God of War: Ascended Athena Upgrade

[Larssx]

Her level of existence.

I do not reject that her existence is 5D but that does not make her Low 1-c.

 

[Larssx]

I don't have a problem with power if quoted by Geor made above is correct.

 

[KLOL506]

I do not reject that her existence is 5D but that does not make her Low 1-c.

Brother, the power part is handled in the first clip, the existence part is elaborated upon in the second.

She has both going for her.

 

[Gasper]

I do not reject that her existence is 5D but that does not make her Low 1-c.

It just simply does. Her AP scales.

 

[KLOL506]

I don't have a problem with power if quoted by Geor made above is correct.

That's exactly how Cory worded it. Georr is indeed correct.

 

[Georredannea15]

Are you talking about her existence or her power?
I still don't think they contain a qualitative transcendence for power
As for her existence, it's definitely 5D, but that's it.

She's power already comes from the higher dimensional plane from which she evolved. Cory explains this in detail.

 

[Planck69]

That's it though? Just existing above 4-D and you get 5-D, that seems oddly lax, I don't remember 5-D as defined by the wiki being that easy to get.

There are other ways to get it besides R>F, having multiple temporal axes, having space-time being an extremely small part of a larger one, brane cosmological, but this...

Again no expert, but still.

It's qualitative superiority in the sense that no matter the extent of the physical world, she's above them in plane and just ascending to that level granted her power beyond everyone else. This including countless (if the fact that even nominally famous legends and stories are worlds unto themselves) 4-dimensional beings, realms, magical energies etc. Even the Yggdrasil, which transcends space and time in the sense of being independent of either such aspects is beneath this plane and thus. her.

Not to mention how her power can't really be sensed or measured by Kratos anymore despite the latter being able to do so to any such being before, even with Athena pointing out her Olympian appearance belies her new level of being.

I won't push if even this isn't enough but thought I'd explain it in depth.

 

[Larssx]

That's exactly how Cory worded it. Georr is indeed correct.

Eh then seems sense

 

[Georredannea15]

It's qualitative superiority in the sense that no matter the extent of the physical world, she's above them in plane and just ascending to that level granted her power beyond everyone else. This including countless (if the fact that even nominally famous legends and stories are worlds unto themselves) 4-dimensional beings, realms, magical energies etc. Not to mention how her power can't really be sensed or measured by Kratos despite the latter being able to do so to any such being before, even with Athena pointing out her Olympian appearance belies her new level of being.

I won't push if even this isn't enough but thought I'd explain it in depth.

In addition, Athena said that her appearance is deceiving.

 

[Planck69]

In addition, Athena said that her appearance is deceiving.

That's what I meant with the last addition.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Being above 4-D doesn't necessarily make you 5-D as defined by the wiki, I still feel like it's not enough, like something is missing.

But you can take my words with a grain of salt if someone like @Elizhaa says its enough.

Maybe Low 1-C is easier to get than i thought.

 

[ImmortalDread]

To make my disagreement clear (before being misunderstood), I would like to express my stance.

The main evidence supporting the premise is the character's ascension to a higher level of existence, resulting in a different form. Personally, I interpret this as Higher Dimensional Existence.

Additionally, I have reservations about considering the author's interpretations as definitive, especially when this additional information was not presented in the original lore. This is why I refer to the interview rather than the official lore.

Furthermore, the term “power” is ambiguous and can encompass various meanings. In this context, it does not specifically refer to attack potency.

The author himself mentioned that gods are often portrayed as metaphors or stories to represent "absolute control." This is why I believe it is the interpretation that requires fewer assumptions when considering his opinion on this particular scene.

Based on the evidence I have seen, there is no apparent qualitative superiority established in the given context.

In addition, regarding the comment from Planck...

It's qualitative superiority in the sense that no matter the extent of the physical world, she's above them in plane and just ascending to that level granted her power beyond everyone else. This including countless (if the fact that even nominally famous legends and stories are worlds unto themselves) 4-dimensional beings, realms, magical energies etc. Not to mention how her power can't really be sensed or measured by Kratos despite the latter being able to do so to any such being before, even with Athena pointing out her Olympian appearance belies her new level of being.

The inability to detect her power could be considered a favorable aspect of her HDE nature, whether it stems from incorporeality or some form of deception, as she subtly hinted later on.

Most statements of superiority wouldn't suffice to reach qualitative superiority, even if applied to already being infinitely stronger than the baselines for the level.

Being above 4-D doesn't necessarily make you 5-D as defined by the wiki, I still feel like it's not enough, like something is missing.

Maybe Low 1-C is easier to get than i thought.

It is not enough. Specially from those statements.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

I think this rather grants HDE. I disagree

cory said that kratos is physically equivalent to athena, so your reason for rejecting him is not correct.

 

[KLOL506]

cory said that kratos is physically equivalent to athena, so your reason for rejecting him is not correct.

Which Kratos is he talking about and where? Also how is this relevant to Athena's own nature?

 

[RaveeCPN]

The main evidence supporting the premise is the character's ascension to a higher level of existence, resulting in a different form. Personally, I interpret this as Higher Dimensional Existence.

Athena becomes more higher-dimensional than anything else in the Greek world, including the Primordials who are 4D.

Furthermore, the term “power” is ambiguous and can encompass various meanings. In this context, it does not specifically refer to attack potency.

You need to know the context of the series to understand this. Everything Cory says in the interview indicates that Athena has a higher dimensional power than anyone else in every sense.

This is going to be painful to explain to someone who hasn't played GoW 3 sigh

As a note, Athena is not only higher dimensional from the Greek World, but also from the Ygdrassil and Norse World.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Which Kratos is he talking about and where? Also how is this relevant to Athena's own nature?

Cory said this about PoH in his interview and they already used this argument in a crt

 

[KLOL506]

To make my disagreement clear (before being misunderstood), I would like to express my stance.

The main evidence supporting the premise is the character's ascension to a higher level of existence, resulting in a different form. Personally, I interpret this as Higher Dimensional Existence.

It goes a bit beyond that as mentioned in the first clip of Cory. This higher level of existence grants her higher power and it messes her up.

Additionally, I have reservations about considering the author's interpretations as definitive, especially when this additional information was not presented in the original lore. This is why I refer to the interview rather than the official lore.

What do you mean "not presented in the original lore"? Athena deadass states this: "My sacrifice to save Zeus has brought me to a higher existence".

Cory literally just elaborates further on something already established (Which was a little vague at first) and gives it more detail. It does not contradict anything in the series.

Furthermore, the term “power” is ambiguous and can encompass various meanings. In this context, it does not specifically refer to attack potency.

Not in this case, "power" here means not just AP, but all your other capabilities as well. This has been hammered down as a core facet of GoW and its powers for quite a long time.

The author himself mentioned that gods are often portrayed as metaphors or stories to represent "absolute control." This is why I believe it is the interpretation that requires fewer assumptions when considering his opinion on this particular scene.

Yes, but that doesn't imply it's limited to just representing "absolute control"

Based on the evidence I have seen, there is no apparent qualitative superiority established in the given context.

Noted.

The inability to detect her power could be considered a favorable aspect of her HDE nature, whether it stems from incorporeality or some form of deception, as she subtly hinted later on.

Most statements of superiority wouldn't suffice to reach qualitative superiority, even if applied to already being infinitely stronger than the baselines for the level.

It is not enough. Specially from those statements.

Noted.

 

[KLOL506]

Cory said this about PoH in his interview and they already used this argument in a crt

Link? Because in the OP I can see that there's only those two links of Cory elaborating about Athena and Athena alone, even in the old CRT where we got HDE for Athena.

Either way, it shouldn't matter, not relevant to the thread at hand.

 

[Planck69]

Being above 4-D doesn't necessarily make you 5-D as defined by the wiki, I still feel like it's not enough, like something is missing.

But you can take my words with a grain of salt if someone like @Elizhaa says its enough.

Maybe Low 1-C is easier to get than i thought.

I mean, it's not just a vague "above the world" but rather her power and plane are also above and beyond space-time itself as well as the beings beyond even that.

Additionally, I have reservations about considering the author's interpretations as definitive, especially when this additional information was not presented in the original lore. This is why I refer to the interview rather than the official lore.

This is just an unnecessary point. Cory Barlog is elaborating on something that's left vague and mysterious in the games themselves. It's neither in reference to a leading question, a completely new addendum (Athena verbatim says she ascended to a higher plane of existence in the game itself), all Cory Barlog did was elaborate that her power grew as well), nor does it contradict the series.

Furthermore, the term “power” is ambiguous and can encompass various meanings. In this context, it does not specifically refer to attack potency.

The author himself mentioned that gods are often portrayed as metaphors or stories to represent "absolute control." This is why I believe it is the interpretation that requires fewer assumptions when considering his opinion on this particular scene.

.....It's just power that went to her head. In the same sense that the power the gods have goes to their heads. Power that has nothing to do with authority in this context seeing as that's not what Athena gains over anything upon entering that plane.

Based on the evidence I have seen, there is no apparent qualitative superiority established in the given context.

I mean, fair. I just had to address the above reasons for posterity.

The inability to detect her power could be considered a favorable aspect of her HDE nature, whether it stems from incorporeality or some form of deception, as she subtly hinted later on.

The fact that dimensionality has no bearing on power sensing aside, she just says that judging her by appearance is wrong. Deception on her power isn't ever confirmed as far as I'm aware.

 

[Georredannea15]

To make my disagreement clear (before being misunderstood), I would like to express my stance.

The main evidence supporting the premise is the character's ascension to a higher level of existence, resulting in a different form. Personally, I interpret this as Higher Dimensional Existence.

Additionally, I have reservations about considering the author's interpretations as definitive, especially when this additional information was not presented in the original lore. This is why I refer to the interview rather than the official lore.

Furthermore, the term “power” is ambiguous and can encompass various meanings. In this context, it does not specifically refer to attack potency.

The author himself mentioned that gods are often portrayed as metaphors or stories to represent "absolute control." This is why I believe it is the interpretation that requires fewer assumptions when considering his opinion on this particular scene.

Based on the evidence I have seen, there is no apparent qualitative superiority established in the given context.

In addition, regarding the comment from Planck...

The inability to detect her power could be considered a favorable aspect of her HDE nature, whether it stems from incorporeality or some form of deception, as she subtly hinted later on.

Most statements of superiority wouldn't suffice to reach qualitative superiority, even if applied to already being infinitely stronger than the baselines for the level.

It is not enough. Specially from those statements.

"Power can be interpreted differently" No. It cannot be interpreted differently here. The Cory Barlog in question says he has power equivalent to the plane from which Athena ascended. This cannot be interpreted any other way, if there is a 5-D force involved.

 

[Georredannea15]

Athena becomes more higher-dimensional than anything else in the Greek world, including the Primordials who are 4D.

You need to know the context of the series to understand this. Everything Cory says in the interview indicates that Athena has a higher dimensional power than anyone else in every sense.

This is going to be painful to explain to someone who hasn't played GoW 3 sigh

As a note, Athena is not only higher dimensional from the Greek World, but also from the Ygdrassil and Norse World.

That's why I asked those who don't know the verse not to comment too much.

 

[Larssx]

Furthermore, the term “power” is ambiguous and can encompass various meanings. In this context, it does not specifically refer to attack potency.

Well, that's conceivable.
Here power can only be in haxs so like Athena only gain 5D HDE and haxs.

 

[Quintessence_PE]

Link? Because in the OP I can see that there's only those two links of Cory elaborating about Athena and Athena alone, even in the old CRT where we got HDE for Athena.

Either way, it shouldn't matter, not relevant to the thread at hand.

dude cory's interview is already on crt if you watch the video you can see it. dread said hde, and in response I said that even if that was the case, kratos should be low1c because it would physically scale to his hde.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, that's conceivable.
Here power can only be in haxs so like Athena only gain 5D HDE and haxs.

Planck, I and Georr already elaborated why this isn't the case.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Athena becomes more higher-dimensional than anything else in the Greek world, including the Primordials who are 4D.

Which once again, has nothing to do with attack potency. It is false equivalence.

You need to know the context of the series to understand this. Everything Cory says in the interview indicates that Athena has a higher dimensional power than anyone else in every sense.

The context is clear, it is not my problem if OP lacked to add more evidences.
No, and he did not indicate that.

As a note, Athena is not only higher dimensional from the Greek World, but also from the Ygdrassil and Norse Worlds.

This is the definition of HDE, yap.

What do you mean "not presented in the original lore"? Athena deadass states this: "My sacrifice to save Zeus has brought me to a higher existence".

There are two videos, one is “lore” or original lore, and one is the author interpreting the lore. “the power” one is from the latter.

Cory literally just elaborates further on something already established and gives it more detail. It does not contradict.

It is not about contradiction, KLOL. We also don't take those as canon or valid in our scaling if they are additional information.

Not in this case, "power" here means not just AP, but all your other capabilities as well. This has been hammered down as a core facet of GoW and its powers for quite a long time.

Unless there are more instances, more evidences, more context that Planck forget to add with it's their respective evidence, I think the power here refers to absolute control.

Yes, but that doesn't imply it's limited to just representing "absolute control"

Correct, it is not limited, but the sense of his interpretation gave me this impression.

 

[Planck69]

That's why I asked those who don't know the verse not to comment too much.

Not being a supporter doesn't bar you from debating here, else most staff wouldn't be able to vote as well. She offered her reasoning, even if I disagree with it. Let's respect that.

 

[ImmortalDread]

@Planck69 @KLOL506 if you don't mind, but I am not obligated to respond to Georr's comment if those are not cooperating

That's why I asked those who don't know the verse not to comment too much.

 

[Gasper]

It is not about contradiction, KLOL. We also don't take those as canon or valid in our scaling if they are additional information.

What are you talking about?
We literally do.

 

[Planck69]

@Planck69 @KLOL506 if you don't mind, but I am not obligated to respond to Georr's comment if those are not cooperating

I mean, sure.

 

[RaveeCPN]

This is the definition of HDE, yap.

I don't know if we're failing to explain, but Athena's power comes from the realm she ascended to. And if you take the realm she ascended to as 5D, you have to take the high power she gained there as 5D.

I will quote what I wrote earlier;

If you accept the realm she ascended as 5D, you have to accept the power she has there as 5D too. She is already getting that power from the realm she ascended.

What differentiates Athena's HDE statements from other HDEs is that she "gains a higher power" from where she ascended. And if you take the higher realm she ascended to as 5D, then the "higher power" there should also be 5D, which is what Cory says in the interviews.

 

[Planck69]

It is not about contradiction, KLOL. We also don't take those as canon or valid in our scaling if they are additional information.

We absolutely do use Word of God, if it fits all the standards, which this does.

 

[KLOL506]

It is not about contradiction, KLOL. We also don't take those as canon or valid in our scaling if they are additional information.

LMFAO what, we absolutely do, read the Editing Rules page and its Referencing Statistics section:

• "When a statement from a character, guidebook, or even word of god contradicts what occurs in the series, they won't be used. For example, if an author says that a character from his work is incapable of shattering planets, even though it has destroyed galaxies on-screen, we will always go with the latter, rather than the former. The statement need to be consistent with what has been revealed within the fictional franchise itself. Otherwise, it will be considered invalid."
• "Author statements will only be accepted when they clarify what has been shown or implied in the series itself, and will be rejected when they contradict what has been shown to the audience. Statements that technically do not contradict anything shown in the series will still be rejected if there is no evidence that they are accurate."

OP absolutely fits the standards to a T.

Unless there are more instances, more evidences, more context that Planck forget to add with it's their respective evidence, I think the power here refers to absolute control.

We have already explained our disagreement regarding this but it seems neither of us will budge on this. Let's agree to disagree.

Correct, it is not limited, but the sense of his interpretation gave me this impression.

I guess that is ultimately your opinion.

 

[Georredannea15]

Not being a supporter doesn't bar you from debating here, else most staff wouldn't be able to vote as well. She offered her reasoning, even if I disagree with it. Let's respect that.

I mean, more careful reading of the arguments put to the OP, that's my only request. So I won't take users too seriously. And I will not answer.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I can't to respond to everything, but I will try to respectfully to address them.

 

[ThanatosX]

Yes but this also needs the narrative and context to support the fact that he can survive such a hit. If it's just "he didn't subatomize with a punch is completely dominated", it's not really a solid feat, especially in video games where they still need to have QTEs and dramatic scripted moments.

Which is why I opened that comment by saying that if we want to consider it Game Mechanic, Outlier or PIS I am fine with it. The comment was more on the general idea that a Tier 2 can somehow survive a Low 1-C attack without being of that Tier in durability, which is wrong, but I can understand it being an Outlier in the context of the series. Anyways, I already dropped the argument, so this will be my last comment on the matter.

Going back to the topic, I don't think a character can be a higher dimension than 4-D and still being 4-D, especially if this statement is used in the context of GoW where is made pretty clear that she is just above everything in the verse. Arceus's Avatar, for example, is 5-D without clear statements of qualitative superiority, but for statements similiar to Ascended Athena. I can see why some people can find it iffy, but I personally think it's consistent given that no one else would scale to that rating apart from few characters.

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, more careful reading of the arguments put to the OP, that's my only request. So I won't take users too seriously. And I will not answer.

Georr, I think you've done enough to contribute to the discussion, and that's more than appreciated. Now we can just leave this in the hands of staff, for Dread's opinion is just one among many.

 

[Planck69]

Which is why I opened that comment by saying that if we want to consider it Game Mechanic, Outlier or PIS I am fine with it. The comment was more on the general idea that a Tier 2 can somehow survive a Low 1-C attack without being of that Tier in durability, which is wrong, but I can understand it being an Outlier in the context of the series. Anyways, I already dropped the argument, so this will be my last comment on the matter.

Going back to the topic, I don't think a character can be a higher dimension than 4-D and still being 4-D, especially if this statement is used in the context of GoW where is made pretty clear that she is just above everything in the verse. Arceus's Avatar, for example, is 5-D without clear statements of qualitative superiority, but for statements similiar to Ascended Athena. I can see why some people can find it iffy, but I personally think it's consistent given that no one else would scale to that rating apart from few characters.

I thought the Arceus comparison was off-hand but I checked out of curiosity and it's legitimately the same sort of situation as Athena -_-.

 

[KLOL506]

I thought the Arceus comparison was off-hand but I checked out of curiosity and it's legitimately the same sort of situation as Athena -_-.

Bruh.

 

[KLOL506]

Anyway I don't think anyone is arguing against 5D HDE bullshit shenanigans anymore, just the Low 1-C part. Best to just leave it in the hands of the staff we tagged from this point onwards.

 

[Rau]

agree :3

ShionAH and Rave my wife​