Gilgamesh vs 2B

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Ok for the sake of this debate I guess we will ignore his space freezing sword since it makes this debate go nowhere. But it won't change that the space the sword cuts freezes and makes anything it hits covered ice on top of freezing the space. It won't matter anyway due to his space shattering weapons or the aoe of Ea.

 

[Schnee_One]

Space shattering weapons which he has never used and EA which he won't use first thing, by the time he does, Gravity Grenada allows 2 to strike his throat.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Ok if you are ignoring his space shattering weapons we might as well remove all Gilgameh's wins because in almost all of them his space shattering weapons has been used as an argument.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Also does 2B even start of with Gravity Manipulation in character? Gil will be hard pressed since 2B will be dodging everything forcing him to take the fight more seriously by using his full arsenal and Ea.

 

[Schnee_One]

How do you know that? Did you check the thread? Because how do you know that yet miss the version they are using?

Yes, 2B is a mission hell bent android, she'll use what's necessary, and by the time Gil realizes she's dodging everything, she'll already be close enough thanks to her Time manipulation.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Again it doesn't matter what version of Gil is used his vault is still the same near infinite treassury and some of them are his stay night version and Reppu has used his space cleaving weapons when talking about GoB power in said threads.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

The only thing that changes for Gil depending on version is the amount of power he can use compared to his true form as a heroic spirit and in CCC IIRC his vault is actually limited compared to his regular vault. Otherwise his vault and how GoB functions is the same.

 

[DaFritzi]

Gravity manipulation is a pod program that is commonly used by her. However it will only last for a limited time and will only cover a limited area around the targeted location.

The space shattering weapons were actually used as arguments in 2 other threads. Dunno what to say about this though. It would technically not have been ok to use them. If the OP deems it acceptable than for the sake of consistency Gil might as well be allowed to use them. It's not that much of a game breaker since ea basically does the same thing. Makes the fight more interesting.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

It would have been totally okay to use them because Gil's treasure is the same in every incarnation, excpet maybe Prisma Illya. CCC Gil is the same character as F/Z and F/SN Gil, just summoned on a different universe/timeline.

 

[Schnee_One]

And far stronger and with weapons never seen in FSN?

Gilgamesh himself isn't the same in every incarnation even, his personality changes in CCC and he's actually good in CQC.

 

[Schnee_One]

The only thing that changes for Gil depending on version is the amount of power he can use compared to his true form as a heroic spirit and in CCC IIRC his vault is actually limited compared to his regular vault. Otherwise his vault and how GoB functions is the same.

So what's his vault? Is it infinite? Does it have the weapons or not? Because either Gil has said weapons but is limited or he doesn't and then has no limit.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Gil is only stronger because he is not limited by a shitty class container. His vault is still the same regardless if he far stronger or if he doesn't use them in FSN since he couldn't even do it since FSN was released before CCC anyway.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

He's only stronger after getting an upgrade from the Moon Cell, his base form is the same. And yes, of course he's using different weapons, his enemies and mood are different.

It has already been stated before that Gil's personality changes in accordance to the era he was summoned in, his different personality in CCC is just a demonstration of that. He was always good in CQC, just not on Artoria or Kojirou's level.

Edit: I forgot about the class container thing, ignore what i said about his base form.

 

[Schnee_One]

Depends on your definition of good, he was overwhelmed by Shirou in a sword fight,

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Shirou that had traced and copied Archers fighting style and strength just like how in heavens feel he copied Berserkers strength in order to wield his axe sword to do his nine lives blade works and Gil lost his composure because "muh originals must be stronger curse you mongrel".

EDIT: Not only that every time Shirou copies a weapon he gains the skills comparable to the original owner.

 

[Schnee_One]

Losing his composure is still his fault.

Also isn't Archer a dual wielder? How does Shirou copy his fighting style and yet it works for a two handed blade?

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Well yeah kind of but he won't lose his composure against 2B because her very existence isn't a personal insult to him.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

Losing his composure is still his fault.
Also isn't Archer a dual wielder? How does Shirou copy his fighting style and yet it works for a two handed blade?

It also has nothing to do with his ability in CQC.

I'm pretty sure Archer can also fight with only one sword. Not to mention Shirou also got training from Artoria and he copies the skills of the weapon's original owner when he copies something, so it was less Gil being overwhelmed by Shirou and more Gil being overwhelmed by a sword-wielding legendary hero.

 

[DaFritzi]

Gils CQC skills aren't really the problem here.

It's rather the fact that he is physically only 7-B, it's the destructive power of ea and the phantasm spam of GoB that put him at 7-A. I see his problem rather in being beaten into to dust once 2B engages close combat, than in Gil being a worse swordsman than 2B.

 

[Schnee_One]

It also has nothing to do with his ability in CQC.

I'm pretty sure Archer can also fight with only one sword. Not to mention Shirou also got training from Artoria and he copies the skills of the weapon's original owner when he copies something, so it was less Gil being overwhelmed by Shirou and more Gil being overwhelmed by a sword-wielding legendary hero.

You did not just say that, you did not just say that composure doesn't mean anything in CQC, please tell me you're joking, losing your composure causes you too make mistakes and you're not going to be in the right state of mind and you will have trouble planning around your opponent, hell this applies to almost everything in life.


Wrong, he uses Kanshou, a single edged dagger, not a double handed long sword like Shirou used in UBW.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

You completely missed my point, though i guess i did word it pretty badly, so it's my bad on that one. Losing his composure affects how well he can apply his skills in CQC, yes, but it does not reduce those skills. I wasn't trying to say it would be irrelevant in a fight, i was trying to say that it's not an argument against his skill.

Okay first, Kanshou and Bakuya are not daggers. They're way too big for that. Second, do you really think that Archer can only fight with Kanshou and Bakuya? And third, this was already mentioned, but when Shirou copies a weapon, he also copies the skill of the original wielder. So when Shirou was fighting Gil in CQC with that long sword, he wasn't using his own skills in the first place, he was using the skills of a legendary hero.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Hey, uh, I'm not voting here because I don't really do vs matches, but I wanted to say a few things to promote the general welfare and whatnot.

• Prolly should ask Repp for input before this thread turns into a hatestorm. He's pretty knowledgeable on Fate and should be impartial; can also help with this next bit.

• Prolly should specify on Gil's profile wheter or not he has resistance to time manipulation in both keyes to avoid confusion.

• Prolly should figure out if 2B's Gravity Manipulation and Time Manipulation work on Gil's summoned weapons and homing attacks or not, or whether her teleportation could bypass the problem altogether.

• Prolly should listen to a great voice of our time before taking all this too seriously.

 

[Schnee_One]

You completely missed my point, though i guess i did word it pretty badly, so it's my bad on that one. Losing his composure affects how well he can apply his skills in CQC, yes, but it does not reduce those skills. I wasn't trying to say it would be irrelevant in a fight, i was trying to say that it's not an argument against his skill.

Okay first, Kanshou and Bakuya are not daggers. They're way too big for that. Second, do you really think that Archer can only fight with Kanshou and Bakuya? And third, this was already mentioned, but when Shirou copies a weapon, he also copies the skill of the original wielder. So when Shirou was fighting Gil in CQC with that long sword, he wasn't using his own skills in the first place, he was using the skills of a legendary hero.

Yes it most certainly does reduce those skills, I've seen kendo champions lose their nerves on the last few matches, unless that's what you mean by having trouble applying those skills, but if that's the case, the reducing part is entirely irrelevant.

No, it most certainly is an argument against his skill, keeping your composure is a skill in battle, not keeping it will affect your skill, there was a English fencer who participated in the Olympics last year, and was so nervous about losing the next game, that when the time arose, he lost his cool and failed blocking an easy headshot which caused him to lose the game. You can have the greatest technique in the world, but focus and composure takes priory.

That said, I'm dropping this argument, Gil still doesn't have a counter to facing 2B in a sword fight, a pod shooting lasers and grenades at him at the same time, and a close range gravity or time grenade.

 

[Ascha'Vovina]

I dunno if this has already been brought up, but how's 2B gonna get around the fact that only magic and mystically-augmented weapons can hurt Servants? Also, even the weakest Servant is magnitudes stronger, faster, and more durable than a normal human, and Gilgamesh is far from being a weak Servant.

 

[NotEvenHuman]

Actually never mind, i went back to the beggining of the thread and Gil is in character here, so he jobs hard and dies.

 

[Schnee_One]

I dunno if this has already been brought up, but how's 2B gonna get around the fact that only magic and mystically-augmented weapons can hurt Servants? Also, even the weakest Servant is magnitudes stronger, faster, and more durable than a normal human, and Gilgamesh is far from being a weak Servant.

Did you seriously just compare 2B, a Mach 400 mountain busting android to a human?

 

[Schnee_One]

He doesn't need to face her in a sword fight, if it comes to it, he can just put a ton of shields around himself and nuke the area with GoB. The lasers and grenades can be blocked, dodged and intercepted with Noble Phantasms.

How's the shield saving him from Gravity and time grenades?

EDIT: Oh nvm, 3 for 2B

 

[NotEvenHuman]

Gravity grenades wouldn't be enough to kill him in one-shot and he would still be nuking the area. I don't know how exactly the time grenades work, but if all they do is slow down time in a certain area, they wouldn't really help with getting past the shields. Not to mention they would probably be intercepted by a Noble Phantasm before actually getting close to him. But regardless, i edited that comment and switched my vote to 2B.

 

[Schnee_One]

Why won't they help? Gilgamesh isn't going to block in time against an opponent much faster then him, also gravity grenades can pull him away from the shield can't they?

I know I edited it.

 

[CivilProtectiom]

did you count my vote for 2B?

 

[Ascha'Vovina]

I dunno if this has already been brought up, but how's 2B gonna get around the fact that only magic and mystically-augmented weapons can hurt Servants? Also, even the weakest Servant is magnitudes stronger, faster, and more durable than a normal human, and Gilgamesh is far from being a weak Servant.

Did you seriously just compare 2B, a Mach 400 mountain busting android to a human?

No, but I'm just saying that Gilgamesh is far from being physically weak himself. He's just too arrogant to use his full power unless it's against a worthy opponent. Also, 2B being a "Mach 400 mountain busting android" (I haven't played the game myself, but from what I've seen of it that strikes me as being hyperbolic, though I could be wrong) doesn't help her if she can't even injure him in the first place unless her technology incorporates magic - which it very well could given the incursion of characters from the universe of Darkengard into the universe of NieR and that (going by a summary of the series I'm reading) magic-based technology is used in the latter.

 

[CivilProtectiom]

The closest thing to "Magic" 2B hs shown in my book is telekenises but she did KIll Emeil who most certainly can use magic. I mean still i find it useful to compare characters by looking at whove they have beaten.2B has beaten magic users (emil) and the 1000 meter mechanical monstrocity known as Grun (Nier: Automata) and canonically she fights enemies who exterminated the human race. So i think comparing a android like 2B to a human is a joke.

 

[Schnee_One]

I'm pretty sure verse equalization fixes the magic problem, if it doesn't, this is a stomp.

 

[Reppuzan]

For the record, Gil's resistance to Time Manipulation is tied to his magic resistance. If it isn't magical, he probably won't have resistance to it.

That said, I highly doubt that Time Manipulation would work very well against a weapon like Ea that casually dislocates it.

There's also the fact that Gil isn't as hopeless at close combat as everyone seems to think he is. While he's far from a master, he can still easily counter bloodlusted Saber's attacks by blocking weapons from the Gate of Babylon and held his own against Shirou while the latter was using the skills of other Servants who have mastered their weapons.

That said, I would heavily prefer it if someone would fill out 2B's profile since the descriptions of her capabilities are sparse at best compared to the extensive work we've put out for Gil's profile.

 

[Schnee_One]

Actually, time manipulation just increases 2Bs speed, it should really just slow him down to where he will struggle blocking her blows.

 

[CivilProtectiom]

Just a note. Time manipulation doesnt have to work on the wepon. It has to work on the holder of said wepon. A weapon is only as dangerous as its weilder.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

Speed is equalized making the time slow worthless, I think

 

[Schnee_One]

Nope, Time manipulation still works, because removing a powerful ability would make speed equal threads stupid.

Ryouko vs Dante, Erza vs 2B etc.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

What's the starting distance?

 

[Schnee_One]

What's the starting distance?

Standard battle assumptions say around 4 kilometers.

For someone who is mach 15 and time manipulation, that won't be a problem.