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GGZ Tier 0 Yog Sothoth Upgrade

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Okay again The other gods don't matter for this thread imo we can worry about them later.
I provided a theory tier for how it would work but don't think anyone responded to it.
Option A = Tier 0 is accepted
True form yog = tier 0
azathoth? = High 1-A+
Thanatos = ~1-A - high 1-A
zeus = 1-A
dreamland = ~low 1-A - 1-A

Option B tier 0 is rejected and 1-A is fine until we get more info for higher
Thanatos > zeus > concept
so Low 1-A there
1-A with azathoth, yog
then dreamland 2-A to low 1-A (gotta do some more research on the world lines, dreams, and how the dreamland continent works)

other options if can be decided of course but this my current thoughts. Babylon, wonderland, the outerspace, the colored gates, and any random other thing we can decide in a different thread or make a ggz general thread to discuss those scalign to make a crt + profile for them. but i feel we've gonna off topic as this was just for tier 0 yog and now we gonna and done some weird thing by showing the other gods and what not. ik they are relevant to the scaling of the outer gods but they can be decided later date.

I think personally for now low 1-A would be better then tier 0 but overall i am fine if tier 0 gets accepted or not so just gonna wait for ultima
 
I agree for Yog Sotthoth’s true form being tier 0.

In the her 4th Kizuna entry, Yog Sotthoth said that, unlike the Gods who were concepts, she was wisdom itself. She’s not an idea like them. This is further shown by the statement that the only thing that exists beyond the door to her home is wisdom.

Her 5th entry has some very interesting text.

“You, for example, are looking at this line of text, and as I am, looking at you through this line of text. This is how divine power works.”

In her current state of being, Yog Sotthoth treats the entire cosmology from a fictional perspective.

“This is the divine power of God, "description", or "definition". The only way to define the boundaries is to transcend them, and because we are free from all things, we can create all things, and so all things are born in our hands.”

Yog Sotthoth lacks all boundaries and definitions by virtue of being ontologically superior. None of the boundaries of the lower reality can be attached to her being. I don’t know if it matters here, but said lower reality includes a beyond dimensional object that cannot be understood by humans that contains absolute infinity.

“Many people through the ages have expressed their ideas through words, seeing them as tools, but they had not imagined that the real world is born from words, so just one word may contribute to the rise of a universe from the concept of chaos, and then fixate it, so it never perishes again. This is the divine power itself that God has given us, but unfortunately the vast majority of people can only use it ignorantly, even ignoring its spirituality.”

Yog Sotthoth is the divine force behind creation, the wisdom behind words that cannot be contained by them.
 
Breakdown said:
I agree for Yog Sotthoth’s true form being tier 0.
Click to expand...
Tier 0 is pretty much clear. We just need staff votes to publish her profile page. Ultima is currently neutral. At this rate, it's gonna take forever to get this evaluated. Since it's tier 0 thread, it's hard to continue without Ultima. We're basically stuck here
 
Weaver261 said:
Tier 0 is pretty much clear. We just need staff votes to publish her profile page. Ultima is currently neutral. At this rate, it's gonna take forever to get this evaluated. Since it's tier 0 thread, it's hard to continue without Ultima. We're basically stuck here
Click to expand...
I know, I’m just stating my mind and argument.
 
Bump! I should just make a new crt cuz bumping alone is going for pages
 
LifeRiderthe1 said:
Okay again The other gods don't matter for this thread imo we can worry about them later.
I provided a theory tier for how it would work but don't think anyone responded to it.
Option A = Tier 0 is accepted
True form yog = tier 0
azathoth? = High 1-A+
Thanatos = ~1-A - high 1-A
zeus = 1-A
dreamland = ~low 1-A - 1-A

Option B tier 0 is rejected and 1-A is fine until we get more info for higher
Thanatos > zeus > concept
so Low 1-A there
1-A with azathoth, yog
then dreamland 2-A to low 1-A (gotta do some more research on the world lines, dreams, and how the dreamland continent works)

other options if can be decided of course but this my current thoughts. Babylon, wonderland, the outerspace, the colored gates, and any random other thing we can decide in a different thread or make a ggz general thread to discuss those scalign to make a crt + profile for them. but i feel we've gonna off topic as this was just for tier 0 yog and now we gonna and done some weird thing by showing the other gods and what not. ik they are relevant to the scaling of the outer gods but they can be decided later date.

I think personally for now low 1-A would be better then tier 0 but overall i am fine if tier 0 gets accepted or not so just gonna wait for ultima
Click to expand...
Will anyone tell me thoughts on this? So We can Make Some Profiles for GGZ people?

But yea there needs imo more then Yogs Kizaru for tier 0 we kinda soly relaying on it. I mean to me it seems cut and dry its either 1-A or tier 0.
 
Here is the summary of the whole thread, its problems and conclusions for administrators to evaluate.
- Ultima agreed with Tier 0
Ultima_Reality said:
From what I can gather: Existence here is entirely defined by language, definition, and description, which provides a framework for reality and determines distinctions. Yog-Sothoth is beyond all those things and therefore beyond all boundaries and distinctions, which it sets in place to begin with.

The little story about the Tao seems to confirm that with the statement of "The name that can be named is not the eternal name," followed by "the name that can be named" being stated to be born from Yog-Sothoth's bubbles (i.e. Its power of definition). The story about the Buddha reiterates the same thing by saying a Bodhisattva has to leave behind all the marks of selfness and otherness, and eventually leave behind even the Dharma itself, since it is just a "raft" meant to lead you to what is ultimately ineffable. That, and the bit about all conditioned phenomena being illusions and etc.
Click to expand...
But changed his stance back to neutral after counter arguments arise.

- Counter arguments
Yog Sothoth existing in the place where time and space stand still
People can access the place beyond space and time, can create all things using divine power of Yog Sothoth (multiplicity of tier 0)
Yog Sothoth belonging to Babylon academy and babylon academy is composed of faiths and other godheads are stated as strongest in babylon instead of Yog Sothoth
The Mother gave birth to Outer God

Yog Sothoth description stated this which leads to the argument of existing in a place where time and space exists thus being beyond space and time is wrong.
"This World behind the door, where time and space have come to a standstill, has only wisdom remaining."
Click to expand...
Ultima said tier 0 is enough with statements fron entry about divine power of god and Tao stuffs is just supporting that fact more. But I think Tao is more important than Ultima think. Honkai Cosmology has multiple statements about Tao, Ying and Yang. Tao being the essence of all things, ying yang being two fundamental forces. It's pretty clear that Taoism concept is not just random stories but actual cosmology structure. Even Babylon is stated to have ying and yang.
The problem above is "existing in a place where time and space have come to a standstill". Her kizuna stated that "Nameless Tao arises in the bubble and exists in the bubble". And the bubble is stated to exist behind the door. Entry 5 stated bubble is just something Yog Sothoth likes and is a metaphorical device. So, it's safe to assume Tao comes from Yog Sothoth. The Tao exists behind the door which is the same door that people can see when they are about to be granted wisdom by Yog Sothoth.
In Taoism, Wuji is the un-manifest aspect of Tao. While both Tao and Wuij are equally valued, Wuji is the Tao in stillness. Taiji is the Tao is movement. The biography description said "where time and space have come to a standstill" and it's behind the door and only wisdom (Yog Sothoth) remaining. So, it's not talking about Yog Sothoth existing in a place where space-time still exists but rather talking about how the world behind the door is Wuji where the movement doesn't exist.
Ultima said if Wuji is decipted correctly, it's tier 0. Actuallyspaceman also said it can be tier 0 but due to the emergence of Taiji (movement), it can't be tier 0. But here it's stated that Yog Sothoth exists where time and space have come to a standstill (no movement). It's further enhancing the fact of Yog Sothoth being Tier 0.
You might say using external sources of Taosim should be invalid becuz Wuji is never mentioned in the story. But the entry 2 directly referenced Tao Te Ching and even used the same words. It should be valid.

Entry 5 is pretty tricky to handle since it's a meta fictional. The unique thing about Entry 5 is, it's not talking to a person inside the fiction but directly talking the reader as the line suggests. We have to accept that this line alone destroyed the argument of people being able to reach beyond space and time and get powers.
You, for example, are looking at this line of text, and as I am, looking at you through this line of text.
Click to expand...
Moreover, Yog Sothoth doesn't give powers to others. She only gives wisdom to them. All of her voicelines also suggests, she only gives wisdom to them. So giving out powers is also false. Then what entry 5 is for? It's for explaining the divine power of Yog Sothoth to us, readers. So, before making counter arguments about entry 5, mind about the meta fictional aspect of that.

Babylon is constituted with faith and also have ying and yang. All godheads in babylon are related to faith and their powers are also vary depending on the level of faith. But that rule won't apply to Outer Gods since The Mother lives outside of Babylon, Yog Sothoth True Form was never stated to exist inside Babylon. The only Outer God in Babylon is Azathoth. Even Azathoth can harm the spritiual air with her existence alone causing every godheads who came into contact with to sufffer. The Mother existence in Babylon can also destroy the balance of ying and yang. That's how much of the power difference between the godheads and outer gods. So that debunked the argument about Yog Sothoth not being the strongest in Babylon.
Yog Sothoth exists in Wuji behind the door where there's no movement of ying and yang. Babylon still has ying and yang meaning that Yog Sothoth doesn't live there.
She doesn't live in Babylon means Faith law doesn't apply to her.

This description about the mother "【The Mother, the Mother of the Stars, the larvae of the Outer Gods. She resides in a shipwreck, and controls countless tentacles.】"
The arguments about this is the mother gave birth to outer gods. But it's actually misinterpretation. The Mother is ripped off character of Star Mother.
The Larvae of Outer Gods doesn't mean The Mother gave birth to all outer gods but it's other way round. In story, Star Mother was born from the consciousness blast of Outer Gods who dance around Azathoth. That's why she is the larvae of the Outer Gods. Larvae of Outer Gods are like a group lesser Outer Gods in lovecraft overarching lore.

This is the summary of main counter arguments of this thread and its debunks. We shouldn't bump this thread anymore since the thread is pretty long already and I don't want this to disappear in that. Ultima already said he will look into this...I hope so :3
 
Weaver261 said:
Here is the summary of the whole thread, its problems and conclusions for administrators to evaluate.
- Ultima agreed with Tier 0

But changed his stance back to neutral after counter arguments arise.

- Counter arguments
Yog Sothoth existing in the place where time and space stand still
People can access the place beyond space and time, can create all things using divine power of Yog Sothoth (multiplicity of tier 0)
Yog Sothoth belonging to Babylon academy and babylon academy is composed of faiths and other godheads are stated as strongest in babylon instead of Yog Sothoth
The Mother gave birth to Outer God

Yog Sothoth description stated this which leads to the argument of existing in a place where time and space exists thus being beyond space and time is wrong.

Ultima said tier 0 is enough with statements fron entry about divine power of god and Tao stuffs is just supporting that fact more. But I think Tao is more important than Ultima think. Honkai Cosmology has multiple statements about Tao, Ying and Yang. Tao being the essence of all things, ying yang being two fundamental forces. It's pretty clear that Taoism concept is not just random stories but actual cosmology structure. Even Babylon is stated to have ying and yang.
The problem above is "existing in a place where time and space have come to a standstill". Her kizuna stated that "Nameless Tao arises in the bubble and exists in the bubble". And the bubble is stated to exist behind the door. Entry 5 stated bubble is just something Yog Sothoth likes and is a metaphorical device. So, it's safe to assume Tao comes from Yog Sothoth. The Tao exists behind the door which is the same door that people can see when they are about to be granted wisdom by Yog Sothoth.
In Taoism, Wuji is the un-manifest aspect of Tao. While both Tao and Wuij are equally valued, Wuji is the Tao in stillness. Taiji is the Tao is movement. The biography description said "where time and space have come to a standstill" and it's behind the door and only wisdom (Yog Sothoth) remaining. So, it's not talking about Yog Sothoth existing in a place where space-time still exists but rather talking about how the world behind the door is Wuji where the movement doesn't exist.
Ultima said if Wuji is decipted correctly, it's tier 0. Actuallyspaceman also said it can be tier 0 but due to the emergence of Taiji (movement), it can't be tier 0. But here it's stated that Yog Sothoth exists where time and space have come to a standstill (no movement). It's further enhancing the fact of Yog Sothoth being Tier 0.
You might say using external sources of Taosim should be invalid becuz Wuji is never mentioned in the story. But the entry 2 directly referenced Tao Te Ching and even used the same words. It should be valid.

Entry 5 is pretty tricky to handle since it's a meta fictional. The unique thing about Entry 5 is, it's not talking to a person inside the fiction but directly talking the reader as the line suggests. We have to accept that this line alone destroyed the argument of people being able to reach beyond space and time and get powers.

Moreover, Yog Sothoth doesn't give powers to others. She only gives wisdom to them. All of her voicelines also suggests, she only gives wisdom to them. So giving out powers is also false. Then what entry 5 is for? It's for explaining the divine power of Yog Sothoth to us, readers. So, before making counter arguments about entry 5, mind about the meta fictional aspect of that.

Babylon is constituted with faith and also have ying and yang. All godheads in babylon are related to faith and their powers are also vary depending on the level of faith. But that rule won't apply to Outer Gods since The Mother lives outside of Babylon, Yog Sothoth True Form was never stated to exist inside Babylon. The only Outer God in Babylon is Azathoth. Even Azathoth can harm the spritiual air with her existence alone causing every godheads who came into contact with to sufffer. The Mother existence in Babylon can also destroy the balance of ying and yang. That's how much of the power difference between the godheads and outer gods. So that debunked the argument about Yog Sothoth not being the strongest in Babylon.
Yog Sothoth exists in Wuji behind the door where there's no movement of ying and yang. Babylon still has ying and yang meaning that Yog Sothoth doesn't live there.
She doesn't live in Babylon means Faith law doesn't apply to her.

This description about the mother "【The Mother, the Mother of the Stars, the larvae of the Outer Gods. She resides in a shipwreck, and controls countless tentacles.】"
The arguments about this is the mother gave birth to outer gods. But it's actually misinterpretation. The Mother is ripped off character of Star Mother.
The Larvae of Outer Gods doesn't mean The Mother gave birth to all outer gods but it's other way round. In story, Star Mother was born from the consciousness blast of Outer Gods who dance around Azathoth. That's why she is the larvae of the Outer Gods. Larvae of Outer Gods are like a group lesser Outer Gods in lovecraft overarching lore.

This is the summary of main counter arguments of this thread and its debunks. We shouldn't bump this thread anymore since the thread is pretty long already and I don't want this to disappear in that. Ultima already said he will look into this...I hope so :3
Click to expand...
good job 👍
 
Bernkastelll said:
well, tier 0 upgrades usually catches a lot of attention...
Click to expand...
We're waiting for important translations. I've already messaged to Ant to ping staffs here after translations are ready. Ultima is pretty busy with his school. So yeah this will take some times.
 
LifeRiderthe1 said:

> 尤格索托斯・炽烬之间尤格索托斯的阴暗面，名为“亚弗戈蒙”的化身，拥有打破时空规则的禁忌之力。性格相比本尊更加暴躁乖戾。擅自闯入她房间的人类，都被她的怒火烧去过去、烧去未来、烧去存在于世的全部痕迹。以至于几乎无人可见她真实的身姿，而现存的书页中对她形象的记载，只留下了一束耀目的白炽。The dark side of Yog-Sothoth, the "Aforgomon" avatar, she has the forbidden power to break the rules of space and time.Her personality is even more violent than her original one. Human beings who broke into her chambers without authority angered her, which burned away their past, burned away their future, and burned away all traces of existence in the world.Her anger stretches so much that virtually no one has seen her true form, and the records of her appearance in inscriptions leave only a beam of dazzling incandescence.
金刚泡经其时，祇树给孤独园。世尊讲道须菩提，阿难附随，以笔记之。“……发阿耨多罗三藐三菩提心，应如是住，如是降伏其心。”……如是灭度无量无数无边众生。实无众生得灭度者。何以故。须菩提。若菩萨有我相。人相。众生相。寿者相。即非菩萨。”“……汝等比丘。知我说法。如筏喻者。法尚应舍。何况非法。”如是者三十一品，言如莲华，法相庄严，忽然止语。阿难惘然，抬首时，见世尊凝目于虚空。虽身在此间，仿若远离。大日之下，混然一泡而出，无智无得，状若琉璃，即现即隐。世尊寂然一笑，于是得第三十二品。“一切有为法。如梦幻泡影。如露亦如电。应作如是观。”众弟子心悦诚服，俯首称然，由是经成。唯有阿难，虽执笔完就，心中仍念是时之泡相，迟滞难言。At that time, in the Jetavana-vihara.The Buddha preached a sermon to Subhūti, and Ānanda took themselves to taking notes."... Having developed the mind of Avalokiteśvara, one should live as this, and surrender your heart like this.""... Yet of the immeasurable, boundless numbers of living beings thus taken across to extinction, there is actually no living being taken across to extinction. And why? Subhūti, if a Bodhisattva has a mark of self, a mark of others, a mark of living beings, or a mark of a life, he is not a Bodhisattva.""All you Bhikṣus should know that the dharma which I speak is like a raft. Even the dharma should be relinquished, how much the more so what is not dharmas."In the case of the Thirty-One Bhikṣus, the words were like the blossoms of lotuses, and the law was solemn, the preaching suddenly stopped.Ānanda was in a daze, and when they raised their head, they saw the Buddha staring into the void. Though here, it seemed that he was far away.Under the great sun, a bubble came out, without wisdom without gain, like a crystal, that is, appearing and disappearingThe Buddha laughed silently, and then they obtained the Thirty-Second Bhiksus."All conditioned phenomena, are like a dream, an illusion, a bubble, a shadow. Like the dew, or like lightning. You should discern them like this."All the disciples were convinced and bowed their heads and said "This is how the Sutra ends."Only Ānanda, although finished with the sutra he wrote, was still thinking about the bubble of time in his heart, where the delay was indescribable.


道德泡经
几百年后，函谷关。

白发的老人面前，关隘的守将正崇敬地看着他：

“您真的见到了，传说中的‘道’吗？”

“没错。”

老人温和的声音，宛如普泽的细雨，平复了守将心中的焦急。

“道就在那里，它在门后，也在门内。‘门’并不存在，但可以被看到，这正是其玄妙的根源……”

一个个梦幻的泡泡在函谷关上升腾了起来，老人的身影随着泡泡一起慢慢升临到半空中，身后那片琉璃的世界令守将目眩神迷。而他的声音还在不断响起：

“道，可道，非恒道也。由泡所发，向泡而生。

名，可名，非恒名也。出泡而形，入泡而真。

门，始终万物，玄妙之根，泡断影灭，生死相成……”

就在老人彻底消失之后，守将整理了他留下来的言语，并著成一书。但他删去了关于“泡”的描述。

不过，仍有人捕捉到了关于“泡”的蛛丝马迹，为了找到“泡”，人们将与其形貌相似的丹道视为通往“泡”的路径。

据说，当炼丹士们服下真正的金丹以后，他们就能抵达玄妙之门，得到“泡”赐予的无上智慧。


Hundreds of years ago, at the Hangu Pass.

Before the white-haired old man, stood a defender of the pass that looked at him with reverence.

"Have you truly seen the legendary "Tao"?"

"That's right."

The gentle voice of the old man, like the fine rain of Puze, calmed the anxiety in the guard's heart.

"The Dao is right there, it's behind the door, but also inside the door. The door itself doesn't actually exist, but it can still be seen. This really is the origin of all which is mysterious."

A dreamy bubble rose up from the Hangu Pass, and the old man's figure slowly rose up into the air along with the Bubble, the crystalized world behind him dazzling the guard. And his voice continued to ring out:

"The Dao that may be trodden is not the eternal Dao. It arises from the bubbles, and towards their direction it is born.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name. Coming forth from the bubbles it takes form, yet entering them it becomes real.

The door is the beginning and end of all living beings, it is the root of that which is mysterious. As bubbles are cut short and shadows are extinguished, life and death complement each other."

Just after the old man completely vanished, the guard compiled his words into a book. However, he removed the descriptions of these "bubbles".

Yet, there still are people who were able to grasp the still threads reminiscent of the Bubble. In order to capture the Bubble, people will look through the path of the Bubble together with the Golden Dan which resembles it.

It is said that after the scholars who practice alchemy have consumed the true Golden Dan they are able to penetrate through the door and acquire the Bubble's blessings and knowledge.
圣泡经·传道书
高山上。

王审视着臣民与沃野，那是他的所有物。

然而，并不因此自傲，也没有半点欣喜。

纵然是宇内所知的最伟大的人，号称“古往今来的智慧王”，但他也仍有许多无法了解，不可理解，不能明白的事情。

——世界从何诞生？神祇居于何处？万物之间是如何变化的？以及最重要的……人类为何会死？

“神啊……”

王被苦楚与疑惑蛀咬着内心。他祈求着神的回应，苦思着疑问的答案。

他仰望着天空，想象着厚重云层背后神明的面貌。

然后——

王看着横挂在天空上的巨大泡沫，睁大了眼睛。

“那是——”

门在眼前被打开，琉璃般的泡沫簇拥在身边，这是神明对他虔诚的奖赏，王感动地留下了泪水，心中明悟着无穷的智慧。

几个月以后，王坐在案前，决定将神明赐予自己的领悟分享给其他人。

然后，沉默良久，王在莎草纸上写出了第一行文字：

“虚空的虚空，虚空的虚空，凡事都是虚空。”
Holy Sutra - Ecclesiastes
Above the mountains.

The king examined his subjects and his fertile fields, which were in his possession.

However, he did not feel pride, nor did he rejoice in it.

Even though he was the greatest man known in the world, the "Wise King of the Ages", he still had many things that he could not know, could not understand and could not comprehend.

—Where did the world come from? Where does God reside? How do all things change from one another? And most importantly... Why do humans die?

"O YHWH..."

The king was bitten within by bitterness and doubt. He prayed for God's response and pondered bitterly for answers to his questions.

He looked up at the sky and imagined the face of God behind the thick clouds.

Then—

The King looked at the huge bubble that laid across the sky, and his eyes widened.

"Is that—"

The Door was opened in front of him, and the crystal-like bubbles surrounded him. This was the reward from God that he got from his piety. The King was moved to tears, and he had acquired infinite wisdom in his heart.

A few months later, the King sat in front of a table and decided to share the Wisdom that God had given him.

After a long silence, the King wrote the first line on the sedge paper:

"Meaningless! Meaningless! Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless!"
演讲者的遭遇新千年，关于神明的某场演讲。“……我认为，一切神明都是人类内心的某种投射，这种投射要么关乎自然，要么关乎人类自身。说到底，脱离人的意识，神就不会存在。”在下达了如此论断以后，演讲者昂首阔步走下台阶，背后响起经久不息的掌声。坐上驶离会场的轿车，演讲者在车后座上闭目屏息，享受着成功过后的片刻宁静。然而很快——司机的声音打破了这片宁静。“先生……我听到了您刚才的演讲，真的很厉害啊……”“哦？”演讲者自得一笑，“你也关心这种形而上的东西吗？”“倒也不是关不关心……只不过，我认为，神明也是实际存在的呢。”演讲者为司机的反驳皱了皱眉头：“噢，很常见，信仰神明的人不会喜欢神明的存在被否认。只不过为了得到智慧，否定神的实在，才能发生认知的飞跃。”“这样的吗？可是……我所相信的神，如果是智慧本身呢？”演讲者的背上忽然泛起了冷汗。不仅是因为司机悠扬的语气，更是因为窗外忽然泛起了梦幻般的光彩，就像是这辆车闯进了某扇门，进入了一个巨大的泡泡的内部一样。然后，在司机的口中，演讲者得到了更多匪夷所思的真相——宗教的起源，神明的诞生，智慧的由来，传道者们的共同体验……还有，那永恒的泡泡。几天之后，搜索失踪的演讲者的人们在山上发现了车辆，但并未在车内找到他。不知为何，车子的破损很严重，就像是从某个悬崖高处摔落下来一样，但它却正好被放置于山巅。

New millennium, at a speech about Gods.

"... I believe that all Gods are some kind of projection of the human heart, and that this projection is either about nature or about the person themselves. In the end, apart from in Human Consciousness, God cannot exist."

After making this assertion, the speaker strode down the steps with his head held high, follow by an unceasing applause.

Getting into his car, he drove away from the venue, the Speaker closed his eyes and held his breath in the back seat of the car, enjoying a moment of peace after his success.

Soon however—the driver's voice broke the silence.

"Sir... I heard the speech you just gave, it was impressive..."

"Oh?" The speaker smiled to himself, "Do you also care about such metaphysical things?"

"It's not that I don't care... But that I think that Gods actually exist too."

The Speaker frowned at the driver's retort: "Oh, it's common that people who believe don't like the existence of Gods to be denied. It's only in order to gain wisdom and deny the reality of God that a leap in cognition can occur."

"That? But... what if the God I believe in is Wisdom itself?"

A cold sweat suddenly flooded the Speaker's back.

Not only because of the driver's languid tone, but also because of the dreamy glow that suddenly flooded the window, as if the car had broken into some door and entered the interior of a giant bubble.

Then, from the driver's mouth, came truths that the Speaker could not believe—the origin of Religion, the Birth of Gods, the Origin of Wisdom, the common experience of preachers... And, the Eternal Bubble.

A few days later, people began to search for the missing preacher and found his vehicle in the mountains, but they did not find him within.

Somehow the car was badly damaged, as if it had fallen from a high cliff, but it was perfectly placed at the top of the mountain.

  1. 赞美吾主你好。恭喜你，抵达了这里。你想问这里是什么地方？噢……该怎么说呢，这里是天国，是星海，是仙界，是时空外的居所。无论叫什么名字都无关紧要，因为在这里，你能获得一切，通过伟大的神力。那么让我来为你演示神力的运作方式。既然来到了这里，那么请告诉我，在前面的四篇故事里，无论是世尊，老人，王，演讲者，关于他们最大的共同点，是什么？泡泡？不，不是，那只是一种表征，是一种象征手法，就像是太阳神坐着黄金马车出巡一样，并不是必须要黄金马车，只不过那是神明喜欢的东西。——真正最大的共同点，在于语言，以及文字。语言框定世界，文字制定规则，于是，时空就在这以外被框定。譬如你，正看着这行文字，也如我，在通过这行文字看着你。这就是神力的运作方式。人类会变老，肌肤会发灰，但文字之中的世界怎么可能会？这就是神赐的神力，“描述”，或者说“界定”。唯有超越界限，才能规定界限，正因脱离万物，所以能创造万物，于是万物都在手中诞生。古往今来许多人通过文字来表达观念，将其视作工具，但他们并没有想象过，真正的世界无时无刻不在文字之中诞生，那么仅仅是一个字，都有可能促成一个宇宙从混沌的观念里兴起，然后固定下来，从此再也不会灭亡。——这，便是神赐予我们的神力本身，可惜绝大多数人都只能懵懂地运用它，甚至忽视它的灵性。现在，使用它，创造你的世界，不为时空所制约，永恒独立的世界。顺便，如果有空的话，赞美吾主——尤格索托斯。
    Praise our Lord. Hello Congratulations on arriving here. What's this place, you ask? Oh... How should I put it, this is the Kingdom of Heaven, the Sea of Stars, the Immortal World, the Abode outside of Time-Space. It doesn't matter what it's called, because here you have access to all things, through great divine power. So let me demonstrate for you how this divine power works. Now that you're here, tell me, what is the greatest common denominator in the 4 previous stories, whether it be the Buddha, the Old Man, the King or the Speaker, what is it about them that's the same? Bubbles? No, no, that's just a metaphor, a symbolic device, like the Sun God riding out in a golden carriage, it doesn't really HAVE to be a golden carriage, it's just that that's what the god likes.—The truly biggest common denominator is language, and words. Language frames the world, words make the rules, and so space and time are framed beyond this. You, for example, are looking at this line of text, and as I am, looking at you through this line of text. This is how divine power works. Humans get old, their hair grays, but how about the world within words? This is the divine power of God, "description", or "definition". The only way to define the boundaries is to transcend them, and because we are free from all things, we can create all things, and so all things are born in our hands. Many people through the ages have expressed their ideas through words, seeing them as tools, but they had not imagined that the real world is born from words, so just one word may contribute to the rise of a universe from the concept of chaos, and then fixate it, so it never perishes again.—This is the divine power itself that God has given us, but unfortunately the vast majority of people can only use it ignorantly, even ignoring it's spirituality. Now, use it to create your world, unconstrained by time and space, eternally independent. By the way, if you have time, praise my Lord, Yog-Sothoth
Those the main things posted for yog but its not all there is. , , , .
Do I count Wonderland? if so heres some of it
I'll send it anyways https://imgur.com/a/fg8HG28

Babylon academy:
https://www.miyoushe.com/bh2/article/8597586 , https://imgur.com/a/VLhN5eP

https://imgur.com/a/XLa9WIV, https://imgur.com/a/WIQfpNc

anyways yea that should be all there is.
Click to expand...

Ultima_Reality said:
******* unbelievable.

Anyway: I'll wait for a translation of the stuff that's in Chinese. But for the stuff that's translated, I have nothing to say, really. Tier 0 is cut and dry here.
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ActuallySpaceMan42 said:
Loli Yog Sothoth being equal to the actual one is crazy. I don't have much to say on the Tier 0 stuff, like Ultima said, it really is cut and dry. But, the profile needs some serious work. Abilities need explanations, and references at the very least and the formatting is a bit off.
Click to expand...
@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Everything12 @Agnaa @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @RatherClueless @DarkGrath

We seem to need evaluation help here. 🙏
 
Weaver261 said:
Here is the summary of the whole thread, its problems and conclusions for administrators to evaluate.
- Ultima agreed with Tier 0

But changed his stance back to neutral after counter arguments arise.

- Counter arguments
Yog Sothoth existing in the place where time and space stand still
People can access the place beyond space and time, can create all things using divine power of Yog Sothoth (multiplicity of tier 0)
Yog Sothoth belonging to Babylon academy and babylon academy is composed of faiths and other godheads are stated as strongest in babylon instead of Yog Sothoth
The Mother gave birth to Outer God

Yog Sothoth description stated this which leads to the argument of existing in a place where time and space exists thus being beyond space and time is wrong.

Ultima said tier 0 is enough with statements fron entry about divine power of god and Tao stuffs is just supporting that fact more. But I think Tao is more important than Ultima think. Honkai Cosmology has multiple statements about Tao, Ying and Yang. Tao being the essence of all things, ying yang being two fundamental forces. It's pretty clear that Taoism concept is not just random stories but actual cosmology structure. Even Babylon is stated to have ying and yang.
The problem above is "existing in a place where time and space have come to a standstill". Her kizuna stated that "Nameless Tao arises in the bubble and exists in the bubble". And the bubble is stated to exist behind the door. Entry 5 stated bubble is just something Yog Sothoth likes and is a metaphorical device. So, it's safe to assume Tao comes from Yog Sothoth. The Tao exists behind the door which is the same door that people can see when they are about to be granted wisdom by Yog Sothoth.
In Taoism, Wuji is the un-manifest aspect of Tao. While both Tao and Wuij are equally valued, Wuji is the Tao in stillness. Taiji is the Tao is movement. The biography description said "where time and space have come to a standstill" and it's behind the door and only wisdom (Yog Sothoth) remaining. So, it's not talking about Yog Sothoth existing in a place where space-time still exists but rather talking about how the world behind the door is Wuji where the movement doesn't exist.
Ultima said if Wuji is decipted correctly, it's tier 0. Actuallyspaceman also said it can be tier 0 but due to the emergence of Taiji (movement), it can't be tier 0. But here it's stated that Yog Sothoth exists where time and space have come to a standstill (no movement). It's further enhancing the fact of Yog Sothoth being Tier 0.
You might say using external sources of Taosim should be invalid becuz Wuji is never mentioned in the story. But the entry 2 directly referenced Tao Te Ching and even used the same words. It should be valid.

Entry 5 is pretty tricky to handle since it's a meta fictional. The unique thing about Entry 5 is, it's not talking to a person inside the fiction but directly talking the reader as the line suggests. We have to accept that this line alone destroyed the argument of people being able to reach beyond space and time and get powers.

Moreover, Yog Sothoth doesn't give powers to others. She only gives wisdom to them. All of her voicelines also suggests, she only gives wisdom to them. So giving out powers is also false. Then what entry 5 is for? It's for explaining the divine power of Yog Sothoth to us, readers. So, before making counter arguments about entry 5, mind about the meta fictional aspect of that.

Babylon is constituted with faith and also have ying and yang. All godheads in babylon are related to faith and their powers are also vary depending on the level of faith. But that rule won't apply to Outer Gods since The Mother lives outside of Babylon, Yog Sothoth True Form was never stated to exist inside Babylon. The only Outer God in Babylon is Azathoth. Even Azathoth can harm the spritiual air with her existence alone causing every godheads who came into contact with to sufffer. The Mother existence in Babylon can also destroy the balance of ying and yang. That's how much of the power difference between the godheads and outer gods. So that debunked the argument about Yog Sothoth not being the strongest in Babylon.
Yog Sothoth exists in Wuji behind the door where there's no movement of ying and yang. Babylon still has ying and yang meaning that Yog Sothoth doesn't live there.
She doesn't live in Babylon means Faith law doesn't apply to her.

This description about the mother "【The Mother, the Mother of the Stars, the larvae of the Outer Gods. She resides in a shipwreck, and controls countless tentacles.】"
The arguments about this is the mother gave birth to outer gods. But it's actually misinterpretation. The Mother is ripped off character of Star Mother.
The Larvae of Outer Gods doesn't mean The Mother gave birth to all outer gods but it's other way round. In story, Star Mother was born from the consciousness blast of Outer Gods who dance around Azathoth. That's why she is the larvae of the Outer Gods. Larvae of Outer Gods are like a group lesser Outer Gods in lovecraft overarching lore.

This is the summary of main counter arguments of this thread and its debunks. We shouldn't bump this thread anymore since the thread is pretty long already and I don't want this to disappear in that. Ultima already said he will look into this...I hope so :3
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Here is the summary for staffs to evaluate
 
Hi there, I'm the current maintainer of the HG2 wiki and this is my first post so I only post the clean scans for Yog-Sothoth.
(order of the stories aren't correct, you need to adjust the texts a bit)
长居宇宙时空之外的神明，拥有着无限的智慧，也因此产生了无穷的寂寞。#n在这里，你能得到想要的一切，只不过在得到的同时……或许也会失去意义。
Click to expand...
《金刚泡经》
赞美吾主
《道德泡经》
《圣泡经·传道书》
演讲者的遭遇
其时，祇树给孤独园。#n世尊讲道须菩提，阿难附随，以笔记之。#n“……发阿耨多罗三藐三菩提心，应如是住，如是降伏其心。”#n“……如是灭度无量无数无边众生。实无众生得灭度者。何以故。须菩提。若菩萨有我相。人相。众生相。寿者相。即非菩萨。”#n“……汝等比丘。知我说法。如筏喻者。法尚应舍。何况非法。”#n如是者三十一品，言如莲华，法相庄严，忽然止语。#n阿难惘然，抬首时，见世尊凝目于虚空。虽身在此间，仿若远离。#n大日之下，混然一泡而出，无智无得，状若琉璃，即现即隐。#n世尊寂然一笑，于是得第三十二品。#n“一切有为法。如梦幻泡影。如露亦如电。应作如是观。”#n众弟子心悦诚服，俯首称然，由是经成。#n唯有阿难，虽执笔完就，心中仍念是时之泡相，迟滞难言。
你好。#n恭喜你，抵达了这里。#n你想问这里是什么地方？#n噢……该怎么说呢，这里是天国，是星海，是仙界，是时空外的居所。#n无论叫什么名字都无关紧要，因为在这里，你能获得一切，通过伟大的神力。#n那么让我来为你演示神力的运作方式。#n既然来到了这里，那么请告诉我，在前面的四篇故事里，无论是世尊，老人，王，演讲者，关于他们最大的共同点，是什么？#n泡泡？不，不是，那只是一种表征，是一种象征手法，就像是太阳神坐着黄金马车出巡一样，并不是必须要黄金马车，只不过那是神明喜欢的东西。#n——真正最大的共同点，在于语言，以及文字。#n语言框定世界，文字制定规则，于是，时空就在这以外被框定。#n譬如你，正看着这行文字，也如我，在通过这行文字看着你。#n这就是神力的运作方式。人类会变老，肌肤会发灰，但文字之中的世界怎么可能会？这就是神赐的神力，“描述”，或者说“界定”。唯有超越界限，才能规定界限，正因脱离万物，所以能创造万物，于是万物都在手中诞生。#n古往今来许多人通过文字来表达观念，将其视作工具，但他们并没有想象过，真正的世界无时无刻不在文字之中诞生，那么仅仅是一个字，都有可能促成一个宇宙从混沌的观念里兴起，然后固定下来，从此再也不会灭亡。#n——这，便是神赐予我们的神力本身，可惜绝大多数人都只能懵懂地运用它，甚至忽视它的灵性。#n现在，使用它，创造你的世界，不为时空所制约，永恒独立的世界。#n顺便，如果有空的话，赞美吾主——尤格索托斯。
几百年后，函谷关。#n白发的老人面前，关隘的守将正崇敬地看着他：#n“您真的见到了，传说中的‘道’吗？”#n“没错。”#n老人温和的声音，宛如普泽的细雨，平复了守将心中的焦急。#n“道就在那里，它在门后，也在门内。‘门’并不存在，但可以被看到，这正是其玄妙的根源……”#n一个个梦幻的泡泡在函谷关上升腾了起来，老人的身影随着泡泡一起慢慢升临到半空中，身后那片琉璃的世界令守将目眩神迷。而他的声音还在不断响起：#n“道，可道，非恒道也。由泡所发，向泡而生。#n名，可名，非恒名也。出泡而形，入泡而真。#n门，始终万物，玄妙之根，泡断影灭，生死相成……”#n就在老人彻底消失之后，守将整理了他留下来的言语，并著成一书。但他删去了关于“泡”的描述。#n不过，仍有人捕捉到了关于“泡”的蛛丝马迹，为了找到“泡”，人们将与其形貌相似的丹道视为通往“泡”的路径。#n据说，当炼丹士们服下真正的金丹以后，他们就能抵达玄妙之门，得到“泡”赐予的无上智慧。
高山上。#n王审视着臣民与沃野，那是他的所有物。#n然而，并不因此自傲，也没有半点欣喜。#n纵然是宇内所知的最伟大的人，号称“古往今来的智慧王”，但他也仍有许多无法了解，不可理解，不能明白的事情。#n——世界从何诞生？神祇居于何处？万物之间是如何变化的？以及最重要的……人类为何会死？#n“神啊……”#n王被苦楚与疑惑蛀咬着内心。他祈求着神的回应，苦思着疑问的答案。#n他仰望着天空，想象着厚重云层背后神明的面貌。#n然后——#n王看着横挂在天空上的巨大泡沫，睁大了眼睛。#n“那是——”#n门在眼前被打开，琉璃般的泡沫簇拥在身边，这是神明对他虔诚的奖赏，王感动地留下了泪水，心中明悟着无穷的智慧。#n几个月以后，王坐在案前，决定将神明赐予自己的领悟分享给其他人。#n然后，沉默良久，王在莎草纸上写出了第一行文字：#n“虚空的虚空，虚空的虚空，凡事都是虚空。”
新千年，关于神明的某场演讲。#n“……我认为，一切神明都是人类内心的某种投射，这种投射要么关乎自然，要么关乎人类自身。说到底，脱离人的意识，神就不会存在。”#n在下达了如此论断以后，演讲者昂首阔步走下台阶，背后响起经久不息的掌声。#n坐上驶离会场的轿车，演讲者在车后座上闭目屏息，享受着成功过后的片刻宁静。#n然而很快——司机的声音打破了这片宁静。#n“先生……我听到了您刚才的演讲，真的很厉害啊……”#n“哦？”演讲者自得一笑，“你也关心这种形而上的东西吗？”#n“倒也不是关不关心……只不过，我认为，神明也是实际存在的呢。”#n演讲者为司机的反驳皱了皱眉头：“噢，很常见，信仰神明的人不会喜欢神明的存在被否认。只不过为了得到智慧，否定神的实在，才能发生认知的飞跃。”#n“这样的吗？可是……我所相信的神，如果是智慧本身呢？”#n演讲者的背上忽然泛起了冷汗。#n不仅是因为司机悠扬的语气，更是因为窗外忽然泛起了梦幻般的光彩，就像是这辆车闯进了某扇门，进入了一个巨大的泡泡的内部一样。#n然后，在司机的口中，演讲者得到了更多匪夷所思的真相——宗教的起源，神明的诞生，智慧的由来，传道者们的共同体验……还有，那永恒的泡泡。#n几天之后，搜索失踪的演讲者的人们在山上发现了车辆，但并未在车内找到他。#n不知为何，车子的破损很严重，就像是从某个悬崖高处摔落下来一样，但它却正好被放置于山巅。
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Proof of my scans:
WcQgLZN.png


Proof of ownership:
OB0DjUh.png
 
Edit: Skipping mod approval due to a bug with edit.
Some of my argument why Yog can't be T0:

Have no proven capability in Babylon: Most characters in Babylon have their lore written in the past, the timeline before they enter Babylon (eg. on different planets unless proven in same planet like Grothier vs Sariel), Yog is no exception. Some of the most powerful characters in Babylon usually have their writing style being present time at Babylon, for example: Azathoth, Lupit, Ares, Hades, etc...

Made with standard Faith: Everything in Babylon is made with Faith (read Lupit story) which means the beast can eat any gods, the primary method is weaken them enough then eat. There are suggestions in Lupit's story that she can can also eat chairs and benches as food. Being standard Faith user means they can't make any significant damage to Lupit and at best they can only tank the beast's damage at some point. Only Fantasy Legend gods and gods using FL's power (prefer to magical girls) can deal damage to the beast.
i4Cd6oN.png

A god can be killed by a "god" who have better tier: The first known casualty in the Babylon world is Ares, who is known widely known as the strongest Babylon Academy god so there must be someone or something stronger than Yog.
——到了。
伴随着西敏的指引，两人在信仰之力的海洋之中不断下潜。
最终，那个目的地——也就是初始之地的通道，出现在了她们面前。
就是here了么？
就是这里。
进入这条通道内，真相就会浮出水面。
……虽然迄今为止，我们也没能够走到它的尽头。
但我们相信，如果巴比伦存在一个“神”，那祂一定存在于这条通道的最后。
好，那me就去看看~
战神无双的脸上仍然挂着微笑，毫不犹豫地朝着通道前进。
但她的眼神却变得有些模糊，随着她不断靠近通道，越来越多的景象也映现在了脑海里。
悲哀的孤独……
无法穷尽的黑暗……
在那片黑暗中，唯一能陪伴着自己的，便只有……
“我想要……”
“创造……”
西敏紧紧地注视着战神无双，而就在后者踏上通道的一刹那，意想不到的事情发生了。
——嗯？！
只见存在于初始之地深处的整条通道，都在这一刻爆发出了强光，而通道本身也在这同时，如同不堪重负一般节节震动了起来——
这是……
……计划中不存在的变化！
强光喷涌而出，虽然西敏想要反抗，但就在她摆好防御姿态的同一时间，光芒已经将她吞没在内。
下一刹那，仿佛无穷无尽的强光不断蔓延开去——
Ares_funeral_scene.webp
  • Note: Westminster is known as the leader of Fantasy Legend, a faction appears outside of Babylon Academy and if I'm correct, she was the former master of Lupit.
In the HG2 multiverse, there's a character Ling Yi who is known to be the avatar of the HG2 writer group, what's make her special is that she is unbound by anything (she's the author of most HG2 story narratives), can even get knowledge from another games like Honkai Impact 3 (there's also Genshin slimes and Tears of Themis guys in HG2 but I'm not sure if she bring them from their original game) and put it to HG2.
  • You can find her narratives in every single HG2 update trailer (I'm only playing on CN server).
  • Known to be the previous author of Honkai Impact 3 (she didn't anymore)
  • Known to be the author of Fire Moth DLC and and spoiler the next DLC
  • A video revealed that Ling Yi's favorite character in HI3 is Elysia, she even tries to imitate Ely voice, which spoilers that Ely is a collab character in HG2 (HG2xHI3 got delayed a bit as after the video as there's Neptunia collab)
    CgF5TQ8.png

My conclusion: Yog-Sothoth in HG2 is at best only tier 1-A or lower unless HoYo put her with better plot armor (magical girls have their tier being useless combat gods to somewhat useful as they are the only normal gods can hit Lupit at this point).
 
I think if I could be honest here, most of the arguments are valid if Yog-Sothoth is actually labeled as an Outer God, but again. Yeah, most of this seems vague as nothing is hinted directly to Yog-Sothoth itself: Worse, Yog-Sothoth somehow isn't even involved in all this..

And yeah for the first argument, I think it wouldn't be an anti-feat at the least if their lore is written because it wouldn't disprove that they're still incomprehensible to those who are writing it.

All I've been seeing up to this point, I don't think Yog-Sothoth could be classified as Outer Gods anymore as Weaver already described she doesn't come from the Mother like the rest of the Outer Gods. I'd like to make an assumption that Yog-Sothoth is simply called an Outer God by the people simply because they misunderstood her and labeled her as one. But again, I don't know much about GGZ.
 
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