Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 2: Getting to work

[Sniper670]

Nope. Mew shouldn't be 2A, and mewtwo was the strongest in Gen 1, not the entire lasagna

 

[Ayewale]

Anyway. In the anime, Beheeyem created a dream world where officer Jenny physically broke into

And the Dream world was 1:1 the universe with stars and all. Outlier?

Most certainly an outlier.

Oh yeah, maybe we can finally get around to scaling trainers to their pokemon given that almost every named trainer in the franchise has either fought pokemon themselves or withstood attacks from pokemon

That would depend a lot of the context (whether the pokemon was actually trying to hurt them) and the specific Pokemon at hand (I doubt 'every named trainer' has had their own Pokemon try to kill them). I also don't think this would scale to their AP, aside from very specific trainers.

There's certainly trainers who are confirmed to be as strong as their Pokemon (fighting gym people in particular) but given other pokemon trainers 7-C AP is pretty ridiculous considering...everything we see in the series.

Then there's also the fact that their durability is wildly inconsistent so it'd be difficult to ever establish some sort of consistency between trainers.

Finally...we already do exactly that for a lot of profiles. What we should get around to doing is nerfing their AP, because 2-C player protagonists is incredibly stupid.

 

[Ayewale]

Nope. Mew shouldn't be 2A, and mewtwo was the strongest in Gen 1, not the entire lasagna

Mewtwo's been calling itself the strongest Pokemon/legendary multiple times, nearly every time it's appeared. Also, we treat all of the anime movies as equally canon: all of the other region's Pokemon existed at the same time as Kanto, so there's no reason why Mewtwo being the strongest Pokemon is a statement that only applies to generation 1 Pokemon in the anime.

 

[Sniper670]

Most certainly an outlier.

I doubt it's an outlier. Darkrai has done the same thing before , Mismagius has done it twice

It makes sense, Interdream Zone seperates Dreams from Realities and its mentioned in the games that dreams are real. Plus, in the anime, Dialga and Palkia space time distortion begun to manifest dreams irl

 

[LordTracer]

Finally...we already do exactly that for a lot of profiles. What we should get around to doing is nerfing their AP, because 2-C player protagonists is incredibly stupid.

Ehhhh, protagonists scaling to the Legendaries from their games (including the Gen 4 protagonists) was accepted.

Also you should put Mew at Unknown if we’re not scaling all Pokemon in the same evolutionary stage to each other.

 

[Sniper670]

Mewtwo's been calling itself the strongest Pokemon/legendary multiple times, nearly every time it's appeared. Also, we treat all of the anime movies as equally canon: all of the other region's Pokemon existed at the same time as Kanto, so there's no reason why Mewtwo being the strongest Pokemon is a statement that only applies to generation 1 Pokemon in the anime.

FR?

Mewtwo who barely left anywhere From Kanto said he's the strongest so that means he's stronger than Dialga/Palkia. Have they even met before. Nah, he's certainly not tier 2. Nowhere close

I don't remember where it was mentioned that Mewtwo is the strongest out of all Legendary Pokémon. Id like to see scans of that. Glancing through the Pokedex, nothing of sorts was mentioned

Also

Despite its diminished size, its mental power has grown phenomenally. With a mere thought, it can smash a skyscraper to smithereens

 

[Sniper670]

It's like saying, because Koraidon and miraidon are mentioned to be far more powerful than other Pokémon, that means he's stronger than Arceus. Lol

 

[Ayewale]

I doubt it's an outlier. Darkrai has done the same thing before , Mismagius has done it twice

It makes sense, Interdream Zone seperates Dreams from Realities and its mentioned in the games that dreams are real. Plus, in the anime, Dialga and Palkia space time distortion begun to manifest dreams irl

Darkrai is a legendary, and it's an outlier for Mismagius as well.

FR?

Mewtwo who barely left anywhere From Kanto said he's the strongest so that means he's stronger than Dialga/Palkia. Have they even met before. Nah, he's certainly not tier 2. Nowhere close

I don't remember where it was mentioned that Mewtwo is the strongest out of all Legendary Pokémon. Id like to see scans of that. Glancing through the Pokedex, nothing of sorts was mentioned

Also

From the scientist/scientists that created Mewtwo "We were attempting to create the world's strongest Pokemon...and we succeeded." Mewtwo itself is also extremely confident in it's ability that it's "the strongest Pokemon". Granted, this is somewhat shaky grounds for scaling to dialga and palkia, but it is indirectly supported by Hoopa and the Clash of Ages, which featured a huge amounts of legends all fighting one another, Dialga and Palkia included. Even if you assumed Mewtwo only scaled above the not-2-C Pokemon, many of those Pokemon scale to dialga and palkia regardless.

It's like saying, because Koraidon and miraidon are mentioned to be far more powerful than other Pokémon, that means he's stronger than Arceus. Lol

That's a super disingenuous comparison. Nearly every signle boxart legend (and legendaries in general) are regarded as vaguely powerful Pokemon. Mewtwo is explicitly referred to as "the strongest Pokemon" multiple times.

 

[Sniper670]

Darkrai is a legendary, and it's an outlier for Mismagius as well.

It's not an outlier. That's why Anti psychic laws exist in the anime. To curb these things. As psychic Pokémon are Notorious for this.

Plus, it's not even that impressive. Musharna can manifest dreams into reality lol

From the scientist/scientists that created Mewtwo "We were attempting to create the world's strongest Pokemon...and we succeeded." Mewtwo itself is also extremely confident in it's ability that it's "the strongest Pokemon". Granted, this is somewhat shaky grounds for scaling to dialga and palkia, but it is indirectly supported by Hoopa and the Clash of Ages, which featured a huge amounts of legends all fighting one another, Dialga and Palkia included. Even if you assumed Mewtwo only scaled above the not-2-C Pokemon, many of those Pokemon scale to dialga and palkia regardless.

He won't scale anywhere close to tier 2, as the Scientists have no way of gauging legendary Pokémon who are beyond their grasps.

Simply modifying the DNA of a non tier 2 Pokémon and extrapolating it to tier 2 based on flimsy statements like these are a no

That's a super disingenuous comparison. Nearly every signle boxart legend (and legendaries in general) are regarded as vaguely powerful Pokemon. Mewtwo is explicitly referred to as "the strongest Pokemon" multiple times.

Yes, Koraidon and Miraidon are also explicitly referred to as the most powerful of all Pokémon.

Literally, are you telling me mewtwo is stronger than Arceus. That's what you're implying here. And with what proof?

Because a newly born mewtwo says he's the strongest. Really?

 

[Sniper670]

Fr, I don't even think trainer mons should scale to legendaries.

A really bloodlusted Kyogre, will flood the Earth, Dialga could just stop time and give you a good beating, Palkia could just warp the player into a volcano..... but they dont. What does it tell us?

The legendaries are holding back. This cannot be quantified by how much. I fully disagree with trainers scaling to legendaries in any way shape or form

 

[Sniper670]

Mewtwo can literally crumble a skyscraper with a mere thought, and what stops him from killing the player and his Pikachu

 

[Sniper670]

In fact I'll say all Pokémon are holding back. They literally want to be caught. What stops Pikachu from thunder waving the player and dropping some cloud to ground lightning on his head. What stops a psychic Pokémon from crushing the player. Instead, they decide to engage, to be caught and to help humans

When first this land was formed, man and ’mon lived happily, sharing all that they could see, by kind acts born and warmed. “One Pokémon then proposed that they should always ready be to help the humans should they need, and let their presence be disclosed. “And that is why, to this day, not all Pokémon do flee when a human they do see— they leap out where tall grasses sway.”

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

could we use stats to scale pokemon to each other, not necessarily trying to get exact numbers but just "this pokemon has higher attack than this pokemon so it scales" (and leave legendaries out of it of course)

also im going to go check the pokemon category for any calcs that havent been mentioned yet

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

In fact I'll say all Pokémon are holding back. They literally want to be caught. What stops Pikachu from thunder waving the player and dropping some cloud to ground lightning on his head. What stops a psychic Pokémon from crushing the player. Instead, they decide to engage, to be caught and to help humans

id say thats a mixture of game mechanics and plot induced stupidity

 

[Ayewale]

could we use stats to scale pokemon to each other, not necessarily trying to get exact numbers but just "this pokemon has higher attack than this pokemon so it scales" (and leave legendaries out of it of course)

also im going to go check the pokemon category for any calcs that havent been mentioned yet

No, we can't. I don't think we ever use stats for scaling game verses unless it's proven that the stats are literal representations of lore-related strength or something similar.

Fr, I don't even think trainer mons should scale to legendaries.

A really bloodlusted Kyogre, will flood the Earth, Dialga could just stop time and give you a good beating, Palkia could just warp the player into a volcano..... but they dont. What does it tell us?

The legendaries are holding back. This cannot be quantified by how much. I fully disagree with trainers scaling to legendaries in any way shape or form

Agreed.

It's not an outlier. That's why Anti psychic laws exist in the anime. To curb these things. As psychic Pokémon are Notorious for this.

Plus, it's not even that impressive. Musharna can manifest dreams into reality lol

He won't scale anywhere close to tier 2, as the Scientists have no way of gauging legendary Pokémon who are beyond their grasps.

Simply modifying the DNA of a non tier 2 Pokémon and extrapolating it to tier 2 based on flimsy statements like these are a no

Yes, Koraidon and Miraidon are also explicitly referred to as the most powerful of all Pokémon.

Literally, are you telling me mewtwo is stronger than Arceus. That's what you're implying here. And with what proof?

Because a newly born mewtwo says he's the strongest. Really?

'The scientists have no way of gauging legendary Pokemon' apart from knowing their power from (well-known) myths and legend? Which is how we know about the power of the legendaries in the first place? Mewtwo being newly born also doesn't mean anything considering it's still extremely intelligent (plus, being newly-born doesn't really mean anything; you could give birth to an abra, feed it rare candies, trade it and have it evolve into alakazam in the same hour; this doesn't reduce alakazam's intelligence). You also ignored that Mewtwo being the strongest is supported by scaling.

I dunno about koraidon being the strongest of all pokemon, especially since those games aren't out yet so there's no information to garner this from apart from hype statements from a game trailer. We can't scale koraidon and miraidon because they don't ******* exist. Unironically, depending on how wild the story of SV get they could very well scale that high-what then? We have to wait and see.

Mushearna's abilities aren't any form of AP, iirc. It doesn't even have a profile.

 

[LordTracer]

Mewtwo can literally crumble a skyscraper with a mere thought, and what stops him from killing the player and his Pikachu

This honestly just sounds like argument from incredulity.

 

[Lou_change]

Game Mew should scale in my opinion higher then 8-A for a few reasons one metronome which means it can use most moves, two consistently stated to be able to learn every move, three unlike ditto whose ability to use transform is explained to be because of it altering it's cells and genes which somehow allows it to turn into a rock, it's likely mew's ability to transform is because it already has the genes of what it is copying, four this is the least credible argument but it base stats are higher than most Pokemon only the dragon type has a higher average fully evolved stats and they are the type with the most mascot legendaries. I think we can reasonably conclude it was meant to be stronger than base form Pokemon.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Oh yeah, maybe we can finally get around to scaling trainers to their pokemon given that almost every named trainer in the franchise has either fought pokemon themselves or withstood attacks from pokemon

Not every trainer scales to each other

 

[Thelastmlg]

Yeah i agree there is incredulity there but mewtwo's statement of being the strongest means jackshit when other pokemon got that too, he is not omniscient, also what scaling puts mewtwo as the strongest?

We also have entries of non legendaries having the strongests punches and kicks and being immune to any attack, besides the two new legendaries being called the most powerful pokemon.

So no, two statements aren't enough to automatically justify tier 2 when all his other feats are far below it, you gotta actually analyse who he would reasonably scale thanks to it.

Also pretty sure the canon split means it will only be the game version so the movies don't help.

 

[Sniper670]

Why not have mew be 2A via Transform.

It's a much better justification than scientists saying mewtwo is the strongest legendary

 

[Ayewale]

Game Mew should scale in my opinion higher then 8-A for a few reasons one metronome which means it can use most moves, two consistently stated to be able to learn every move, three unlike ditto whose ability to use transform is explained to be because of it altering it's cells and genes which somehow allows it to turn into a rock, it's likely mew's ability to transform is because it already has the genes of what it is copying, four this is the least credible argument but it base stats are higher than most Pokemon only the dragon type has a higher average fully evolved stats and they are the type with the most mascot legendaries. I think we can reasonably conclude it was meant to be stronger than base form Pokemon.

Learning most moves doesn't mean you scale higher, huh? Do we scale Smearlge higher because of that? The first, second and third reason mean nothing (also the thing on mew being able to transform because of it's genes is pure headcanon). It stats also aren't that high: 100 base attack is outclassed by loads of Pokemon, and a high BST =/= the Pokemon scales above other Pokemon, like...huh?

None of this provide any reason as to why Mew should scale above Tyranitar or any similar mons. I will at best give it a Possibly [Tier] rating but a solid tier isn't possible because Mew scales off nothing and it's never, ever been renowned for it's strength in-game.

Yeah i agree there is incredulity there but mewtwo's statement of being the strongest means jackshit when other pokemon got that too, he is not omniscient, also what scaling puts mewtwo as the strongest?

We also have entries of non legendaries having the strongests punches and kicks and being immune to any attack, besides the two new legendaries being called the most powerful pokemon.

So no, two statements aren't enough to automatically justify tier 2 when all his other feats are far below it, you gotta actually analyse who he would reasonably scale thanks to it.

Also pretty sure the canon split means it will only be the game version so the movies don't help.

Mewtwo scaling to other legendaries = Most anime legendaries being able to contend with Dialga and Palkia = Mewtwo is tier 2.

Mewtwo's statements of being the strongest, apart from the fact that they've been stated several times by several characters and even scientists, is mostly supporting evidence. We take the entries from non-legendaries having the strongest punches as NLF because we treat lots of stuff from the pokedex as No Limits Fallacy. But this isn't a pokedex entry; this is pretty solid scaling backed up by reliable statements.

And we're referring to the anime version.

Why not have mew be 2A via Transform.

It's a much better justification than scientists saying mewtwo is the strongest legendary

Is everybody going to ignore the fact that Mewtwo just scales to tier 2 alongside most anime legendaries due to hoopa and the clash of ages???

 

[LordTracer]

None of this provide any reason as to why Mew should scale above Tyranitar or any similar mons. I will at best give it a Possibly [Tier] rating but a solid tier isn't possible because Mew scales off nothing and it's never, ever been renowned for it's strength in-game.

Then I ask for the third time now, why even scale it above basic Pokémon? Why not just make it Unknown?

 

[Sniper670]

Is everybody going to ignore the fact that Mewtwo just scales to tier 2 alongside most anime legendaries due to hoopa and the clash of ages???

Why tier 2? I don't remember Hoopa harming any of the CT

And no, none of them were going all out. Dialga/ Palkia were threatening two timelines while seriously fighting

And I don't believe mewtwo could do anything if they decided to erase the universe

 

[LordTracer]

And I don't believe mewtwo could do anything if they decided to erase the universe

Argument from incredulity isn’t an argument, dude. Just because you personally can’t believe something doesn’t mean it’s untrue.

 

[Sniper670]

Am I wrong. I can show you the fight if you want

Mewtwo is nothing at all. Inconsequential. And we're not going to give tier 2 to just about anyone because some scientists say mewtwo is the strongest legendary

 

[LordTracer]

Am I wrong. I can show you the fight if you want

Mewtwo is nothing at all. Inconsequential. And we're not going to give tier 2 to just about anyone because some scientists say mewtwo is the strongest legendary

I’m not even agreeing with 2-A Mewtwo, but you going “I don’t believe it” is not a proper refutation.

 

[Lou_change]

Learning most moves doesn't mean you scale higher, huh? Do we scale Smearlge higher because of that? The first, second and third reason mean nothing (also the thing on mew being able to transform because of it's genes is pure headcanon). It stats also aren't that high: 100 base attack is outclassed by loads of Pokemon, and a high BST =/= the Pokemon scales above other Pokemon, like...huh?

None of this provide any reason as to why Mew should scale above Tyranitar or any similar mons. I will at best give it a Possibly [Tier] rating but a solid tier isn't possible because Mew scales off nothing and it's never, ever been renowned for it's strength in-game.

Mewtwo scaling to other legendaries = Most anime legendaries being able to contend with Dialga and Palkia = Mewtwo is tier 2.

Mewtwo's statements of being the strongest, apart from the fact that they've been stated several times by several characters and even scientists, is mostly supporting evidence. We take the entries from non-legendaries having the strongest punches as NLF because we treat lots of stuff from the pokedex as No Limits Fallacy. But this isn't a pokedex entry; this is pretty solid scaling backed up by reliable statements.

And we're referring to the anime version.

Is everybody going to ignore the fact that Mewtwo just scales to tier 2 alongside most anime legendaries due to hoopa and the clash of ages???

Half the feats we are looking at are moves the fact it has the ability to use them is evidence it should scale to them.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Since when did any legendaries consistently fight dialga and palkia??? Hoopa did nothing besides summoning them and then putting them back, and doing so once when the rest of their feats are far lower is the definition of a outlier.

Statements don't matter when feats and lore contradict them, mewtwo's feats are all below tier 5 and you wanna scale him to tier 2 when he never faced said legendaries, plus would help actually having said statements, as long as they happened after the creation and lake trio's debut there.

Not only that, from what i recall in the anime the only scientiests able to study the tier 2 legendaries were that dude in the darkrai movie and the woman in the jewel of life, so would help having proof that they are actually able to study them.

Obviously gotta take bulbapedia with a grain of salt but they say there that the creation trio's are "nearly impossible to study", so if there is evidence that's wrong, gonna need that too.

Also, while this doesn't matter to him getting tier 2 or not, gotta remind everyone that even if he scaled, he wouldn't scale to arceus because mind plate, only the creation trio

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yall know this is just for the games right?

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

Learning most moves doesn't mean you scale higher, huh? Do we scale Smearlge higher because of that? The first, second and third reason mean nothing (also the thing on mew being able to transform because of it's genes is pure headcanon). It stats also aren't that high: 100 base attack is outclassed by loads of Pokemon, and a high BST =/= the Pokemon scales above other Pokemon, like...huh?

None of this provide any reason as to why Mew should scale above Tyranitar or any similar mons. I will at best give it a Possibly [Tier] rating but a solid tier isn't possible because Mew scales off nothing and it's never, ever been renowned for it's strength in-game.

Mewtwo scaling to other legendaries = Most anime legendaries being able to contend with Dialga and Palkia = Mewtwo is tier 2.

Mewtwo's statements of being the strongest, apart from the fact that they've been stated several times by several characters and even scientists, is mostly supporting evidence. We take the entries from non-legendaries having the strongest punches as NLF because we treat lots of stuff from the pokedex as No Limits Fallacy. But this isn't a pokedex entry; this is pretty solid scaling backed up by reliable statements.

And we're referring to the anime version.

Is everybody going to ignore the fact that Mewtwo just scales to tier 2 alongside most anime legendaries due to hoopa and the clash of ages???

if several moves are calcable just based on what they are alone how would pokemon like mew and smeargle not scale, theyre literally doing the thing, it doesnt even need to be physicals because most of the moves that give significant results are things like draco meteor or the various weather-related moves

 

[Thelastmlg]

Yall know this is just for the games right?

Yeah i mentioned that mewtwo's page will probably be focused on the games, maybe we will make a anime page but he started bringing up anime mewtwo for some reason, pretty sure he also used it for the revision sandbox despite this being for games?

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

hey what spinoffs are we including in main line profiles, i cant remember if were counting things like pokken or stadium

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Stadium and Pokken should be fine? I think it would really only apply to games that are explicitly alternate universes, like PMD and Conquest

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

k

 

[Emerald]

Bump

 

[Thelastmlg]

what shall we do now, search for gen 3 pokedex entries?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

what shall we do now, search for gen 3 pokedex entries?

Why gen 3 specifically?

 

[Thelastmlg]

because i just did gen 2 so i assumed we'd go in order

 

[Sniper670]

Let's start with Gen 3 the

Is Gardevoir black hole thing calculabe?

Also, Exploud can trigger earthquakes by shouting

Exploud triggers earthquakes with the tremors it creates by bellowing. If this Pokémon violently inhales from the ports on its body, it's a sign that it is preparing to let loose a huge bellow.

Makuhita

It stomps on the ground to build power. It can send a 10 ton truck flying with a straight arm punch

It has a habit of challenging others without hesitation to tests of strength. It's been known to stand on train tracks and stop trains using forearm thrusts

 

[Pikaman]

I stopped getting notifications on this for some reason, what’s the current situation?