sixth Dimension and the Source Wall.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Good question.

Mandrakk & Thought Robot - 2-C, possibly 1-C: should scale above the multiversal 8-D structure since Comic Book Limbo, the edge of the "manifest" DCU, appears as an infinitesimal disk to them.

Monitor Brothers - 2-C, possibly 1-C: should scale above the 8-D multiversal structure since they are above the Monitors and the Monitor Sphere.

Perpetua - 2-C, possibly 1-C: should scale above the 8-D structure since she's vastly more powerful than the Monitor Brothers and created the multiversal superstructure, an "empty" space made out of the three matter-based realms.

Mr. Mxyzptlk - 2-C, possibly 1-C: should scale to the 8-D structure since the Fifth Dimension encompasses everything within the multiverse except the Sixth Dimension and the Source Wall.

Limbo, Monitor Sphere, and 6th Dimension are all part of the Multiverse which we agreed in its entirety is 1-C. These realms scales above the Local Multiverse/Orrery but not the entire Multoversal structure.

Is there something that's missing here?

 

[Elizio33]

Possibly 1-C is more reasonable because a straight 1-C Tier is a stretch for them given the feats they have shown in the comics. They are transcendent to the multiverse but this alone shouldn't justify a straight Tier 1, just a "possibility Tier 1."

 

[Elizio33]

Limbo, Monitor Sphere, and 6th Dimension are all part of the Multiverse which we agreed in its entirety is 1-C. These realms scaled above the Local Multiverse/Orrery but not the entire Multoversal structure.

Is there something that's missing here?

We agreed for a Low 1-C Multiversal structure. If the 8-D structure is accepted, it would be 1-C. The local Multiverse/Orrery is 4-D and the entirety of the multiversal structure is 8-D. Monitor Sphere, 5th Dimension, 6th Dimension scale to the 8-D structure.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

We agreed for a Low 1-C Multiversal structure. If the 8-D structure is accepted, it would be 1-C.

I'm confused. The Multiversal structure is the Multiverse that contains these realms. It grew from the Positive Matter Domain and the abundants of Earths from the Forge underneath the Orrey.

 

[Elizio33]

I'm confused. The Multiversal structure is the Multiverse that contains these realms. It grew from the Positive Matter Domain and the abundants of Earths from the Forge underneath the Orrey.

The multiversal structure comprises of the three matter-based realms -- the positive matter Orrery, the dark matter World Forge under the Orrery, the anti-matter Antimatter Universe at the outskirts of the Orrery.

The Sphere of the Gods is around the multiverse, at its edge, and at the outer edge of what is called the "manifest" multiverse is Comic Book Limbo.

The Fifth Dimension is the imaginary-thought "blood" between these realms and the Monitor Sphere is the edge of things, the "unmanifest" multiverse. The Sixth Dimension is the highest plane of existence of the multiverse.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The multiversal structure comprises of the three matter-based realms -- the positive matter Orrery, the dark matter World Forge, the anti-matter Antimatter Universe.

The Sphere of the Gods is around the multiverse, at its edge, and at the outer edge of what is called the "manifest" multiverse is Comic Book Limbo.

The Fifth Dimension is the imaginary-thought "blood" between these realms and the Monitor Sphere is the edge of things, the "unmanifest" multiverse. The Sixth Dimension is the highest plane of existence of the multiverse.

The Domain was all that was until it grew these parts. It was created during the creation of the Multiverse because it was part of that structure that grew into the Multiverse and all these realms later came due to this.

 

[Elizio33]

The Domain was all that was until it grew these parts. It was created during the creation of the Multiverse because it was part of that structure that grew into the Multiverse and all these realms later came due to this.

True, but the quoted characters should still scale into the 8-D multiversal structure for the reasons above.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

True, but the quoted characters should still scale into the 8-D multiversal structure for the reasons above.

From where they scale with the realms? Or because they have the potential to be above the structure?


You said the Totality of the Multiverse is an 8D structure that contains these realms. This means the entire structure is 1-C but the realms that comprised this “Totality” scale to it?

 

[Elizio33]

Either way, it's too early to think about revising the tiers for these characters since the currently accepted tiers from the previous DC Cosmology thread weren't yet applied to these characters. Rather, it was to revise the Morrison/Snyder/Tynion cosmology with scan mentioning the 8-dimensional mobius loop.

 

[Elizio33]

From where they scale with the realms? Or because they have the potential to be above the structure?


You said the Totality of the Multiverse is an 8D structure that contains these realms. This means the entire structure is 1-C but the realms that comprised this “Totality” scale to it?

The Monitor Sphere is the edge of things of the multiverse. The Fifth Dimension encompasses everything in the multiverse except the Sixth dimension. The Sixth Dimension is the highest plane of existence and the final realm of the multiverse. These realms are the highest planes of the multiverse, so I think 1-C can only apply to these three realms.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The Monitor Sphere is the edge of things of the multiverse. The Fifth Dimension encompasses everything in the multiverse except the Sixth dimension. The Sixth Dimension is the highest plane of existence and the final realm of the multiverse. These realms are the highest planes of the multiverse, so I think 1-C can only apply to these three realms.

The question is why do they scale to the structure that is considered 1-C that contains these realms. They are part of it so unless they are the structure itself why the 1-C? This is my last question.

Monitor Sphere being at the edge wouldn't make it the structure so how does it give it the 1-C that equates itself to the structure that could brain it? Same for the other stuff with 5D and 6D. At best maybe the Source Wall because it surrounds the entire structure while the rest are contained in it.

 

[Joshn05]

I agree with this. Pretty simple/straightforward. Makes sense imo. Though I personally think that it would be useful if there was more than one piece of evidence used to support an 8-D multiverse.

 

[Elizio33]

I agree with this. Pretty simple/straightforward. Makes sense imo. Though I personally think that it would be useful if there was more than one piece of evidence used to support an 8-D multiverse.

I think it's the only piece of evidence for a 8-D Multiverse. Other evidence comes from JLA stories which we do not use.

 

[LuciferX]

He mentioned the eight-dimensional Mobius Loop when he was talking about higher-dimensional perspective, how the two-dimensional continuum looks to us, and then Allen said "Imagine how your 3D world appears to me." This implies that this eight-dimensional mobius loop has a higher-dimensional nature and the DC cosmology of Morrison/Snyder/Tynion should be 8-D. I agree that the Orrery shouldn't be 8-D since structures like the Bleed were said to be 4-D but the multiverse is much more than just the Orrery so the totality of the multiverse should be 8-D. Overall, this cosmology should be 1-C instead of Low 1-C.

I agree with this though I still think Synder retconed Morrison's stuff.

 

[LuciferX]

I agree with this. Pretty simple/straightforward. Makes sense imo. Though I personally think that it would be useful if there was more than one piece of evidence used to support an 8-D multiverse.

There is a statement from JLA series that mentioned about eight dimensional mazes.

 

[Elizio33]

There is a statement from JLA series that mentioned about eight dimensional mazes.

Yes, but it has been decided not to use information from the JLA series although we can make an exception for this if others agree.

 

[Elizio33]

I agree with this though I still think Synder retconed Morrison's stuff.

Yeah, Snyder retconning a lot of Morrison's stuff, but primarily based his work on that of Morrison from 2008s and 2015s.

 

[LuciferX]

Yes, but it has been decided not to use information from the JLA series although we can make an exception for this if others agree.

Why? It was written by Morrison??

 

[LuciferX]

Imps shouldn't given 1-C tier because imps can be trapped inside six dimensional bottles. They are just 5D.

 

[Elizio33]

Why? It was written by Morrison??

Because it contradicts Snyder's cosmology. JLA stories suggests at least a 8-D multiverse while Snyder's Justice League stories suggested a 4-dimensional spatiotemporal multiverse, but since Snyder's work are an addition to Morrison’s work from 2008s and 2015s (with some retcons) which also mentions a 8-D structure, I think we can consider a 8-D multiverse for Morrison/Snyder/Tynion cosmology.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Because it contradicts Snyder's cosmology. JLA stories suggests at least a 8-D multiverse while Snyder's Justice League stories suggested a 4-dimensional spatiotemporal multiverse, but since Snyder's work are an addition to Morrison’s work from 2008s and 2015s (with some retcons) which also mentions a 8-D structure, I think we can consider a 8-D multiverse for Morrison/Snyder/Tynion cosmology.

When you put it like that then it kinda seems counterintuitive. If Synder add on the works but change the fundamental of what “was” written. His canon should be first, and by that virtue including 8-D Multiverse is a bit iffy.

 

[Elizio33]

When you put it like that then it kinda seems counterintuitive. If Synder add on the works but change the fundamental of what “was” written. His canon should be first, and by that virtue including 8-D Multiverse is a bit iffy.

True, but the only notable retcons were the Fifth Dimension, the origins of the Monitors and the Overvoid. These are the only retcons. The differences aren't that big, hence why it was decided to combine Snyder's work with that of Morrison.

 

[LuciferX]

Because it contradicts Snyder's cosmology. JLA stories suggests at least a 8-D multiverse while Snyder's Justice League stories suggested a 4-dimensional spatiotemporal multiverse, but since Snyder's work are an addition to Morrison’s work from 2008s and 2015s (with some retcons) which also mentions a 8-D structure, I think we can consider a 8-D multiverse for Morrison/Snyder/Tynion cosmology.

Well. Do you think Captian Allen Adam scale to 8-D structure? I don't think it's a part of orrey of worlds, higher dimensional structures could exist beyond multiverse or even omniverse. It would be better to scale to it through direct evidence on affecting those dimensions as we don't know where it exists in cosmology. the scan given above, suggests adam can manipulate it so 1-C scale for adam and beings above him make sense to me.

 

[Elizio33]

If there had been more differences, I doubt we would have even considered the idea of combining Scott Snyder's cosmology with Morrison's, but since the above differences are the only ones, a 8-D Multiverse is still a possibility.

 

[Elizio33]

Well. Do you think Captian Allen Adam scale to 8-D structure? I don't think it's a part of orrey of worlds, higher dimensional structures could exist beyond multiverse or even omniverse. It would be better to scale to it through direct evidence on affecting those dimensions as we don't know where it exists in cosmology. the scan given above, suggests adam can manipulate it so 1-C scale for adam and beings above him make sense to me.

Yes, I agree.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

True, but the only notable retcons were the Fifth Dimension, the origins of the Monitors and the Overvoid. These are the only retcons. The differences aren't that big, hence why it was decided to combine Snyder's work with that of Morrison.

How are would you connect each logic though? Separate the level of reality which are not geometrical dimension with the standard dimensionality?

For example, the 5th Dimension is above Time which is a 4-D construct represented as a concept that 5D Imps could control. So that would mean they could affect 6D geometrical spatial dimension but not the realm of 6D? It doesn't make sense, I would just keep what we have they way it is. It's following each step of dimension, if we add 8th then it is kinda contradictory of to what we know 6D is the limit and we can't equate 5D spatial dimension with Imagination.

 

[Xearsay]

Is the revision project done or something? If not, I don’t really understand why a change like this would be turned into a control thread instead of saved for later.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Is the revision project done or something? If not, I don’t really understand why a change like this would be turned into a control thread instead of saved for later.

I assume it was something for it when it's done. This is not going to be implemented until maybe after the revision is finished.

 

[Elizio33]

How are would you connect each logic though? Separate the level of reality which are not geometrical dimension with the standard dimensionality?

For example, the 5th Dimension is above Time which is a 4-D construct represented as a concept that 5D Imps could control. So that would mean they could affect 6D geometrical spatial dimension but not the realm of 6D? It doesn't make sense, I would just keep what we have they way it is. It's following each step of dimension, if we add 8th then it is kinda contradictory of to what we know 6D is the limit and we can't equate 5D spatial dimension with Imagination.

Well, it was decided to use a scan from the JLA stories that mentions a 4-dimensional spatiotemporal multiverse for our DC Cosmology blog, so why couldn't we at least use the 8-D maze mentioned during the Morrison's Crisis Times Five story? Not to mention that 8-D stuff is mentioned again in a more recent story by Grant Morrison.

I believe it was decided to use the 4-D scan of the JLA stories as further evidence for a 4-D Orrery coupled to those seen in the Snyder stories. It was something that didn't contradict Scott Snyder's work. We can do the same with the 8-D stuff but we need more advice for that.
Morrison's earlier JLA & Action Comics information that treats the Fifth Dimension as a geometric/mathematical dimension is superseded by Scott Snyder's work that treats the Fifth Dimension as a governing plane of existence that does not correlate with physics-based dimensions. But nothing really contradicts a 8-D multiverse since the 5th and 6th dimensions are planes of existence that govern reality, so I don't see why a 8-D multiverse isn't possible.

 

[Xearsay]

I assume it was something for it when it's done. This is not going to be implemented until maybe after the revision is finished.

What’s left in the revision? I don’t really understand why a thread like this should exist if the cosmology revision project hasn’t finished.