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(Grace) Kai Chisaki vs S2 Azula

Oha that's a cool fight, favouring Azula with that starting distance although Overhaul could maybe surprise this lesser version of her, then again she nigh effortlesly dodged or contered so much shit and just got really catched off guard as she was distracted by fighting others.

I think i#m going with Azula on this one.
 
So reading this thread over I can see a lot of issues. The first being is that Azula had fought against Earthbenders so Kai shouldn't have an issue. However this logic is incredibly flawed to the point where it's down right laughable. Earth bending and Overhaul are two very different abilities, only similarities are that they can both manipulation earth but Kai can manipulate earth is a much more versatile way. Such as being able to control and manipulate rocks in mid earth and even dust, which is something no earth bender has shown.


Also why the **** would Azula open up by starting by spamming her long ranged attacks? There's no reason for that, and she damn sure isn't gonna be able to deduce Kai's weakness of his hands being the soruce of his quirk, quite literally there would be nothing suggesting that she'd be able to tell that his arms are what she needs to go after. Hell, she never tried this tacit against any earth bender to remove limbs. And I'm not sure how she'd even go about doing so considering she lacks bladed weapons to actually remove them.


Even if Azula does decide to spam range she ain't gonna last forever, meanwhile Kai can simply evade, heal himself and attack from all angels, if she does decide to fly into the sky there's nothing stopped Kai from throwing a few rocks or pebbles into the sky and making them into spikes point blank away from Azula, which isn't something she'll be expecting since it's something she's never experienced.


I'm also seeing people giving Azula the skill advantage which is an iffy argument as best. Considering Kai can tango with the likes of Mirio who has direct training under Pro Heroes such as All Might and the other teachers at U.A, especially someone like Aizawa who can instantly dispatch large groups of villains quickly, even with a deconstructed elbow. At best she'd be slightly more skilled, she isn't Ikki or anything to the point where she'll dodge all of his attacks.


Her AP advantage is less than 3x, so it really isn't doing much. Matter of fact this would work against her, if she goes CQC she'll get yeeted on in one hit, if she wants to destroy the earth constructs it'll work against her seeing as how they'll reform from all directions. Kai could even manipulation different materials such as metal as opposed to spikes, to which she won't really have a counter to. Also no, speed is Equalized, her lightning attacks aren't going to be moving faster than her normal attacks, that's the equivalent of me saying that Zoro's Pound-Ho attacks are faster than his normal attacks, which again isn't the case. Agile opponents aren't anything new to Kai anyway, Deku, Mirio and Aizawa are perfect examples of this, with Deku also being significantly faster than Kai himself but can still defend himself for an extended period of time.


Long story short, Azula's votes shouldn't count considering the information is blatantly incorrect.
 
Also me likes how the dude above really called Deku, Sir Nighteye amd Aizawa fodder. Which is very far from the truth, that's almost like me saying saying "yall remember dat fodder that directed her lightning away?" despite "fodder" being Zuko.
 
Does Kai have to use his hands to use his quirk?

If so, it'll be pretty obvious to deduce that hand guy needs his hands, while Earth Benders... don't, typically.

Earth spikes are cool, but does that matter if the AP gap means Azula is unlikely to be hurt too much by a few pebbles?

I'd argue Azula's skill is better, given that MHA feats of skill are... Okay, at best. They have statements, yea, and Mirio can use his quirk in clever ways, but Kai's idea of 'skill' is honestly just 'blasting opponents with a whole lotta rocks' and all I've ever seen of him in the anime and manga backs this up. Azula isn't anything absurd, and I know less about her, but Avatar has shown more impressive animation and feats of skill in that than MHA.

I'm not voting yet, just asking questions. Someone said their AP gap was close to x3, another said it was nigh equal? What are the calcs? How likely is Azula to start with CQC versus range?
 
What does skill matter in this fight if Overhaul impales Azula with the entire battlefield moments after the fight has started? I have not seen a single feat from Azula that suggests she could dodge spikes rapidly forming near instantly all around her, worth he only argument being her fight against Aang and Toph, which I already showed was her being absolutely carried by the Dai Li agents. Chisaki's quirk Overhaul is faster than his own speed, as noted on his profile, so how is Azula going to dodge his attacks?

Overhaul's skill is his ability to predict the movements of his opponents with no previous knowledge of their abilities, which comes from being able to instantly react to and predict Mirio, who can pseudo teleport, with no information on his quirk or warnings whatsoever. Mirio only didn't die fighting Overhaul because his quirk directly countered him, Kai was predicting all of Mirio's movements even when he couldn't perceive him. Why wouldn't he be able to do the same to Azula? What skill feats does Azula have in season 2 that are so vastly above Chisaki's analysis?

This is season 2 Azula, she is 3.3 tons. Overhaul scales to above 3.19 tons. The AP gap doesn't exist at all, the person saying she had a 3x advantage was using an incorrect key.

Also, "blasting people with a lot of rocks" is quite a ridiculous downplay from "stabbing people from all directions near instantly with rocks that pierce through High 8-C's like butter."
 
Bob8999 said:
azulas defense and dura dont really matter overhaul bypasses dura, speed is equalized, i think thier intelligence is atleast similar, and how is she more versatile?
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Her defesne matters a lot, because Kai is not being able to physically go through her fire shield.

Speed is equalized, but Azula shoud be still more agile and more mobile

I don't see any reason to assume Kai would have the same intelligence, when has he shown that?.

And i personally think she is more versatile because she has attacks on all ranges, different ways to defend, can use fire, lightning, manipulate heat, has hand to hand skills, extreme acrobatic, can attack in several shapes and sizes, and so on.
 
If Overhaul will just impale entire battlefield with spikes there is no way Azula can win. It's not something she can dodge with equal speed which makes this a stomp
 
KingEzran said:
If Azula votes are invalid that means grace period is over so this can be added.
Click to expand...
Why got the thread not restarted, Azula's votes just completely removed, and Kai virtually just gifted a free win now?

I was not voting soley for that reason and have a lot of problems with many of the arguments for Kai:

Why would Azula have no counter for metal, her shield easily deflected Sokka's boomerang too.

Why would moving the element around be something that gives Kai more versatility than the benders, several benders and Azula herself can move their elements in mid air around.

Azula still seems to have a bit of a power advantage, and i don't 100% understand what is meant with wrong key?

The only times Azula was going for hand to hand was as she was taking the fights not serious like against Zuko or Suki who is not even a bender, why would she do that here?

I personally think Azua is more skilled, and i don't see why Kai being able to tango with opponents trained by Pro Heroes should change that.

I could go on, but that seems to be completely irrelevant now for some to me unknown reason.

I'm new, don't know 100% how it works on here, and i obviously think that Azula is more likely to take this fight, but i am pretty sure i would find what happened in his thread now always extremely shady.
 
Wait, why does Azula have 0 votes now. You can't jusy remove all of her votes because the arguments for her were addressed. I only believed any votes dependent on her AP should have been removed because they stemmed from a different key, not that all of them should go. That's not how that works.

Overhaul is more versatile than benders because he doesn't have to make any actual movements to use his ability, he just has to make contact, and he now has near perfect control over the entire battlefield. Benders aren't capable of near instantly doing what Overhaul does with nearly no tell whatsoever.

Overhaul also has a far bigger range than benders because he gets complete control I've the ENTIRE field, not just the ability to manipulate a small portion of it. The only way to dim his control is to attack the battlefield itself, and even then he can use the fragmented pieces to make even further attacks.

Azula does not have a strength advantage, as has been mentioned several times before.

I have never heard this "fire shield" argument for Azula, at least not in great enough detail for it to matter, would you mind expanding on that?

Overhaul can analyze and predict the movements of characters capable of pseudo teleportation, and can react to them even when he can't see them or is off guard. What skill feats does Azula have that stop Overhaul from dodging all of her attacks by analyzing her movements and moving himself with his quirk by altering the ground?

If Overhaul uses his quirk to make spikes of metal, his AP becomes higher as Metal is generally a harder material than rocks. His AP with just rocks is already comparable to Azula's, so an increase to it would definitely make it even harder for her to beat him.

This doesn't matter though since they're in an open field.

I still haven't seen an argument for Azula that deals with Overhaul just healing himself infinitely since she can't one shot him, and if she gets close he touches her and she dies.

Basically, to all the people saying "Azula is so much more skilled than Overhaul so she wins," what skill feats does she actually have that prevent her from being predicted by Overhaul? What feats does she have that are so tremendously above Overhaul's own that him predicting her movements is absolutely impossible? What feats does she have against earth benders that are even remotely close to good enough for her to dodge the entire battlefield turning into an attack against her? No earth bender has EVER attacked Azula on the same level that Overhaul is going to, so what feats does she have that save her?
 
Dude. I'm still in school you know. I don't have time to scout out every comment and figure out which ones voted Azula off of AP. You care. Can you do it for me?
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Wait, why does Azula have 0 votes now. You can't jusy remove all of her votes because the arguments for her were addressed. I only believed any votes dependent on her AP should have been removed because they stemmed from a different key, not that all of them should go. That's not how that works.
Click to expand...
I don't know, it seems like just restarting the thread would make the most sense if something imporant changed.

Overhaul is more versatile than benders because he doesn't have to make any actual movements to use his ability, he just has to make contact, and he now has near perfect control over the entire battlefield. Benders aren't capable of near instantly doing what Overhaul does with nearly no tell whatsoever.

Psychic Benders do that and at least earthbending don't tends to tell what will happen, and what has the movement even to do with versatility?

Overhaul also has a far bigger range than benders because he gets complete control I've the ENTIRE field, not just the ability to manipulate a small portion of it. The only way to dim his control is to attack the battlefield itself, and even then he can use the fragmented pieces to make even further attacks.

I don't think Kai ever manipulated such a huge area completely, and Azula can destroy parts of the battlefield.

Azula does not have a strength advantage, as has been mentioned several times before.

Wait i thought i saw some AP calculations, but Kai don't even seem to have any numbers for his AP feats, or i at least can't find them anymore?

I have never heard this "fire shield" argument for Azula, at least not in great enough detail for it to matter, would you mind expanding on that?

Azula made this surrounding fire shield as a counter to all the four elements of the Gaang, and Sokka's boomerang:

https://imgur.com/gallery/g3Grd3p

It can deflect attacks, explode, create a smoke screen, and you obviously don't want to try going physically near that.

Overhaul can analyze and predict the movements of characters capable of pseudo teleportation, and can react to them even when he can't see them or is off guard. What skill feats does Azula have that stop Overhaul from dodging all of her attacks by analyzing her movements and moving himself with his quirk by altering the ground?

Azula was able to dodge air attacks of Aang without looking at them, that was not in book 2 but without bending, and Azula did not really change between the books. Analyzed a genetic pattern of a volleyball player and invented a plan for that on the fly by shortly glancing at their game, has shown psychological warfare and high hand to hand skills several times, and also replicated moves from other benders after fighting them. I would personally say Azula has more skill versatility than Kai, and that makes her more skilled.

If Overhaul uses his quirk to make spikes of metal, as he is in time square of New York, his AP becomes higher as Metal is generally a harder material than rocks. His AP with just rocks is already comparable to Azula's, so an increase to it would definitely make it even harder for her to beat him.

Where can i find numbers for his AP, especially with metal?

I still haven't seen an argument for Azula that deals with Overhaul just healing himself infinitely since she can't one shot him, and if she gets close he touches her and she dies.

Since when is his healing infinite that sounds like a heavy no limit fallacy, and why should Azula try to get close?

Basically, to all the people saying "Azula is so much more skilled than Overhaul so she wins," what skill feats does she actually have that prevent her from being predicted by Overhaul? What feats does she have that are so tremendously above Overhaul's own that him predicting her movements is absolutely impossible? What feats does she have against earth benders that are even remotely close to good enough for her to dodge the entire battlefield turning into an attack against her? No earth bender has EVER attacked Azula on the same level that Overhaul is going to, so what feats does she have that save her?

What skill feats has he that makes him impossible to predict going by that would both just dodge each until they lose their stamina, and since when can he completely manipulate a battlefield of the size of the whole Times Square area? Azula could just use her fake flight, and destroy whatever he creates out of the part of Times Square he manipulates, becuse he can't manipulate air or anything like that.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Wait, why does Azula have 0 votes now. You can't jusy remove all of her votes because the arguments for her were addressed. I only believed any votes dependent on her AP should have been removed because they stemmed from a different key, not that all of them should go. That's not how that works.
Click to expand...
The only one that really said something was The Wright Way and he just said "The OP needs to remove Azula's votes." That is completely unclear to which votes.
 
KingEzran said:
Kingofwolves999 said:
Wait, why does Azula have 0 votes now. You can't jusy remove all of her votes because the arguments for her were addressed. I only believed any votes dependent on her AP should have been removed because they stemmed from a different key, not that all of them should go. That's not how that works.
Click to expand...
The only one that really said something was The Wright Way and he just said "The OP needs to remove Azula's votes." That is completely unclear to which votes.
Click to expand...
Just restart the thread or make a new one, it makes not the slightest sense to just completely remove votes if new informations are available, without even asking these users what they think now in my opinion.
 
If no one voted for Azula based purely on her AP than all her votes should still be valid. I only said to drop those votes because one of the biggest advantages stated at the start of this thread was Azula having 3x Overhaul's AP.
 
Thank you for giving actual arguments and constructive reasoning. Lord knows this thread needed more of it.

Bending inherently has obvious tells because the benders need to make martial arts like movements to bend their elements. Azula needs to point her hand in the direction she wants to shoot her fire, Earth benders need to force the earth to move in the direction they want, etc. Overhaul doesn't have this restriction as he just touches the ground and now has control over it. He can do everything an earth bender can do but faster, with less effort, and with less of a reaction window. That's not even mentioning that earth benders method of attack is mostly limited to just throwing boulders or waves of earth at their opponent, as opposed to Kai being able to make actual constructs with just a thought. Even the most skilled benders like Toph default to those methods of attacks, and don't really manipulate the earth directly under an opponents feet as often as they should.

Kai has definitely manipulated large areas with his quirk, that's where the range on his profile comes from. I posted pictures near the start of the thread showing how vast his range is, as he had full control over tens of meters of the battlefield, and only had his control broken because Deku started breaking the ground.

Overhaul scales to above 3.19 tons. Azula in season 2 is 3.3 tons, hence why the AP difference is basically non existent.

That fire shield? Wouldn't Overhaul just stab her again when she lets it down? Is that something she can spam on a whim? It protected her from a single barrage of attacks coming from in front her, but the explosion covered her escape. If she could take on all of team avatar + Zuko just by spamming that shield, or if she could win every fight by using it, why doesn't she? It seems like a good defensive option, but I don't think in character Azula would use it enough to make a difference here, and she'd run out of stamina even if she did decide to use it thanks to Overhaul's incredible stamina and quirk.

Dodging attacks from Aang is really the only noteworthy feat Azula has that you listed, and since she had help from Dai Li agents and was focused ONLY on running, I have doubts of her effectiveness when she's actually fighting, especially against someone like Overhaul. Her analyzing someone's personality and genetics shows she's great at analyzing people to find their mental weaknesses if they're stupid, as well as planning around their shortcomings, but she doesn't ever do that to team avatar or any actual threat to her. Aang, Katara, even pre s3 Zuko have managed to land hits on Azula, isn't it possible that the reasons she's claimed as so smart is that the majority of people she faces aren't as competent of fighters as her? Against people that actually know how to fight, Azula is still very overwhelming and a clear cut above the rest, but she isn't so vastly above others that she can analyze their entire fighting styles moments after meeting them. And what would she even gain from observing Overhaul anyway? All he does is touch the ground and form it the way he wants.

Also, how do any of the feats you gave me counter her being predicted by Overhaul? Mirio is a prodigy at fighting as well, and had even more ways of being unpredictable than Azula, such as his pseudo teleportation, erasing his presence, and even sinking into the floor, yet Overhaul could predict his moves anyway. Azula being skilled doesn't negate Chisaki's own skills, and the fact she hasn't encountered anything like his method of analysis and prediction leads me to believe she can't deal with it like she can other people.

Overhaul can heal himself infinitely with his quirk. By breaking himself and reforming, he gets rid of any injures he has sustained, while also completely refreshing his stamina. The only draw back is it hurts to do, but his pain tolerance is insanely high. That's just how his quirk works when used on someone, it's not a no limits fallacy.

If push comes to shove, Overhaul can literally just out last Azula.

His AP is above 3.19 tons scaling from surviving a shockwave from 100% Deku, which can only be compared to Fat Gum's weakened spear attack, which Rappa and Tengai survived. There is no AP value for him using metal, and the location of the fight is an open plain, not time square.

How high can Azula go with her flight? Because Overhaul can make spikes tens of meters into the air to impale her even while he's on the ground. He can also just raise the earth up underneath him to get into the the sky himself, then use said earth to keep attacking her. Azula can't escape Overhaul even by flying.
 
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