GGZ Tier 0 Yog Sothoth Upgrade

[Weaver261]

It rather seems that 灵衣娘 is a meta-character who's like the author of the franchise and appears in-various "stingers" and behind-the-scenes/bloopers content, but not necessarily part of the canon storyline itself. Honestly, if we're going by this type of stuff, even Bronya can be tier 0 via owning miHoYo, which is the real-life company that governs all Hoyoverse projects (Honkai Impact 3rd, Gun Girls Z, Genshin Impact, etc.), though, I don't think we should incorporate these types of fourth-wall breaks into the main canonicity. Other than this, I don't have high confidence in the area of tier 0; 1-A seems to be rather very straightforward and fine, though.

Ling Yi has no transcendent over Godheads except for Plot Manipulation as you can see her in the 10th anniversary event with other godheads. Not just in 10th anniversary event but every appereances she had never implied she has transcendent over others. The whole Ling Yi scaling thing should be discarded.
Tier 0 is pretty outright too. Many people agreed with tier 0 even this manager of wiki. Although they posted debunks on tier 0, all of them are just assumptions based on how other godheads behave. As I said multiple times before, Yog Sothoth doesn't live in Babylon. She lives in the world behind the door where there's no movement of time and space.

This World behind the door, where time and space have come to a standstill, has only wisdom remaining.

Babylon students live in their respective academies. Yog Sothoth belongs to Cthullu Faction but the building reserved for Cthullu branch is used by Azathoth alone.

Once they come to the dilapidated Schoolhouse K, where there is only one Divinity living, that being Azathoth, the God of Blindness and Foolishness.

Some cthullu figures live in other places while others live in their own realms. The mother resides in shipwreck outside of Babylon.

【The Mother, the Mother of the Stars, the larvae of the Outer Gods. She resides in a shipwreck, and controls countless tentacles.】

There's no statement or scan of Yog Sothoth's existence in Babylon.
The whole faith thing shouldn't apply to Outer Gods since they are not compatible with Faith. Azathoth can taint the spiritual air in Babylon with her mere presence.

The time that Azathoth spends in each slumber is counted in years. The sightless girl wakes up and does no more than stroll through Babylon unhurriedly, by virtue of her incomprehensible powers. Yet the chaos and spiritual taint she brings is as if to remind the world that everything they once knew is but the tip of the iceberg of the real world.

The Mother can crush the balance of Ying and Yang of Babylon just by walking there.

"I have a feeling that if this being is allowed to walk Babylon, the balance of Yin and Yang will be crushed."
Chaos' judgment once again confirmed Metis' fears, while Universal Nature came for the same reason as Metis:

Moreover, Yog Sothoth being the nameless Tao should predate and transcend ying and yang that still constitute Babylon.
Yeah, all of the wiki manager's debunks are based on other Godheads while Yog Sothoth has literally no interaction with them. Even with the avatar form, the only interaction Yog Sothoth had was with Nyarthalotep and it's not even clear whether the place Nyarthalotep coming to Yog Sothoth is in Babylon or not.
Outer Gods are feared by other godheads with their mere existences. The Mother who is not even a true outer god is recorded in the darkest page of babylon library as it's a forbbiden knowledge.

As the Goddess of Wisdom, she instinctively felt uneasy, so even if she felt extremely disgusted by the idea of even touching that knowledge, she still opened the darkest page in her Library:

Azathoth can literally make godheads went insane just by locking eyes with her.

Blossom claimed to have witnessed twisted creatures far more terrifying than demons crawling around the areas that Azathoth passed through.
Kanna saw shiny objects appear on the ground, but was too scared to pick them up.
Gatling kept shooting at the sky, chanting while breaking out in cold sweat, "Why can't I just die!?"

Mao, the Divinity who could handle these sounds the least, put on the latest nosie-cancelling headphones and joined Thor, who worked to maintain order, in protest against Azathoth.
However, they merely locked eyes with Azathoth for a moment and surpisingly sat gazelessly besides Azathoth, nodding their heads together to appreciate this noise.

I think all of this debunks should be clear by now.

 

[Delta333]

I read that and posts following that; those appear to be anti-feats for the "Outer God" key that's actually an avatar/vessel and not the true self of Yog. And I said later said anti feats against vessels or avatars not having Tier 0 durability are not anti feats against true selves being Tier 0. I am open-minded about having 2nd thoughts given what Garrixian said, but 1-A still seems like a minimum; but true self seems to be another layer of R>F compared to other 1-A characters. But if Weaver has contentions against Garrixian's most recent statement, I'm all ears.

Have you read the part about Chronos predating Yog Sothoth?

Chronos, the God of Time, is the oldest and most primitive god. She controls time and sets the eternal rules for the world in the flow of time, that is, nothing in the world can remain unchanged forever. Whether it is humans or gods, they can only accept it even if they feel something is wrong, because they cannot survive against its rules.
时间之神柯罗诺斯，最古老而又原始的神。她掌控着时间，定下世界在时间流动之中永恒不变的规则，那就是，世间万物均无法永恒不变。而无论是人类亦或是神，哪怕觉得有所不妥也只能接受，只因为他们无法逆其规则而生存。

 

[Antvasima]

@Max20091

Do you have further arguments to make here?

 

[Max20091]

@Max20091

Do you have further arguments to make here?

I'm likely not having any further arguments about this stuff.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So do you still object to the suggested tier 0 statistics or not?

 

[Weaver261]

Chronos, the God of Time, is the oldest and most primitive god. She controls time and sets the eternal rules for the world in the flow of time, that is, nothing in the world can remain unchanged forever. Whether it is humans or gods, they can only accept it even if they feel something is wrong, because they cannot survive against its rules

Btw for those who might not know, this description is stating how she is the oldest god in her universe. Not talking about the whole Babylon. Everybody comes from their own respective universes and some of them even embody the same concept.

 

[Delta333]

Btw for those who might not know, this description is stating how she is the oldest god in her universe.

The scan only says that she is the oldest god, the “in her universe” part is added by you, everyone can check the Chinese description.

 

[Weaver261]

The scan only says that she is the oldest god, the “in her universe” part is added by you, everyone can check the Chinese description.

Chronos has a birthdate meaning she isn't the oldest. Meanwhile Yog Sothoth has no birthdate and Yog Sothoth knows the birth of gods too.

Not only because of the driver's languid tone, but also because of the dreamy glow that suddenly flooded the window, as if the car had broken into some door and entered the interior of a giant bubble.
Then, from the driver's mouth, came truths that the Speaker could not believe—the origin of Religion, the Birth of Gods, the Origin of Wisdom, the common experience of preachers... And, the Eternal Bubble.

 

[Delta333]

Chronos has a birthdate meaning she isn't the oldest.

Every god in Hoyoverse has an avatar so the birthday refers to the avatar, and the true form always exist as the concept of what they control, meaning Chronos is the concept of time within the god system of GGZ. Or do I need to bring examples about Aeons and Kiana?

Meanwhile Yog Sothoth has no birthdate

Because time doesn't exist in her realm, not because she is the first god.

Yog Sothoth knows the birth of gods

Feel free to explain what knowing the birth of gods (doesn't even say all gods) has anything to do with predating all gods.

 

[Weaver261]

Every god in Hoyoverse has an avatar so the birthday refers to the avatar, and the true form always exist as the concept of what they control, meaning Chronos is the concept of time within the god system of GGZ. Or do I need to bring examples about Aeons and Kiana?

There's no mention of Godheads having their avatars anywhere. If you have scans of godheads having avatars, feel free to share it here. Just because they embody concept, doesn't mean they will have avatars. That's just baseless assumption. Aeons and Kiana has nothing to do with Babylon Godheads or Outer Gods at all.

Because time doesn't exist in her realm, not because she is the first god.

It's your words. It's not stated anywhere in scans. It's just your assumption that birthdate doesn't exist becuz time doesn't exist in her realm. Yog Sothoth being the Tao already predates and transcends the Babylon which has Ying and Yang. Chronos is the concept of time and Yog Sothoth exist outside of it. Why you even think someone who existed outside of time since who knows how long is a later existence than Chronos?

Feel free to explain what knowing the birth of gods (doesn't even say all gods) has anything to do with predating all gods.

This is just more of an assumption rather than a concrete fact. This is just for supporting my arguments. Just like how you assumed Chronos predates Yog Sothoth without showing any relation or comparison between them, just like how you assumed no birthdate becuz no time in her realm. Usually, knowing something becuz you observed it from the outside. Being the ultimate wisdom, Yog Sothoth knows everything. There's no statement of Yog Sothoth becoming Wisdom or any state prior to that. So, it's safe to assume Yog Sothoth is wisdom always. Combine that with having no birthdate clearly mean she predates everythings.

 

[Delta333]

Just because they embody concept, doesn't mean they will have avatars.

So you admit that Chronos is the concept of time, I don't think I need to explain why concept of time having birthday is stupid.

If you have scans of godheads having avatars, feel free to share it here.

It doesn't even need scan, it's common sense for every abstract character to have an avatar to function normally with a form, do you think concept exists with a shape?

That's just baseless assumption. Aeons and Kiana has nothing to do with Babylon Godheads or Outer Gods at all.

Your own thread literally proves that Yog Sothoth has avatar, otherwise I can just say that she is not tier 0 due to 158cm in height.

It's your words. It's not stated anywhere in scans

Send me the scan that says she doesn't have a birthday due to being the oldest then (it doesn't even say she has no birthday to begin with).

Chronos is the concept of time and Yog Sothoth exist outside of it.

Existing outside of something is not predating something. It's like saying I'm older than America.

knowing something becuz you observed it from the outside

As the god of wisdom with infinite wisdom she must always know the birth of gods passively rather than need to actively observe the whole process of the god's birth to know about that. At this point you even debunk her omniscience.

 

[Weaver261]

So you admit that Chronos is the concept of time, I don't think I need to explain why concept of time having birthday is stupid.

I will let staffs decide whose argument is more valid. Yog Sothoth having avatars doesn't imply other Godheads will have avatars too. All of your words just assumptions. Also I noticed how you didn't address Yog Sothoth transcending and predating Babylon by her virtue of being Tao and transcending every boundries. I'm sure staffs will know what to do with these. I will just wait for that cuz this is pretty much pointless to argue since all of your arguments come from assumptions.

 

[Delta333]

Yog Sothoth having avatars doesn't imply other Godheads will have avatars too.

It is called God Physiology, and I even explain why abstract beings (who don’t appear as formless being) must have an avatar.

Also I noticed how you didn't address Yog Sothoth transcending and predating Babylon by her virtue of being Tao and transcending every boundries.

It is because I don’t need to explain why transcending and predating don’t have similar meaning (and tbh nothing suggests that Chronos exists after Babylon comes to existence, so even if Yog Sothoth predates Babylon nothing changes).

all of your arguments come from assumptions.

Says the guy who wrote paragraph to explain Yog Sothoth observation of Gods birth that’s not mentioned anywhere in her lore (plus no scan of her not having a birthday).

 

[Weaver261]

(plus no scan of her not having a birthday).

Damn

Meanwhile Yog Sothoth has no birthdate

Translated version

 

[Delta333]

Translated version

It’s simply unknown.

 

[Weaver261]

It’s simply unknown.

If it is unknown, it'd be written there. - means no birthdate. God

 

[Delta333]

If it is unknown, it'd be written there. - means no birthdate. God

Because it’s unknown, there’s nothing to write there. At this point you use even more assumptions.

 

[Weaver261]

Because it’s unknown, there’s nothing to write there. At this point you use even more assumptions.

Me in the who can make shit up more competition and my opponent is Delta333
I will just wait for the staff evaluation on all of this. I think we've already presented enough claims from each sides for the staffs to evaluate. Antvasima if you reading this, we are all done here arguing and any more of this will only clog the thread and pointless. We can move on now.

 

[Max20091]

Okay. So do you still object to the suggested tier 0 statistics or not?

I object this tier 0, not having enough data in my opinion.

 

[Max20091]

Says the guy who wrote paragraph to explain Yog Sothoth observation of Gods birth that’s not mentioned anywhere in her lore (plus no scan of her not having a birthday).

This Yog is indeed not have birthday, but that stat alone doesn't magically make her T0.
There are a lot of characters not having a birthday (1 of them even having fake stats displayed).
All characters I'm aware of without birthday.
And the birthday stat is assuming converted to the 4th wall timing, there are characters that changes according to the smartphone's time.

If the writer clearly intend to hide the stats, they will display them as ??? or saying something vague.
Edit: I forgot that there's even a character without birthday and magically gain birthday stat later, and FL gods also not having birthday too.

 

[Delta333]

This Yog is indeed not have birthday, but that stat alone doesn't magically make her T0.
There are a lot of characters not having a birthday (1 of them even having fake stats displayed).
All characters I'm aware of without birthday.
And the birthday stat is assuming converted to the 4th wall timing, there are characters that changes according to the smartphone's time.

Thanks for the information that can debunk her tier 0. Tbh I say that Yog having no birthday in the sense that “because she is the first god in lore” is objectively wrong, not that I disagree about Yog having no birthday being displayed in game.

 

[Weaver261]

This Yog is indeed not have birthday, but that stat alone doesn't magically make her T0.

I think you guys misunderstood about something in my arguments. I brought up the none existence Yog Sothoth's birthdate, not to prove her T0 but rather to debunk the absurd arguments of "Chronos" being the oldest. Chronos's kizuna is all about her life before coming to Babylon. Being the oldest in her universe doesn't mean she is older than Yog Sothoth. It's an absurd claim. Yog Sothoth doesn't even have a birthdate to begin with. Yog Sothoth has no connection with Chronos either.

 

[Delta333]

Being the oldest in her universe doesn't mean she is older than Yog Sothoth.

You keep saying this but none of the scan says that at all.

Yog Sothoth doesn't even have a birthdate to begin with.

And again her birthday is simply not displayed in game like many other characters, there are other characters whose birthdays are not displayed but their birthdays are not non-existence (like those in Max examples).

 

[Antvasima]

Delta and Max seem to make sense to me here. This seems far too uncertain for a Tier 0 statistic.

 

[Weaver261]

Delta and Max seem to make sense to me here. This seems far too uncertain for a Tier 0 statistic.

You should read Chronos's story which is pretty short. You can see it's all about her life before coming to Babylon. So, being the oldest in her universe doesn't mean she is older than Yog Sothoth. It's just baseless assumption. Yog Sothoth being Tao should already predate everything since everything in existence from that

“The Dao that can be spoken of is not the eternal Dao. It arises from bubbles and exists in bubbles.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name. It emerges from bubbles and becomes true within bubbles.
The door is the origin of all things, the root of mystery. Bubbles burst and shadows disappear, life and death intertwine...”

I will wait other staffs' evaluations on this.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So do you still object to the suggested tier 0 statistics or not?

@Max20091

 

[Max20091]

@Max20091

Oh, I object tier 0.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for your reply.

 

[Delta333]

So, being the oldest in her universe doesn't mean she is older than Yog Sothoth.

Please, just send me one part that mentions to being oldest “in her universe” (because her story only says that she is the oldest) and I will concede. Is it really that hard to do?

 

[Weaver261]

Please, just send me one part that mentions to being oldest “in her universe” (because her story only says that she is the oldest) and I will concede. Is it really that hard to do?

There's no context about Babylon in her story. As you guys claim in the past few arguments, that literally means her past.

Most characters in Babylon have their lore written in the past, the timeline before they enter Babylon

You also have no proof of Chronos's story being in the Babylon at all. This information should be unrelated to Yog Sothoth. I will let staffs decide if her story has something to do with Yog Sothoth or not.

 

[Max20091]

You also have no proof of Chronos's story being in the Babylon at all. This information should be unrelated to Yog Sothoth. I will let staffs decide if her story has something to do with Yog Sothoth or not.

I didn't say anything about Chronos.
Now that I mentioned Chronos then if my information is incorrect, you also invalidate yourself, the whole Proof for "Mythical" Gods being Conceptual Beings must be false narrative.

Be aware that Chronos is in the same universe as Zeus.

I can say that dead characters from Greek series do appear in Babylon, you can easily prove this by common senses or reading Hades and Persephone story.

 

[Weaver261]

I didn't say anything about Chronos.
Now that I mentioned Chronos then if my information is incorrect, you also invalidate yourself, the whole Proof for "Mythical" Gods being Conceptual Beings must be false narrative.

Be aware that Chronos is in the same universe as Zeus.

I can say that dead characters from Greek series do appear in Babylon, you can easily prove this by common senses or reading Hades and Persephone story.

There's no misinformation in that part of the OP but yeah this godheads scaling I post in the beginning needs a real re-work and better scaling. But still it doesn't affect Yog Sothoth tier 0. This post was written pretty long ago so I tried to prove godheads = concepts which I can prove without adding those. I have plans to modify the OP but still yog Sothoth tier 0 is valid and many agreed with it. To be honest, the whole idea of Chronos older than Yog Sothoth is pretty absurd considering they came from different universe and have no connection whatsoever. Yog Sothoth being Tao predates everything in existence.
Edited: Also chronos's story stated that she is in the mortal world

The act of experiencing the passage of time in the mortal world didn't know how long it lasted.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

Please, just send me one part that mentions to being oldest “in her universe” (because her story only says that she is the oldest) and I will concede. Is it really that hard to do?

The concept of being "old", being "oldest" or "primitive = first one to come in chronology" is a concept of time. It can be predated for hells sake, as we are talking about an entity with such strength, like how this character does in this wiki as an example.

Why are you trying to claim "being oldest god", which should only apply to gods that don't predate time, to try debunking a god that lives devoid of it, as a counterargument? What a pathetic choice.

 

[Delta333]

The concept of being "old", being "oldest" or "primitive = first one to come in chronology" is a concept of time. It can be predated for hells sake, as we are talking about an entity with such strength, like how this character does in this wiki as an example.

Why are you trying to claim "being oldest god", which should only apply to gods that don't predate time, to try debunking a god that lives devoid of it, as a counterargument? What a pathetic choice.

Yog simply exists outside of time, she doesn't predate time itself like Nil, if you can't prove that Yog created Chronos like how Nil created Time then you should not use her as an example. I already played HTWML.

 

[Rabbit2002]

The concept of being "old", being "oldest" or "primitive = first one to come in chronology" is a concept of time. It can be predated for hells sake, as we are talking about an entity with such strength, like how this character does in this wiki as an example.

Why are you trying to claim "being oldest god", which should only apply to gods that don't predate time, to try debunking a god that lives devoid of it, as a counterargument? What a pathetic choice.

As the person who literally wrote this whole thing in their profile. No! Regardless of whether Nill predates "Time" or not, there is still a "time perio" to define. The time period that only Nill (or Space) calls The Beginning, and it can easily be returned to using Time's time-reversal ability. In other words, the concept of "oldest" still applies to them.

Spoiler

Note: Reasons for their CM type 1 is that in the beginning scenes of Game , Time wanders alone in Nill's The Darkness/Void after Nill wipes out all of Time's memories/universes and Everything, starting a new one with just her and Time , it is also said to be the Beginning/The Start many times, same thing as the Beginning/nothingness that Nill embodies in the context which is Time always going back there to save and live together with Space, leaving Nill alone. Also, Space has always existed in The Beginning/Start, she even created stars to be less lonely because the beginning/beginning was just nothingness and darkness, her act of creating stars is supposed to put "something" in "Nothing" and Time also assumes its steadily glow piercing "tiny holes of Nill's Darkness/Nothingness/Beginning". It even implies that that place was always the beginning/nothingness, until Time came and that place became "in the middle".

In other words Time and Space as Concepts existed before and after everything they represented existed. The stars are not really literal stars but are more like conceptual extensions of "something" placed in Nill's Nothingness instead of Space itself like the stars inside Vaccum space like real life.

And time also exists after all the times are erased, treat them as memories she can go back to the Beginning, even if all memories are erased she's perfectly fine like the beginning of the Game that we see

 

[Rabbit2002]

The concept of being "old", being "oldest" or "primitive = first one to come in chronology" is a concept of time. It can be predated for hells sake, as we are talking about an entity with such strength, like how this character does in this wiki as an example.

Why are you trying to claim "being oldest god", which should only apply to gods that don't predate time, to try debunking a god that lives devoid of it, as a counterargument? What a pathetic choice.

Also Yog's case is different from Nill's. If "existing outside of time" is the only argument then Yeah. Time is the same since she literally exists in Nill's Void, and you know her "age"

 

[Weaver261]

Okay this is gonna get derailed at this rate. Here is my final stance. Chronos's kizuna has literally no connection with Babylon or Yog Sothoth at all. It's written there that Chronos made herself forgot the identity of Goddess of time and sealed her god consciousness. And she lives among the mortals in mortal world. This lack of information and connection to Yog Sothoth make this whole claim fall flat here.
My argument for the last time (I swear :3) Yog Sothoth is Tao. The door that leads to Tao is described as "origin of all things". As we can see in serveral contexts, Tao is the ever presence concept in Honkai Cosmology. Tao being the essence of all being and outcome, Babylon having Yin & Yang, Yin & Yang being the fundamental forces that govern everything.

 

[Delta333]

Yog Sothoth is Tao. The door that leads to Tao is described as "origin of all things". As we can see in serveral contexts, Tao is the ever presence concept in Honkai Cosmology. Tao being the essence of all being and outcome, Babylon having Yin & Yang, Yin & Yang being the fundamental forces that govern everything.

No one says that she is not Tao tho. What others argue is that she is Tao with anti feats.

 

[Weaver261]

No one says that she is not Tao tho. What others argue is that she is Tao with anti feats.

Those anti feats comes from unrelated assumptions like how Chronos being the oldest predates Yog Sothoth while Yog Sothoth has nothing to do with Chronos. I can just say Tao predates everything and that will still be true. As I linked the scans, Tao predates everything. That literally debunks your claims of Chronos predating Yog Sothoth. Chronos is only stated as the oldest god, not the oldest existence while Yog Sothoth Tao is stated as "Origin of all things". Also based on Taoism, Tao predates everythings and that includes Babylon and whole cosmology too which has yin yang as fundamental forces

 

[Max20091]

As we can see in serveral contexts, Tao is the ever presence concept in Honkai Cosmology.

Honkai Cosmology can't be applied to Babylon (and universes before that) as there is no Honkai in that multiverse at all (this stuff is from the HG2 writer implying).

And Babylon is a totally different multiverse unlike main Honkai universe and Wonderland. There was old version which Babylon which was in the same main Honkai universe but that thing got retconned due to too much nonsense.