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Golden Age Superman Modern Key Upgrade

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Firestorm808

Firestorm808

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I would like to propose upgrading Golden Age Superman to Low 2-C like Superboy-Prime. My reasonings are below. This rating will not scale to Post-Crisis Superman due to consistancy. What do you think?

During the Silver Age, Kal-L was equal to Kal-El. Kal-El at the time was some degree of Multiversal. Over time, Kal-L did get weaker in comparison.

  • Kal-L states Kal-El is stronger. Luthor adds that Kal-L's powers are a shadow to Kal-El's. | DC Comics Presents Annual Vol 1 #1 1982
  • Kal-El traded blows with Dr. Sivana who had had the power of SHAZAM. Sivana defeats Kal-L. Kal-L is described as old with waning power compared to Kal-El. He held his own temporarily before getting overpowered. Sivana states he's incapable of killing Kal-L without Kryptonite. | DC Comics Presents Annual Vol 1 #3 1984
By the time Infinite Crisis rolls around, he's even older as shown with Lois dying of old age.

  • By Infinite Crisis, Superboy-Prime could alter the timeline with his punches while deprived of sunlight. Superboy-Prime needed Luthor's Anti-Matter powers to punch out of their paradise dimension. | Infinite Crisis Secret Files and Origins March 2006
  • Kal-L punched through the dimension on his own with the same lack of sunlight, allegedly bleeding. | Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #1 December 2005
  • His conflict with Kal-L shatters the boundaries of local space-time. Superman of New Earth fights with the Superman of Earth-Two in the skies of Metropolis above the Daily Star on Earth-Two. With each crushing blow, each man lives the life of the other. Punch allegedly break the world. | Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #5 April 2006, Superman Vol 2 #226 April 2006, Action Comics Vol 1 #836 April 2006 , Adventures of Superman Vol 1 #649 April 2006
    • This feat is more consistant with Golden Age Superman than it is with Post-Crisis Superman
  • "The DCU shakes apart as Superman of Earth 2 finally confronts our Superman. Meanwhile, heroes are disappearing throughout the DC Universe, a transformed villain returns, and the mystics of every world and dimension seek help from the very Spirit that is destroying them." | DC Comics Site
    • This type of feat is 1 Universal/Timeline worth. So, Kal-L went from some degree of Multiversal to just Universal.
  • Superman and Kal-L fight Doomsday and Bizaaro. Doomsday's bone snaps on Kal-L. Kal-L tanks an attack that hurts Power Girl. | Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #7 June 2006
 
I still think that it seems better to keep his Silver Age and Infinite Crisis power levels separate, due to how prominent his even clash with the Post-Crisis Superman was.
 
Yes, his Silver Age and Infinite Crisis powers are on different levels. In Infinite Crisis, he and Superboy-Prime both displayed Low 2-C feats, not 2-C. We also agree that this rating is consistant with Golden Age's introduction into Post-Crisis. The results of the battle between the two Supermen is still consistant with Kal-L. PC Superman fighting on par with Kal-L is an outlier just like his victory over Emanation Darkseid.
 
Okay. For simplicity's sake, can you list the Low 2-C post-Crisis feats again?
 
  • Low 2-C | By Infinite Crisis, Superboy-Prime could alter the timeline with his punches while deprived of sunlight. After that, Superboy-Prime needed Luthor's Anti-Matter powers to punch out of their paradise dimension. | Infinite Crisis Secret Files and Origins March 2006
  • Low 2-C | Kal-L bled as he punched through the paradise dimension on his own with the same lack of sunlight. | Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #1 December 2005
  • Low 2-C | His conflict with Kal-L shatters the boundaries of local space-time. Superman of New Earth fights with the Superman of Earth-Two in the skies of Metropolis above the Daily Star on Earth-Two. With each crushing blow, each man lives the life of the other. Punch allegedly break the world. | Infinite Crisis Vol 1 #5 April 2006, Superman Vol 2 #226 April 2006, Action Comics Vol 1 #836 April 2006 , Adventures of Superman Vol 1 #649 April 2006
    • "The DCU shakes apart as Superman of Earth 2 finally confronts our Superman. Meanwhile, heroes are disappearing throughout the DC Universe, a transformed villain returns, and the mystics of every world and dimension seek help from the very Spirit that is destroying them." | DC Comics Site
 
I think that the conflict with the Post-Crisis Superman was mainly causing space-time distortions as a metafictional commentary because they are different versions of the same person, that both the original Superman and Superboy-Prime were weakened/not at full power when punching their way out of the paradise dimension, and that both are unquantifiable feats.

In addition, Magog killed him previously when travelling through Hypertime.

I personally much prefer to keep him scaled from Post-Crisis Superman.
 
Also, doesn't the above list show that Kal-L is stronger than Superboy-Prime.

Superboy's retcon punches < Superboy + Antimatter powers < Kal-L
 
Firestorm808 said:
Also, doesn't the above list show that Kal-L is stronger than Superboy-Prime.

Superboy's retcon punches < Superboy + Antimatter powers < Kal-L
Click to expand...
What do you mean?
 
In a fit of rage, Superboy punches the barrier and accidentally retcons the timeline. Superboy says that he can't break the barrier, but Luthor gives him Anti-Matter Energy to do so. Meanwhile, we have Kal-L who breaks the barrier with his own power.
 
When does Gog kill Kal-L?

https://***************.to/Comic/The-Kingdom/Issue-2?id=83865
 
Well, Superboy-Prime was not initially portrayed at anywhere near a Low 2-C scale, and changing small events across time is usually not portrayed as the same thing as a power sufficient to change an entire timeline. In addition, the barrier was likely weakened after Superboy-Prime broke free.

One of the Supermen that was killed by Gog was the original, who was then returned to life within his prison afterwards.

Anyway, it is possible that you are correct. I am just uncomfortable with scaling the original to Superboy-Prime when the Post-Crisis version was seemingly able to keep up with him. We at least have to mention within the original Superman's page that we consider it as an outlier for the Post-Crisis incarnation.
 
What do you think POTM, and would you be willing to handle any potential changes?
 
Firestorm808 said:
In a fit of rage, Superboy punches the barrier and accidentally retcons the timeline. Superboy says that he can't break the barrier, but Luthor gives him Anti-Matter Energy to do so. Meanwhile, we have Kal-L who breaks the barrier with his own power.
Click to expand...
But to be fair didn't it take him awhile to actually break it and causing his fists to bleed?
 
Superboys says that Kal-L bled, but Infinite Crisis #1 shows that he didn't really bleed and that it didn't take that long.

Also, I can't seem to find the page concerning the Supermen Gog killed.
 
Here:

https://***************.to/Comic/The-Kingdom/Issue-1?id=83864

Also, you can check the epilogue in issue 2 for the resurrected original Superman.
 
It just says that Golden Age is stuck in his paradise dimension. The ones who died are just different versions of Kingdom Come Superman judging by their symbols. Due to Gog's backstory, it makes sense that he's only killing Kingdom Come Superman earlier and earlier in his life.

Is it a different page?
 
From what I remember it happened in issue #1, but he was restored to life in issue #2.
 
I believe you may have misremembered. I haven't seen any instance of ressurection either.
 
Infinite Crisis did show that the four of them were all alone since the COIE. Gog didn't go to them.
 
I reread the comicbook, and I seem to have misremembered, yes. Nevertheless, the appearance of the Golden Age Superman in this story seems to contradict the later portrayal of his prison.
 
To my understanding, this hypertime version of Superman is different than the one from infinite crisis. There are other people shown in the hypertime dimension where the Infinite Crisis and COIE imply that the 4 are the only ones in the pocket reality.
 
Well, it was definitely supposed to be the original Superman, but the writer, Mark Waid, took some liberties with the nature of the prison.
 
Doesn't the definition of Hypertime (timelines branched from the main timeline) contradict the nature of the pocket reality created in COIE and expanded upon in Infinite Crisis?
 
Feats look good but I'd be more at ease if we got more experts to look at this. Has anyone contacted Matt, Sandman and Hykuu about this?
 
I think that it clearly seemed to be Mark Waid's version of the prison that the original Superman was stuck in, but it may have been retconned or ignored at this point.
 
Perhaps we should just discount any instance of Post Crisis Superman fighting on par against Kal-L as simply being PIS, same as we do with Superboy Prime.
 
Hasn't he fought him a few times tho? Personally I think Post Crisis should be on a similar level as Pre Crisis albeit weaker.
 
My apologies, but he regularly exerted himself or got damaged from enormously less, and has no feats of his own anywhere near that scale.
 
I agree with Ant. Post-Crisis Supes is a no. Golden Age Supes is okay IMHO, but like I said, a few more opinions from other experts wouldn't hurt.
 
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