Goku vs Mori REDUX • (14-8-0) • [Grace]

[CosmoDark38]

For some reason a boat load of ki abilities are treated as being exclusive to the people who performed them even though half of them are just them standing there and doing nothing (like gas negging granolah's fist with his aura) . Until that changes im not voting for anyone.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Anyway voting Goku fra based on cryo point

Cryos points completely ignore the huge speed and skill gap as well as mind hax and assumes every hax can be countered through power which is literally not accepted on the wiki.

Feels like people are voting "for his reasons" just to vote Goku without actually having to address any of the countless arguments against him.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Goku fra

 

[SeijiSetto]

Cryos points completely ignore the huge speed and skill gap as well as mind hax and assumes every hax can be countered through power which is literally not accepted on the wiki.

Feels like people are voting "for his reasons" just to vote Goku without actually having to address any of the countless arguments against him.

true!
mori can amp himself up to 250,000x in AP (irrelevant here) and speed (very relevant) thus allowing him to do basically whatever he wants to Goku without him being able to react

And absorption is also not really useful here when Goku is familiar with opponents using it, can vaporise with Ki and absorbing a 4D being with 3D power would be NLF unless Mori Jin has feats of absorbing characters as strong as Goku.

why would it be NLF.
it's not a power based thing so goku being 2-C is irrelevant, the clone with the ability just wraps his tendril thingy around whatever it wants and it's gone.
it's not something that can be resisted via power because it's hax, that's the entire point.

all the points in favour of Goku really aren't that strong.
he can't resist Mori's mind manip as is so he gets screwed OFF THE JUMP and mori can just amp, blitz, spawn a black hole on him and it's wraps.

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

I don't think Mori Jin's dura neg is going to work here due to Goku's feats against Granolah as well as things like Broly surviving 4D Ki explosions inside of his body from Gogeta (I know that isn't listed on the profile but seriously, I'm not going to just ignore that) and even the concept of Mori Jin's dura neg working on someone with 4D power when he's 3D is just silly. Goku resists Time Stop. Vibration hax seems meh given Goku produced universe destroying shockwaves as well as Goku's aura alone being capable of destroying Mori and probably disrupting his vibrations. And absorption is also not really useful here when Goku is familiar with opponents using it, can vaporise with Ki and absorbing a 4D being with 3D power would be NLF unless Mori Jin has feats of absorbing characters as strong as Goku. Same deal with LS, doesn't matter if Goku just lightly explodes his Ki.

That's just my take. Not gonna argue it further. I'm voting Goku FRA.

This part of Broly is at what moment exactly?

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

I think Goku has a better chance of beating Mori due to his greater ease in finishing the fight, he can use his aura to apply damage in various directions, change the "weak point" like he did in the Granorah saga or fortify the body with Ki. he could spam ki blasts in multiple directions like dragon ball characters usually do among other ways.

 

[Qawsedf234]

i disagree, however, we both agree mori has far more viable wincons and i don't think we're gonna convince each other so i think we'll just have to agree to disagree

For clarification regarding my point, the default assumption are that organs are just weaker than your muscles like IRL. However, unless proven otherwise, they're not treated as human-level either.

As an example, someone who's 2-C isn't treated as having a 10-B heart unless the work notes that he has functionally normal human organs. But it would be assumed that their heart or brain is going to be weaker than their muscles since that's how it works for basically every creature IRL. For like, a meme example If you punched a Gorilla in the chest it probably wouldn't feel anything, but if you directly punched its brain somehow the Gorilla is going to die. But we wouldn't assume that hitting the Gorilla's brain with the same kinetic energy of a fly is going to kill it either.

 

[MichaelCalistro]

i'm voting for Mori if it wasn't clear
i think his passive mind manip mogs, and even discounting that he's more skilled and has multiple haxes that can ignore the AP gap like absorption and black holes which he can do on a whim

no more grace lol

Doesn't super natural will power resist mind manipulation given how mori mind manipulation works I think it can be overcomed by it

Not to mention Vegeta literally resisted mind manipulation with pure willpower so saying Goku would be able to do same isn't a big reach

Anyway voting Goku fra based on cryo point

(10-7-0)​

 

[MichaelCalistro]

Goku fra

(11-7-0)​

 

[DavidTPPM]

I think Goku has a better chance of beating Mori due to his greater ease in finishing the fight, he can use his aura to apply damage in various directions, change the "weak point" like he did in the Granorah saga or fortify the body with Ki. he could spam ki blasts in multiple directions like dragon ball characters usually do among other ways.

That's great and all but how does that get past a 250,000x speed difference?

 

[M2u12]

Yeah, Goku has 2c durability but has 10B organs is so weird. I was about to tell David about this but someone else who can explain it better than me like SeijiSetto already told him so nevermind.

But I still stand my ground, I still vote for Mori, i want to know how goku will handle Mori other haxs.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Discussions lengthened it seems

If Goku has no counters to his passive mind manipulation shouldn't it be a stomp? I understand Vegeta has resisted it but whether it applies to Goku is flimsy

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

Para esclarecer meu ponto, a suposição padrão é que os órgãos são apenas mais fracos do que seus músculos, como na vida real. No entanto, a menos que se prove o contrário, eles também não são tratados como nível humano.

Por exemplo, alguém que é 2-C não é tratado como tendo um coração 10-B, a menos que o trabalho observe que ele tem órgãos humanos funcionalmente normais. Mas seria assumido que seu coração ou cérebro seria mais fraco do que seus músculos, já que é assim que funciona para basicamente todas as criaturas na vida real. Por exemplo, um exemplo de meme: se você socasse um gorila no peito, ele provavelmente não sentiria nada, mas se você socasse diretamente seu cérebro, de alguma forma o gorila morreria. Mas não assumiríamos que atingir o cérebro do gorila com a mesma energia cinética de uma mosca o mataria também.

this is a little strange Like, if a character is hit by a blow with infinite energy, like a punch for example, wouldn't that make their organs have infinite resistance too? Because, you receive a kinetic wave when you receive a hard blow to the head, for example, or to the back, and part of that kinetic wave goes to your organs, whether you like it or not.

 

[SeijiSetto]

If Goku has no counters to his passive mind manipulation shouldn't it be a stomp?

it would be a stomp yes because goku would just fold the instant the fight started

 

[DavidTPPM]

it would be a stomp yes because goku would just fold the instant the fight started

It's a stomp regardless. These high tier vs low tier fights are stomps 99% of the time

 

[Epiccheev]

Yeah, for now either the cup's cupholder gets passively mindhax stomped or Mori gets Aurafarmed

 

[BoastJr]

Yeah Goku gets blitzed the moment the fight starts even if we used Bejita's feat to fix his lack of Mind Hax resistance

It just seems to be headed in one direction rn regardless of arguments in goku's favor

 

[AwkguyDB]

Goku Fra

 

[M2u12]

It's crazy that this match is already 5 pages in less than 5 days compared to Goku vs Ryong which is still on page 2 , I beg you Goku supporters please give your opinion on Goku vs Ryong match so we will finally reach a conclusion

 

[CelestialVortex01]

Yeah I'm not seeing how Goku loses honestly, Goku FRA

 

[MichaelCalistro]

Goku Fra

(12-7-0)​

 

[MichaelCalistro]

Yeah I'm not seeing how Goku loses honestly, Goku FRA

(13-7-0)​

 

[TheTenno07]

I don't see any way for Jin's durability negation to be able to affect Goku's 4D durability, although I think that the mind manipulation hax can be dangerous, my vote goes to Goku

 

[MichaelCalistro]

I don't see any way for Jin's durability negation to be able to affect Goku's 4D durability, although I think that the mind manipulation hax can be dangerous, my vote goes to Goku

(14-7-0)​

 

[DavidTPPM]

I heard Goku fans are insanely bias but I never expected so many of them to just go "yeah Goku gets blitzed and one shotted in multiple different ways while also getting passively mind diddled, but I think he's got this, Goku FRA".

Like till this point the only argument against speed blitzing was equaling Moris speed to base Goku instead of MUI Goku

 

[BoastJr]

Snip

Silly David

You can never defeat Goku even if your character is Tier 1A with Nirvana scaling

Goku just never loses

 

[TheTenno07]

I heard Goku fans are insanely bias but I never expected so many of them to just go "yeah Goku gets blitzed and one shotted in multiple different ways while also getting passively mind diddled, but I think he's got this, Goku FRA".

Like till this point the only argument against speed blitzing was equaling Moris speed to base Goku instead of MUI Goku

Isn't Jin Mori's manipulation only supposed to work on those weaker than him? And you already answered the speed argument yourself, so what's the main complaint?

 

[M2u12]

Isn't Jin Mori's manipulation only supposed to work on those weaker than him?

No, it's mind hax. Why does Mind Manipulation have to take physical power into account?

 

[TheTenno07]

No, it's mind hax. Why does Mind Manipulation have to take physical power into account?

Don't ask me, ask the verse that jin comes from

 

[SeijiSetto]

Don't ask me, ask the verse that jin comes from

what does that even mean
what on the profile implies it's based on physical power
where are you getting that from
also yes speed is equal but Mori can amp his by up to 250,000x (which he would do upon sensing the sheer gap in stats between him and Goku)

 

[M2u12]

Don't ask me, ask the verse that jin comes from

I asked you, "Why does Mind Manipulation have to take physical power into account?"

I didn't ask "Do Mori Mind Manipulation takes physical power into account?"

Please understand the question before you answer.

 

[Mickey1940]

ngl voting Mori

if the speed amps aren't banned since Mori is naturally faster, and assuming the "kneel before me" hax actually does work on infinitely stronger people, then he just speedblitzes and mindhaxes instantly.

Goku doesn't aurafarm in character, against characters as weak as Mori (compared to him) he tends to just neck chop, which means Mori can just dodge

The main issue in this fight is that Mori doesn't have literally anything to put down Goku for good. Pressure points don't work cuz of the dura difference, attacking organs don't work for the same reasons. Even if Goku was just standing still doing nothing, Mori can't actually do anything.

But if Mori just mindhaxes Goku permanently, then he just wins by incap.

Mori can boost his speed so much that literally anything Goku does, besides destroying the entire universe, can't touch him. Kiais just get avoided by running away, ki blasts can get easily dodged, punches can be easily dodged, and Goku basically has nothing else. Not even the Mafuba can do anything if Mori just avoids it lmao.

So yeah, Mori just makes Goku kneel forever gg

 

[M2u12]

Pressure points don't work cuz of the dura difference,

i think Pressure points still affect Goku, Pressure points are not AP but an ability that presses on nerve or important points in the body, etc, to affect the body.

But yeah, Goku should have 4D ki to protect his entire body at all times, so it's not a wincon for Mori anymore.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

UI allows Goku to move independently of his mind so assuming his mind hax work. Which Goku’s willpower should already cover he’d still be fighting.

And the speed stuff doesn’t negate the literal infinite gap in power. What’s Mori’s plan if that happens smack Goku until his arms break? Or wait for him to blink and kill him?

 

[MichaelCalistro]

ngl voting Mori

if the speed amps aren't banned since Mori is naturally faster, and assuming the "kneel before me" hax actually does work on infinitely stronger people, then he just speedblitzes and mindhaxes instantly.

Goku doesn't aurafarm in character, against characters as weak as Mori (compared to him) he tends to just neck chop, which means Mori can just dodge

The main issue in this fight is that Mori doesn't have literally anything to put down Goku for good. Pressure points don't work cuz of the dura difference, attacking organs don't work for the same reasons. Even if Goku was just standing still doing nothing, Mori can't actually do anything.

But if Mori just mindhaxes Goku permanently, then he just wins by incap.

Mori can boost his speed so much that literally anything Goku does, besides destroying the entire universe, can't touch him. Kiais just get avoided by running away, ki blasts can get easily dodged, punches can be easily dodged, and Goku basically has nothing else. Not even the Mafuba can do anything if Mori just avoids it lmao.

So yeah, Mori just makes Goku kneel forever gg

(14-8-0)​

 

[M2u12]

UI allows Goku to move independently of his mind so assuming his mind hax work. Which Goku’s willpower should already cover he’d still be fighting.

That's an interesting point, but his UI doesn't last forever, so Mori can outlast Goku UI, +UI requires a calm mind to enable it so Mori mind hax can make Goku mind not calm so he can't use the UI.

What’s Mori’s plan if that happens smack Goku until his arms break? Or wait for him to blink and kill him?

Mori either uses hax on him, or lifts Cell Area into space to suffocate Goku.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Isn't Jin Mori's manipulation only supposed to work on those weaker than him?

No? This was denied in the thread like 20x now and nothing in the profile or the series even remotely implied so. Why does every Goku fan here keep saying this??

And you already answered the speed argument yourself, so what's the main complaint?

What? I said the only debunk was lying

 

[TheTenno07]

I asked you, "Why does Mind Manipulation have to take physical power into account?"

I didn't ask "Do Mori Mind Manipulation takes physical power into account?"

Please understand the question before you answer.

Well from what I've seen Jin's power of mental manipulation only works via being stronger than the opponent he is controlling and it is not a rule indexed to the general mind manip that we have here, that's why I said that check the verse and don't ask me.
Furthermore, Jin's mental manipulation would not have to work on a being literally infinitely superior to him.

 

[DavidTPPM]

UI allows Goku to move independently of his mind so assuming his mind hax work. Which Goku’s willpower should already cover he’d still be fighting.

Except Moris mind hax make you submit so Goku would willingly return to base and give up.

And the speed stuff doesn’t negate the literal infinite gap in power. What’s Mori’s plan if that happens smack Goku until his arms break? Or wait for him to blink and kill him?

Again this was addressed like 50x already. Mori has several dura neg hax to get past it.

 

[TheTenno07]

No? This was denied in the thread like 20x now and nothing in the profile or the series even remotely implied so. Why does every Goku fan here keep saying this??

What? I said the only debunk was lying

It was denied? Then again it going to be a problem, although again it would need to be demonstrated that it can affect infinitely superior beings