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Goku vs. Garou (Martial Arts Battle)

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Epiccheev said:
OPM fandom seems to like to shit on DB the most, considering it as what OPM would become if it went wrong.
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What are you talking about 💀
Epiccheev said:
So i get why it's hard to admit a mainstream character like Goku would beat a character like Garou who is notably high in the ranks of the wiki when it comes to top skilled martial artist.
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"Hard to admit." Bro I'm convinced that you're speaking out of your ass. Goku in no universe or continuity is more skilled than Garou and you have no feats to back it up.
 
Oh boy, 6 pages. This is wayy to subjective a topic for my liking and I'll likely miss loads of things but Goku wins this Low-Mid Difficulty imo.

Yes Garou can copy Goku but Goku has copied stuff too. Garou has an understanding of the flow of all energy in the universe but likely won't be able to mimic UI or just straight up combust, like Moro. Garou can neg his durability too with his Fa Jin but Goku's pressure points, automatic hardening with UI and the fact that he has no vital areas (no openings - stated by Granolah iirc) will make it hard for Garou to touch him. Not to mention the insane skill scaling chain we get all the way from DB until DBS. He didn't suddenly stop gaining skill. Goku also beats Hits Time Manipulation via pure analytical skill because Immeasurable speed is not accepted. Garou has never done anything close to this
 
Arnoldstone18 said:
honestly, there kinda is to a pretty great extent to objectively discern skill. But sure, if you want to play that card, fine by me.

Infact your logic only applies to those that are relatively close in skill. UI ***** on Garou to the point where you can’t play this card
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I was referring to wacky impossible skill feats that are difficult to quantify or characters that are relatively close, yes. Ikki for example is obviously more skilled than a drunken caveman, but how would you compare manipulating reality through sheer skill to performing advanced ki techniques if they’re both simply impossible by real world standards?
 
Quantu said:
Oh boy, 6 pages. This is wayy to subjective a topic for my liking and I'll likely miss loads of things but Goku wins this Low-Mid Difficulty imo.

Yes Garou can copy Goku but Goku has copied stuff too. Garou has an understanding of the flow of all energy in the universe but likely won't be able to mimic UI or just straight up combust, like Moro. Garou can neg his durability too with his Fa Jin but Goku's pressure points, automatic hardening with UI and the fact that he has no vital areas (no openings - stated by Granolah iirc) will make it hard for Garou to touch him. Not to mention the insane skill scaling chain we get all the way from DB until DBS. He didn't suddenly stop gaining skill. Goku also beats Hits Time Manipulation via pure analytical skill because Immeasurable speed is not accepted. Garou has never done anything close to this
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Honestly you’ve said every single thing. Watch them still disagree with some fallaciously argument
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
I was referring to wacky impossible skill feats that are difficult to quantify or characters that are relatively close, yes. Ikki for example is obviously more skilled than a drunken caveman, but how would you compare manipulating reality through sheer skill to performing advanced ki techniques if they’re both simply impossible by real world standards?
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Fair point.
If one beats the other in hand to hand combat stats equal. We know this lol
 
Yes Garou can copy Goku but Goku has copied stuff too.
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Garou's copying abilities are far superior. Explained this many times already.

Garou has an understanding of the flow of all energy in the universe but likely won't be able to mimic UI or just straight up combust, like Moro
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Why not? It is inferior to his own Instinctive Reactions.

Garou can neg his durability too with his Fa Jin but Goku's pressure points, automatic hardening with UI and the fact that he has no vital areas (no openings - stated by Granolah iirc) will make it hard for Garou to touch him
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Garou has pressure points as well, passive evolution, and no openings. He may also not even be an inorganic being. What's your point?

Not to mention the insane skill scaling chain we get all the way from DB until DBS. He didn't suddenly stop gaining skill
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Scaling chains aren't that noteworthy in the face of concrete feats and Garou has his own scaling chains as well.

Goku also beats Hits Time Manipulation via pure analytical skill.
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Garou beats speed blitz via pure analytical skill which is effectively the same thing.
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
I was referring to wacky impossible skill feats that are difficult to quantify or characters that are relatively close, yes. Ikki for example is obviously more skilled than a drunken caveman, but how would you compare manipulating reality through sheer skill to performing advanced ki techniques if they’re both simply impossible by real world standards?
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Stuff like analytical prediction/precog and experience can be pretty objectively quantified most of the time. Growth speed (technique) generally can too.
Skill copying is where it gets weird, specially if we are talking about impossible martial arts and stuff like Rimuru copying skill/magic.

Then we get to mastering said martial arts that often involve verse restricted mechanics, like hokuto no ken pressure points, DB Ki techniques that are harder than martial arts, but are so different from anything irl and in other verses there's 0 ways to compare, Martial arts that do completely impossible shit like Garou's shockwaves and somehow directly hitting atoms with your fists/sword.

Though what i said about martial arts apply to anything that completely surpasses logic in the verse. (Like predicting infinite probabilities), Cellular and beyond body control, absurdly enhanced senses, charaters with omniscience wich would include martial arts and everything their opponents would ever do,etc.
 
My visitation may have been short-lived but I'm gonna take a break from this thread (or just leave overall, you'll know if I come back). People making excuses for their clear bias against Goku, can't stand it.
 
Gumball_Ushiromiya said:
violence is not the answer, it's the question, the answer is yes.
So what's the current verdict so far?
Goku>garou or vice versa?
Or are both parties still unwilling to admit defeat?
Can't be bothered to read the whole thread
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General belief (I think) :

DBS Goku > Garou > Z Goku > DB Golu

Some people believe Garou shitstomps all Gokus or vice versa though
 
Phoenks said:
You have yet to bring up a single argument. Goodbye, I guess.
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You have yet to reply to this

Then prove it has evolved past Adult Goku and Master Roshi’s level of IR, besides UI and MUI.

Adult Goku feat before UI: BoG arc, Goku’s body subconsciously predicted that Beerus was going to attack and moved out of the way before Beerus could attack. Goku was confused as to why that happened, Beerus explained to Goku that it was due to his fighting prowess allowing him to react instinctively.

Master Roshi’s feat: performed an instinctive reaction feat greater than Battle of God Goku’s feat with Beerus. Someone Goku has far surpassed is capable of reacting to Jiren who Goku is struggling with. His Instinctive reaction was stated by Whis to be similar, yet a Far Cry from Ultra instinct’s capabilities.

Prove Garou has surpassed those two very impressive feats which are a way below baseline Ultra Instinct.

If you bullshit your way out of this one you still have to prove Garou covers the gap between those two feats and UI. Then prove Garou covers the gaps between Goku improving UI sign over time, then another gap where Goku masters UI, then you will have to keep bullshitting your way past his UI improvement thanks to Goku’s training with Merus in the Moro Arc, BS your way past the UI that decimated Moro, who copied UI and other fighters, Then you have Granola arc where Goku incorporates UI into his Base and improves it further with his transformations. (Granola became the strongest in the universe, He first attacks Goku and Vegeta with a weaker clone that is faster than them, attacks them, attacks them at full strength. Then Gas comes along and becomes the strongest in the universe to surpass Granola’s speed and strength to attack) an improved version of MUI Allowed Goku to keep up with Granola’s clone’s attacks (the clone is stronger and faster than both Goku and Vegeta), Goku improves, beats up the clone gets distracted and gets taken out by a sneak attack. Later on he wakes up and further improves to surpass the clone, and the real deal to match another character named Gas who is faster than Granola.


There is no way you can get Garou above Master Roshi and it’s not even possible to bullshit your way into these layers of UI.
Don’t disappoint me
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Phoenks said:
Feats & Applications > Scaling Chains
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Hey everyone, wait till he realizes scaling chains involve feats


IMG_2152.jpg
 
Adult Goku feat before UI: BoG arc, Goku’s body subconsciously predicted that Beerus was going to attack and moved out of the way before Beerus could attack. Goku was confused as to why that happened, Beerus explained to Goku that it was due to his fighting prowess allowing him to react instinctively.
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Master Roshi’s feat: performed an instinctive reaction feat greater than Battle of God Goku’s feat with Beerus. Someone Goku has far surpassed is capable of reacting to Jiren who Goku is struggling with. His Instinctive reaction was stated by Whis to be similar, yet a Far Cry from Ultra instinct’s capabilities.
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Human Garou had this with an incomplete Water Stream Rock Smashing Fist. And it's not just against a single attack, while using it his body is stated to move automatically/on its own without the need for him to think. And this is active throughout the entire duration of his fights.

But if you are looking for things that arent while utilizing techniques. Human Garou (Using Human Garou only to prove that you are downplaying Garou a lot), was able to evade a technique he wasn't aware of at all instinctively, after being poisoned, drained of stamina, and beaten badly.
 
Phoenks said:
Garou's copying abilities are far superior. Explained this many times already.
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Thanks to God, not skill
Phoenks said:
Why not? It is inferior to his own Instinctive Reactions.
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Proof? Goku's Instinctive reactions are akin to a multiplier of speed given it allowed Goku to keep pace with Vegeta as a Super Saiyan whilst the former was still in base. What do you have besides Garou getting washed by Darkshine whilst asleep?
Phoenks said:
Garou has pressure points as well
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Which UI makes irrelevant, even in the event that he was relative in IR since Goku will shift them out of harm's way. Saiyan anatomy is also not known to Garou.
Phoenks said:
, passive evolution,
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Until he hits a ceiling and gets bopped and receives another powerup from God
Phoenks said:
and no openings. He may also not even be an inorganic being. What's your point?
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He's been hit too much to have zero any openings
Phoenks said:
Garou beats speed blitz via pure analytical skill which is effectively the same thing.
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Show Saitama speed blitzing him
 
Phoenks said:
Human Garou had this with an incomplete Water Stream Rock Smashing Fist. And it's not just against a single attack, while using it his body is stated to move automatically/on its own without the need for him to think. And this is active throughout the entire duration of his fights.

But if you are looking for things that arent while utilizing techniques. Human Garou (Using Human Garou only to prove that you are downplaying Garou a lot), was able to evade a technique he wasn't aware of at all instinctively, after being poisoned, drained of stamina, and beaten badly.
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Finally… you responded. But I won’t comment wether I disagree or agree because you still have hurdles to climb.

Now these feat you scale to Roshi is a far cry from UI according to Whis.

How does Garou get over this hurdle without NLF?
 
Thanks to God, not skill
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Even disregarding God Garou was able to copy and master complex martial arts techniques in his sleep. And has many "with a glance" feats as well.

Proof? Goku's Instinctive reactions are akin to a multiplier of speed given it allowed Goku to keep pace with Vegeta as a Super Saiyan whilst the former was still in base. What do you have besides Garou getting washed by Darkshine whilst asleep?
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I explained this many times. Scroll up.

Which UI makes irrelevant, even in the event that he was relative in IR since Goku will shift them out of harm's way. Saiyan anatomy is also not known to Garou.
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Doesn't matter because his information analysis will make it known to him. He analyzes a lot more than Goku does when he fights.

Until he hits a ceiling and gets bopped and receives another powerup from God
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He has never shown to hit a ceiling.

He's been hit too much to have zero any openings
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Only because of blitz-worthy speed.
 
Skill chains do matter, when both characters have relative skill feats then they can be used to ascertain levels of superiority. It's not like I'm using a skill chain of Larry the Lobster.

I don't care if Garou could be inorganic, as it stands he is not. Also, "Garou beats speed blitz via pure analytical skill which is effectively the same thing."

No? Garou could be beating a MFTL+ character via analytical skill and it still doesn't come close to Goku. He's still analyzing a finite period of time. Goku on the other hand, if I remember right, is analyzing at LEAST 0.5 seconds into the future (likely greater, as Hit probably improved since the U6 arc -> to Goku stating timeskip wouldn't work on him anymore post Zamasu). This is literally not close.

Anyways I'm unfollowing. Arguing against my favourite OPM character feels weird
 
Skill chains do matter, when both characters have relative skill feats then they can be used to ascertain levels of superiority. It's not like I'm using a skill chain of Larry the Lobster.
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Never said they didn't matter. I said that feats and applicability of skill are superior to scaling chains of skill.

Garou beats speed blitz via pure analytical skill which is effectively the same thing." No?
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Except he did. Saitama attacks at speeds that he can't even see and he's able to dodge and predict them.
 
Phoenks said:
Even disregarding God Garou was able to copy and master complex martial arts techniques in his sleep. And has many "with a glance" feats as well.
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Such as?
Phoenks said:
I explained this many times. Scroll up.
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No.
Phoenks said:
Doesn't matter because his information analysis will make it known to him. He analyzes a lot more than Goku does when he fights.
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I think he's going to be a little too preoccupied getting stomped to do that? Goku has a twofold defense here, better reflexes in addition to the vital point shifting
Phoenks said:
He has never shown to hit a ceiling.
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Pretty sure that happened when he was completely out of ideas on what to do against Saitama then got clocked into the horizon to get his latest boost
Phoenks said:
Only because of blitz-worthy speed.
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Show Saitama blitzing him. You argue the feat is impressive because Saitama is magnitudes faster, yes? Even though Goku has the same feat but better with a time manipulator 😂
 
Quantu said:
Anyways I'm unfollowing. Arguing against my favourite OPM character feels weird
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Tbh this, Garou is easily the most interesting OPM character to use in vsbattles due to his skill(even if my favorite is flashy flash due to his cool dorkyness).
I mostly came to this thread with an open mind because i like skill debates and wanted to learn more about Goku. It's been very productive for me. (even if i'd much prefer Garou to win)
 
By the way I just noticed something . . .

Goku's Mastered Ultra Instinct gets less accurate as time goes on.

Doesn't this give him an obvious disadvantage here? Not to mention, doesn't this infer that his instincts are basically completely dependent on the amp? Meanwhile, Garou's is just a natural ability he's gained without needing any special power boost.
 
Phoenks said:
By the way I just noticed something . . .

Goku's Mastered Ultra Instinct gets less accurate as time goes on.

Doesn't this give him an obvious disadvantage here? Not to mention, doesn't this infer that his instincts are basically completely dependent on the amp? Meanwhile, Garou's is just a natural ability he's gained without needing any special power boost.
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Only someone above Goku in stats could even exploit that. Once again, you comparing their IR is false equivalence to begin with. UI is better than Garou's,
 
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