Gods of Future Manipulators: Yhwach vs Nafta

[Yohata]

Shouldn't you close this
And ask someone to add the result to nafta notable victories
I noticed that mgk characters dont have any notable victories although they stomp all non-smurfs

 

[Orioreeem]

Stomps don't get added

 

[Orioreeem]

Should probably stay opened until that upgrade for Yhwach happens so that maybe we can have a fair match

 

[ImmortalDread]

Should probably stay opened until that upgrade for Yhwach happens so that maybe we can have a fair match

@Deceived

She has AE based on a type 1 concept. Does Yhwach interact with her? (even after the upgrades?)

 

[Yohata]

Stomps don't get added

For real
Anos will never get a notbale victories in his profile

 

[Purgy]

Yhwach will never be able to interact with AE because there's simply just no feats or statement in the manga or novels even remotely indicating he can, so whatever upgrades Deceived may have planned won't make this not a stomp

 

[ImmortalDread]

Yhwach will never be able to interact with AE because there's simply just no feats or statement in the manga or novels even remotely indicating he can, so whatever upgrades Deceived may have planned won't make this not a stomp

Thanks. Seems Nafta is better future manipulator

 

[Purgy]

Thanks. Seems Nafta is better future manipulator

Not really?

Yhwach can actually rewrite futures, from what I was told above, Nafta can only choose between them

Yhwach = choose and change
Nafta = choose

Yhwach loses because of things unrelated to the future manip

 

[ImmortalDread]

Not really?

Yhwach can actually rewrite futures, from what I was told above, Nafta can only choose between them

Yhwach = choose and change
Nafta = choose

Yhwach loses because of things unrelated to the future manip

Change…? He can alter it, I assume.

 

[Yohata]

Not really?

Yhwach can actually rewrite futures, from what I was told above, Nafta can only choose between them

Yhwach = choose and change
Nafta = choose

Yhwach loses because of things unrelated to the future manip

There is no difference
As there is infinite futures with infinite possibilities
They can choose that result directly instead of changing one to make it like that
And yhwach change it with probability manip if im not wrong
Nafta have probability manip too

 

[Purgy]

There is no difference
As there is infinite futures with infinite possibilities
They can choose that result directly instead of changing one to make it like that
And yhwach change it with probability manip if im not wrong
Nafta have probability manip too

There is a difference in mechanics and application, Yhwach can alter futures and choose between existing ones, Nafta can only do the latter, although the results are the same one is clearly superior

No Yhwach doesn't change it with probability manip, no idea where you got that from

 

[ImmortalDread]

There is a difference in mechanics and application, Yhwach can alter futures and choose between existing ones, Nafta can only do the latter, although the results are the same one is clearly superior

No Yhwach doesn't change it with probability manip, no idea where you got that from

Ya, but he does not change the future either. He explicitly alters it.

 

[Yohata]

After reading his page again
He just change it by choosing another one
This is exactly what nafta do
Choose one of those futures and make it the one that happen instead of your future

 

[Purgy]

After reading his page again
He just change it by choosing another one
This is exactly what nafta do
Choose one of those futures and make it the one that happen instead of your future

That's blatantly not the case as he rewrote the future so that he didn't die after he died

And of course, he broke every Bankai in the future, literally changing those futures

He can choose between pre-existing futures and also modify them

 

[Yohata]

That's blatantly not the case as he rewrote the future so that he didn't die after he died

And of course, he broke every Bankai in the future, literally changing those futures

He can choose between pre-existing futures and also modify them

Rewrote the future of his death by changing his future with the future where he didn't die
This just choosing another future to happen

Idk about the bankai ones
I need to read the manga again to confirm it
I kinda remember him saying that he choose the future where the bankai is broken ( remember there is infinite possibilities so this is possible too )

 

[ImmortalDread]

He explained there is a drain of sands (which presents “infinite” possibilities”) and he picked one of them and alter reality with it.

That's blatantly not the case as he rewrote the future so that he didn't die after he died

And of course, he broke every Bankai in the future, literally changing those futures

He can choose between pre-existing futures and also modify them

This is called fate manipulation. He alters the future by choosing the existing future/possibility (which is physical; the reason he got the 2-A range with it).
But he never really modifies the future. I am sure he picks the existing possibility and replaces it. Also, why modify them if they are already infinite? Is that not anti-feat to his 2-A range right now?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Again, why modify the future if there are infinite existing possibilities?

 

[Purgy]

Rewrote the future of his death by changing his future with the future where he didn't die
This just choosing another future to happen

Idk about the bankai ones
I need to read the manga again to confirm it
I kinda remember him saying that he choose the future where the bankai is broken ( remember there is infinite possibilities so this is possible too )

Or he rewrote the future by making it so that he just didn't die in that future...? This is the problem with this argument, distinguishing between changing from one of an infinite futures and altering one are impossible, as technically every event has and not happened so he could just pick from them instead of changing it.

No he never said he chose a future where Bankai was broken, he very clearly says he broke it in the future, he's not choosing a future where Bankai are already broken, he's actively altering the future so that they're already broken.

Though this doesn't matter, it's not changing that this match is a stomp.

 

[azontr]

Or he rewrote the future by making it so that he just didn't die in that future...? This is the problem with this argument, distinguishing between changing from one of an infinite futures and altering one are impossible, as technically every event has and not happened so he could just pick from them instead of changing it.

No he never said he chose a future where Bankai was broken, he very clearly says he broke it in the future, he's not choosing a future where Bankai are already broken, he's actively altering the future so that they're already broken.

Though this doesn't matter, it's not changing that this match is a stomp.

Yhwach's nose in this scan is rigid af

 

[ImmortalDread]

Or he rewrote the future by making it so that he just didn't die in that future...? This is the problem with this argument, distinguishing between changing from one of an infinite futures and altering one are impossible, as technically every event has and not happened so he could just pick from them instead of changing it.

No he never said he chose a future where Bankai was broken, he very clearly says he broke it in the future, he's not choosing a future where Bankai are already broken, he's actively altering the future so that they're already broken.

Though this doesn't matter, it's not changing that this match is a stomp.

Makes sense but again, I wanna know if I am not understanding wrong if there is infinite pre-existing possibilities, why he is needed to modify the future by himself? Is he capable to modify ones that did not exist..?

 

[Purgy]

Makes sense but again, I wanna know if I am not understanding wrong if there is infinite pre-existing possibilities, why he is needed to modify the future by himself? Is he capable to modify ones that did not exist..?

Oversight by Kubo maybe? idk

There's quite a bit of evidence for there being infinite futures in Bleach though, and Yhwach is stated to be able to manipulate all of them

 

[ImmortalDread]

Oversight by Kubo maybe? idk

There's quite a bit of evidence for there being infinite futures in Bleach though, and Yhwach is stated to be able to manipulate all of them

Again, I am not disagreeing with it. But like, this is just evidence that he can modify an impossible event, tho?
I am sure he just chooses the future from infinite futures, avoiding his death. Unless, the argument is, that he is even able to modify an impossible future which is impressive…

 

[Purgy]

Again, I am not disagreeing with it. But like, this is just evidence that he can modify an impossible event, tho?
I am sure he just chooses the future from infinite futures, avoiding his death. Unless, the argument is, that he is even able to modify an impossible future which is impressive…

I'm not really sure what you mean tbh

 

[ImmortalDread]

I'm not sure what you mean tbh

Alright, I will rephrase it, tho.
Why does he need to change a future if there are already an infinite number of futures already existing?

Unless he simply chooses one of these infinite pre-existing futures to avoid his death?

 

[Hellscream]

idk why people think that yhwach just picks a different future when it's stated multiple times that he can alter / rewrite the future itself
also stated that he can change the entirety of fate as he wills.

 

[ImmortalDread]

idk why people think that yhwach just picks a different future when it's stated multiple times that he can alter / rewrite the future itself
also stated that he can change the entirety of fate as he wills.

The thing is that he explicitly explained the way he does it. (if you remember the example of the drain of sands and how he all need is to choose one of the grain of sands/paths and replace it)

And why does he need to modify a future if he can pick one of infinite pre-existing futures/possibilities and alter it on reality?

Unless you are saying he was altering a future where it does not exist. I am trying to understand @Purgy. Not really debating, I just simply do not remember that.

 

[Hellscream]

He doesn't say that he chooses them tho?
He says that all ichigo is doing by changing the future is going from one drop of sand to the other, and that yhwach has full control over every possibility / future while watching from high above

 

[ImmortalDread]

He doesn't say that he chooses them tho?
He says that all ichigo is doing by changing the future is going from one drop of sand to the other, and that yhwach has full control over every possibility while watching from high above

Yap, agreed, and those possibilities are infinite and pre-existing (physically as well). He got full control over it.
Going from one drop of sand to another is literally choosing one from others.

Again, we were talking about the bankai case where he modified a none-existent future. And I am asking if it is true.

 

[Hellscream]

He destroyed every bankai at the same time when he destroyed ichigo's bankai

 

[Yohata]

Yap, agreed, and those possibilities are infinite and pre-existing (physically as well). He got full control over it.
Going from one drop of sand to another is literally choosing one from others.

Again, we were talking about the bankai case where he modified a none-existent future. And I am asking if it is true.

Since there is infinite possibilities
This mean there is a possibility where the bankai is destroyed
Im kinda sure he just choose one of them
Especially since he explain his ability after the chapter of the scan that he shared with us
Or it might be really modifying future i don't remember

 

[ImmortalDread]

Since there is infinite possibilities
This mean there is a possibility where the bankai is destroyed
Im kinda sure he just choose one of them
Especially since he explain his ability after the chapter of the scan that he shared with us

Ya, this is what I am thinking, lol.

 

[Purgy]

Alright, I will rephrase it, tho.
Why does he need to change a future if there are already an infinite number of futures already existing?

Unless he simply chooses one of these infinite pre-existing futures to avoid his death?

There isn't really any need, as you said, if there are an infinite amount of futures, Yhwach shouldn't ever need to alter the specifics of a future when he can just switch to one that suits what he wants, but it's blatantly clear from his feats and from the fact that he states he broke Ichigo's Bankai in the future that he can alter the events of a future without having to change to a different one, so as I said, it's probably just an oversight/inconsistency from Kubo

I guess you could consider it an antifeat to the infinite futures thing if you want to

 

[ImmortalDread]

There isn't really any need, as you said, if there are an infinite amount of futures, Yhwach shouldn't ever need to alter the specifics of a future when he can just switch to one that suits what he wants, but it's blatantly clear from his feats and from the fact that he states he broke Ichigo's Bankai in the future that he can alter the events of a future without having to change to a different one, so as I said, it's probably just an oversight/inconsistency from Kubo

I guess you could consider it an antifeat to the infinite futures thing if you want to

Ya, this is what I am stating, it is somehow an antifeat to me lol.

 

[Yohata]

The way i see it
A future where yhwach destroyed the bankai exist
And he choosed this future
This how i understand the statement ( broke bankai in the future especially since in the later chapters he explain that he choose from one of the futures With his ability)

 

[Hellscream]

How is it an antifeat, having infinite futures doesn't really mean that there's always a possibility that something doesn't happen tho??

it's never stated, not even once that yhwach chooses from on of the futures, every single statement is about him rewriting / altering it.
idk where you guys are getting this information from

yhwach's statement: "i can even rewrite futures in which i have already died"
: "My power is the power to alter the future itself"

 

[Purgy]

The way i see it
A future where yhwach destroyed the bankai exist
And he choosed this future
This how i understand the statement ( broke bankai in the future especially since in the later chapters he explain that he choose from one of the futures )

You literally cannot interpret it like this

"So I broke it in the future"

"I can even rewrite the future in which I die"

These two statements are blatantly him changing the events of a future and not just switching to a different one

 

[Yohata]

You literally cannot interpret it like this

"So I broke it in the future"

"I can even rewrite the future in which I die"

These two statements are blatantly him changing the events of a future and not just switching to a different one

The rewrite one can obviously be changing
Broke in the future is kinda hard to tell

But like i said the meaning can be that there were a future where he broke the bankai and choosed that future
In this case the word broke in future can apply

 

[ImmortalDread]

How is it an antifeat, having infinite futures doesn't really mean that there's always a possibility that something doesn't happen tho??

it's never stated, not even once that yhwach chooses from on of the futures, every single statement is about him rewriting / altering it.
idk where you guys are getting this information from

yhwach's statement: "i can even rewrite futures in which i have already died"
: "My power is the power to alter the future itself"

Why would he need to re-write a future that already exists if it can be chosen and replaced in the present? Unless it does not exist, which means there is no infinite pre-existing future?
You are aware that “infinite pre-existing future” also means there is a pre-existing future where he avoided his death.
And there are also infinite possibilities.

 

[Purgy]

How is it an antifeat, having infinite futures doesn't really mean that there's always a possibility that something doesn't happen tho??

it's never stated, not even once that yhwach chooses from on of the futures, every single statement is about him rewriting / altering it.
idk where you guys are getting this information from

yhwach's statement: "i can even rewrite futures in which i have already died"
: "My power is the power to alter the future itself"

Yhwach states that Ichigo jumps from future to future, and then later Yhwach states he can do the same but to every future

It's pretty clear that he can both change between futures and alter things within them

 

[Yohata]

Yhwach states that Ichigo jumps from future to future, and then later Yhwach states he can do the same but to every future

It's pretty clear that he can both change between futures and alter things within them

Alter things with the other futures
Thats how i understand it
If there is a bleach crt that explain it in another way
You can give me the link
Idk why were even arguing this battle already ended