GGZ Tier 0 Yog Sothoth Upgrade

[Max20091]

It just seems like a normal question to me and doesn't reek of the usual battleboard jargon / shenanigans. Usually those are easy to tell. Either way I agree with GarrixianXD on this yeah.

I saw on the first post Weaver use imaginary tree to draw conclusion about the character and that thing is instantly Fallacy for me.

Sounds like a case of Hasty Generalization or Fallacy of Composition if no such evidence exists. The lack of any mentions regarding "Imaginary Tree" does make it seem like that.

Yea it does, but not for me, for Weaver with the first post. Not sure how fallacies applies to debate in vsbattle.

 

[Antvasima]

Can each side of this discussion summarise their arguments in an explanation post please?

 

[Max20091]

Can each side of this discussion summarise their arguments in an explanation post please?

My side of arguments about the GGZ connection to HI3:

• Lot of the HI3 elements are intentionally removed from GGZ (HG2) and vice versa to separate the worldview of 2 games.
• Many Chinese players in the GGZ playerbase agree that GGZ should be a standalone cosmology compared to "HI3/HSR/or what future HoYo game releases" to avoid uncertainty about the connections between them (except Babylon which is confirmed to have HI3 characters in there). Even CN playerbase can't trust what Dawei (CEO of miHoYo) or the other CEO talk as they can't keep the 2 games connected in the last 10 years.
• If the writers are sure that 2 games are connected together through a thing called "Imaginary Tree" which is what used to connect HI3 and HSR, it isn't hard for them to double check this statement.

In my opinion, people shouldn't use HI3 to draw conclusion about HG2 as this can easily create fallacies, especially the "imaginary tree connection" that is at least 5 years old and the writers didn't directly confirm it anywhere in the game (I think the CEOs talking about the "HoYoverse Cosmology" rather than IT or named Honkai Cosmology based on HI3 concept).
HoYoverse Cosmology and Honkai Cosmology are almost sound the same, but they are totally 2 different things. 1 thing can be used to connect any games regardless of connection, another one is specifically for HI3 used to justify the connection between games.

And about Yog who is in Babylon (or at least her being linked to Babylon through other character stories).

• The connection between the main universe and Babylon (which this character Yog is inside) is completely retconned by the writers so the rules from the main universe can't be applied to Yog. I'm asking Weaver to specifically avoid using this statement to claim Yog is that strong.
• There's a character story that implies all Gods have a common UES called "Faith", and another character story implies that human created Faith (by trusting gods) and this value can also increase or decrease over time.
• Babylon is the common ground that anyone can put any mythologies to there to test their combat power as long as they have proper story written while in Babylon. Unfortunately some gods went to Babylon have their Faith reduced (this also implies that even if Yog is beyond space and time, her power can be changed over time by merely human trust).
• The reason why I object Yog for tier 0 is because there's not enough data about her, there are many characters having combat feats written to be the almost strongest while in Babylon (I think gods can check the Faith stat).

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out.

Do others here also wish to write summaries?

 

[Weaver261]

First of all, this thread doesn't need to connect with Hi3 to get tier 0 as it's self sufficient but that doesn't mean GGZ and HI3 are not connected. If you looked at all of my scans for proving that, it's clear developers really consider GGZ and HI3 as parallel worlds inside Honkai Universe. Not to mention the re occuring concepts between two worlds like imaginary space, herrschers, Honkai, stigma, characters and so on.....Btw that's what 99.99% of global players agree on :3 (Also bonus note: In Legacy Storyline with Fuhua and Will of Abyss, Fuhua was shown Hi3 version of her by WOA.)

For Yog Sothoth tier 0, In Divine Comedy's kizuna, it's clearly stated she was influenced by Faith power system only after she came to Babylon. And that means those who lives outside of Babylon are not under Faith system. Yog Sothoth should live in School Building K where Cthullu students live but that building was used by Azathoth alone. Yog Sothoth True Self lives in the world behind the door where time and space is not moving. Only her avatar is in contact with Nyarthalotep. It's pretty clear whatever going on in Babylon has nothing to do with her. Also Babylon and main universe connection was never retconned as far as I know. If @Max20091 has scans of that, they can provide it. Babylon entrance was connected to Main Universe before Otto Apocalypse blew it up. Nevertheless they are still in the same cosmology.
Also Babylon is still composed with two fundamental forces, Yin and Yang. Yog Sothoth is nameless Tao itself plus her virtue of transcending definitions and boundries, she transcends everything that is composed of Yin and Yang. Metaphorical door that lead to her realm is stated as origin of all thing. Also @Max20091 claimed that Yog Sothoth power can change which is not even confirmed or happened. Outer Gods are not like normal Godheads. They are incompatible with Babylon Academy's spritiual existence (possibly faith). As they are a different type of gods that are much powerful than normal godheads, it's not right to claim Yog Sothoth power can change. Moreover, there's no mention of Outer Gods power being reduced by faith at all while most Godheads in stories always revolve around this idea.

The sightless girl wakes up and does no more than stroll through Babylon unhurriedly, by virtue of her incomprehensible powers. Yet the chaos and spiritual taint she brings is as if to remind the world that everything they once knew is but the tip of the iceberg of the real world.
- Azathoth

As the Goddess of Wisdom, she instinctively felt uneasy, so even if she felt extremely disgusted by the idea of even touching that knowledge, she still opened the darkest page in her Library:
【The Mother, the Mother of the Stars, the larvae of the Outer Gods. She resides in a shipwreck, and controls countless tentacles.】
Not enough, still not enough, how can only such a little information convince everyone?
In that moment of Metis' trouble, Choas brought over Universal Nature,
"I have a feeling that if this being is allowed to walk Babylon, the balance of Yin and Yang will be crushed."
Chaos' judgment once again confirmed Metis' fears, while Universal Nature came for the same reason as Metis:
- The Mother's Kizuna

- Counter arguments
Yog Sothoth existing in the place where time and space stand still
People can access the place beyond space and time, can create all things using divine power of Yog Sothoth (multiplicity of tier 0)
Yog Sothoth belonging to Babylon academy and babylon academy is composed of faiths and other godheads are stated as strongest in babylon instead of Yog Sothoth
The Mother gave birth to Outer God

Spoiler: My Debunks for existing in space-time

Yog Sothoth description stated this which leads to the argument of existing in a place where time and space exists thus being beyond space and time is wrong.
Ultima said tier 0 is enough with statements fron entry about divine power of god and Tao stuffs is just supporting that fact more. But I think Tao is more important than Ultima think. Honkai Cosmology has multiple statements about Tao, Ying and Yang. Tao being the essence of all things, ying yang being two fundamental forces. It's pretty clear that Taoism concept is not just random stories but actual cosmology structure. Even Babylon is stated to have ying and yang.
The problem above is "existing in a place where time and space have come to a standstill". Her kizuna stated that "Nameless Tao arises in the bubble and exists in the bubble". And the bubble is stated to exist behind the door. Entry 5 stated bubble is just something Yog Sothoth likes and is a metaphorical device. So, it's safe to assume Tao comes from Yog Sothoth. The Tao exists behind the door which is the same door that people can see when they are about to be granted wisdom by Yog Sothoth.
In Taoism, Wuji is the un-manifest aspect of Tao. While both Tao and Wuij are equally valued, Wuji is the Tao in stillness. Taiji is the Tao is movement. The biography description said "where time and space have come to a standstill" and it's behind the door and only wisdom (Yog Sothoth) remaining. So, it's not talking about Yog Sothoth existing in a place where space-time still exists but rather talking about how the world behind the door is Wuji where the movement doesn't exist.
Ultima said if Wuji is decipted correctly, it's tier 0. Actuallyspaceman also said it can be tier 0 but due to the emergence of Taiji (movement), it can't be tier 0. But here it's stated that Yog Sothoth exists where time and space have come to a standstill (no movement). It's further enhancing the fact of Yog Sothoth being Tier 0.
You might say using external sources of Taosim should be invalid becuz Wuji is never mentioned in the story. But the entry 2 directly referenced Tao Te Ching and even used the same words. It should be valid.

Spoiler: My Debunks for people being able to access the divine power of Yog Sothoth by reaching to Yog Sothoth

Entry 5 is pretty tricky to handle since it's a meta fictional. The unique thing about Entry 5 is, it's not talking to a person inside the fiction but directly talking the reader as the line suggests. We have to accept that this line alone destroyed the argument of people being able to reach beyond space and time and get powers.
Moreover, Yog Sothoth doesn't give powers to others. She only gives wisdom to them. All of her voicelines also suggests, she only gives wisdom to them. So giving out powers is also false. Then what entry 5 is for? It's for explaining the divine power of Yog Sothoth to us, readers. So, before making counter arguments about entry 5, mind about the meta fictional aspect of that.

Spoiler: My Debunk about Yog Sothoth not being the strongest godhead in Babylon

Babylon is constituted with faith and also have ying and yang. All godheads in babylon are related to faith and their powers are also vary depending on the level of faith. But that rule won't apply to Outer Gods since The Mother lives outside of Babylon, Yog Sothoth True Form was never stated to exist inside Babylon. The only Outer God in Babylon is Azathoth. Even Azathoth can harm the spritiual air with her existence alone causing every godheads who came into contact with to sufffer. The Mother existence in Babylon can also destroy the balance of ying and yang. That's how much of the power difference between the godheads and outer gods. So that debunked the argument about Yog Sothoth not being the strongest in Babylon.
Yog Sothoth exists in Wuji behind the door where there's no movement of ying and yang. Babylon still has ying and yang meaning that Yog Sothoth doesn't live there.
She doesn't live in Babylon means Faith law doesn't apply to her.

Spoiler: My Debunk for The Mother gave birth to Outer Gods

This description about the mother "【The Mother, the Mother of the Stars, the larvae of the Outer Gods. She resides in a shipwreck, and controls countless tentacles.】"
The arguments about this is the mother gave birth to outer gods. But it's actually misinterpretation. The Mother is ripped off character of Star Mother.
The Larvae of Outer Gods doesn't mean The Mother gave birth to all outer gods but it's other way round. In story, Star Mother was born from the consciousness blast of Outer Gods who dance around Azathoth. That's why she is the larvae of the Outer Gods. Larvae of Outer Gods are like a group lesser Outer Gods in lovecraft overarching lore.

This is the summary of main counter arguments of this thread and its debunks. We shouldn't bump this thread anymore since the thread is pretty long already and I don't want this to disappear in that. Ultima already said he will look into this...I hope so :3

This threads is already at 10 pages and it's derailing a lot. I will add more into the summary about everything discussed so far.

@Max20091 and @Delta333 arguments mainly revolve around Chronos being the oldest god thus predates Yog Sothoth and that disqualify Tier 0.
My debunk : Chronos is only stated as the oldest god, not the oldest existence. Meanwhile Yog Sothoth is Tao and by her virtue, she predates everything in existence.

• Door that lead to Tao is stated as "origin of all thing" Mind that the door is also a metaphor since it doesn't exist.
• Tao is the essence of all being and outcome
• Yin and Yang are two fundamental forces that govern everything in cosmo
• Babylon also has yin and yang

Yog Sothoth being the Tao predates everything in existence. Chronos's story has no relation to Yog Sothoth or Babylon at all. Chronos is currently at mortal world living among mortals.

Another claims they made was GGZ doesn't share the cosmology as Hi3, HSR and Genshin.
My debunk: Mihoyo CEO said GGZ and HI3 are parallel worlds branching from the same storyline. Co-CEO of Mihoyo also showed GGZ as part of Honkai Universe. Even the parallel worlds model is the same idea as Hi3.
In other world storyline in GGZ, it's stated as such here which align with Imaginary Tree model given by Nagamitsu
“You mean… this world is a hypothetical world created by the Honkai?”
Faced with Kiana’s question, Kevin shook his head.
“In areas where the source of Honkai is strong, the original laws of nature will be disrupted and even time and space will be distorted. But this world is not a fake created by the Honkai, but a world that actually exists in the Universe.”
“What do you mean!?”
“Yes, for each different choice, a new parallel world will be generated in the universe.”
Kevin turned his head and looked at Kiana: “And this is but one of many worldlines that diverge with Kevin Kaslana’s decisions at the centre.
Everything you see is just a bubble in the tiny Universe.”

Their debunks for this is about how CEO doesn't know GGZ and Hi3 aren't parallel. Like what? No offense but who they are to say for the sake of CEO of mihoyo?? About how 99.99% CN community doesn't agree with GGZ and HI3 being parallel while not showing any believeable statistics. (99.99% what is this? Soap ads? xD)
Later on, their arguments become more baseless and empty as you can see here and here
@Max20091 managed the fan wiki but has little ideas of how power scaling work. I talked with them in their discord server and that's what they said.

I hope this helps in understanding the thread better for staffs. Tier 0 is already clear and outright, agreed by multiple staffs with no staff disagree so far. I will update this when this thread get derailed again

I will address canonicity issues too although this thread literally doesn't need to be linked with Hi3 to get Tier 0 applied as it's self sufficient.
@Max20091 's claims of GGZ not being canon to the Honkai Universe is literally false! First of all, Imaginary Tree is a theoretical model of the Universe with many worlds. It's not literally a tree. Otto theorized it as a tree in Hi3, Zandar theorized it as a tree in HSR. Although their models are similar, there're still small differences since they aren't the same person and Imaginary Tree is a theoretical model not an universal truth.
So, saying GGZ doesn't have imaginary tree is like saying Universe doesn't exist in GGZ which is completely ridiculous. Moreover, GGZ has already showed similar Universe Model to Imaginary Tree although it was never dubbed as Imaginary Tree.
In other world storyline in GGZ, it's stated as such here which align with Imaginary Tree model given by Nagamitsu
“You mean… this world is a hypothetical world created by the Honkai?”
Faced with Kiana’s question, Kevin shook his head.
“In areas where the source of Honkai is strong, the original laws of nature will be disrupted and even time and space will be distorted. But this world is not a fake created by the Honkai, but a world that actually exists in the Universe.”
“What do you mean!?”
“Yes, for each different choice, a new parallel world will be generated in the universe.”
Kevin turned his head and looked at Kiana: “And this is but one of many worldlines that diverge with Kevin Kaslana’s decisions at the centre.
Everything you see is just a bubble in the tiny Universe.”

As Da Wei said, GGZ and Hi3 are parallel worlds. And Co-CEO Haoyu Cai also confirmed that they already have this Honkai Universe idea ever since 2014 which means they have planned this all along to be parallel worlds. Moreover, In Hi3 comics, it's confirmed again as GGZ & Hi3 are parallel worldlines. GDC confirmation is not even outdated, it was like at 2021. Da Wei korean interview is from 2017. Da Wei even said "They want to create their own Marvel Universe".
So the whole claims about how Hi3 dodging GGZ connection questions don't really debunk already established idea here. Also Hoyoverse and Honkai Universe are not the same. Hoyoverse is the company name for Global distribution and that's why GGZ is not part of it since EN server are already shut down. Hoyoverse is for business purpose while Honkai Universe is for lore setting which is meta-universe or their own marvel universe.

I hope you guys can accept this.

Edited : btw mind that @Max20091 didn't link a single scan to back their claims while I showed tons of scans for my claims

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. And do any other members who disagree with Weaver261's interpretation wish to write an explanation post as well?

 

[Max20091]

For Yog Sothoth tier 0, In Divine Comedy's kizuna, it's clearly stated she was influenced by Faith power system only after she came to Babylon. And that means those who lives outside of Babylon are not under Faith system. Yog Sothoth should live in School Building K where Cthullu students live but that building was used by Azathoth alone. Yog Sothoth True Self lives in the world behind the door where time and space is not moving. Only her avatar is in contact with Nyarthalotep. It's pretty clear whatever going on in Babylon has nothing to do with her. Also Babylon and main universe connection was never retconned as far as I know. If @Max20091 has scans of that, they can provide it. Babylon entrance was connected to Main Universe before Otto Apocalypse blew it up. Nevertheless they are still in the same cosmology.
Also Babylon is still composed with two fundamental forces, Yin and Yang. Yog Sothoth is nameless Tao itself plus her virtue of transcending definitions and boundries, she transcends everything that is composed of Yin and Yang. Metaphorical door that lead to her realm is stated as origin of all thing. Also @Max20091 claimed that Yog Sothoth power can change which is not even confirmed or happened. Outer Gods are not like normal Godheads. They are incompatible with Babylon Academy's spritiual existence (possibly faith). As they are a different type of gods that are much powerful than normal godheads, it's not right to claim Yog Sothoth power can change. Moreover, there's no mention of Outer Gods power being reduced by faith at all while most Godheads in stories always revolve around this idea.

About the entrance to Main Universe, there's a problem with the "same cosmology" here. If by your logical then Yog is as powerful as this:

And if you say she is T0 so she is more powerful than Will of Honkai and Kiana&Mei while being a weapon? Now you need to explain how a weapon can be more powerful than the most powerful characters ever confirmed in the main universe then.

About the retcon, that stuff was lost media, you can read this while I was searching for them,there's a button named Partner Stories (Removed) which you can read.

Guns Girl Z Story Interpreter

Read cutscenes from Guns Girl Z in the web browser.

ggz.amaryllisworks.pw

Where the game said Babylon is composed of Yin and Yang? I only see the game said everything in Babylon is made from Faith.

Spoiler: In Babylon, Faiths constitutes everything

Although the Original land is the birthplace of the Fantasy godheads, they cannot get close to it. Because the Original land is filled with a lot of Chaotic Faiths. Theoretically, the Power of Faith is unstable, the Fantasy godheads will even disappear directly here.

However, Lupit is different. She isn't only immune to this effect, but has even assimilated with the Original land.

As a result, Lupit is like a source of radiation, radiating the Chaotic Faiths of the Original land to Babylon, and her body is also covered with a thick "Shield of Chaos" composed of Chaotic Faiths.

In Babylon, where Faiths constitutes everything, the attributes and attacks of the Godhead will be partially or fully distorted when exposed to the "Shield of Chaos".

But as long as the Power of Faith is rebuilt, the "Shield of Chaos" can be destroyed. This kind of destroy method, which is like avoiding the blacklist detection of the firewall, is really puzzling.

"Faith" itself still has many unsolved mysteries.

There are gods enter then exit Babylon so do they have Faith or not? If Yog can't even enter Babylon so she can't have T0.

 

[Weaver261]

About the entrance to Main Universe, there's a problem with the "same cosmology" here. If by your logical is correct then Yog is as powerful as this:

And if you say she is T0 so she is more powerful than Will of Honkai and Kiana&Mei while being a weapon? Now you need to explain how a weapon can be more powerful than the most powerful characters ever confirmed in the main universe then.

Weapons are just artifacts from ancient times that has the power of gods. Due to these weapons absorbing honkai energy, they somehow awakened personality based on their power and history. Still these aren't not their true selves. Note that Weapons != Godheads. Weapons are just artifacts with their powers. Based on the setting, Ares stated godheads are much more terrifying than Will Of Honkai. Weapons that have the power of godheads is vastly different from godheads being weapons.

About the retcon, that stuff was lost media, you can read this while I was searching for them,there's a button named Partner Stories (Removed) which you can read.

Guns Girl Z Story Interpreter

Read cutscenes from Guns Girl Z in the web browser.

ggz.amaryllisworks.pw

You should quote the part you want to show as I can't find it.

Where the game said Babylon is composed of Yin and Yang? I only see the game said everything in Babylon is made from Faith.

"I have a feeling that if this being is allowed to walk Babylon, the balance of Yin and Yang will be crushed."
- The Mother Kizuna

It still has yin and yang nonetheless

 

[Max20091]

Weapons are just artifacts from ancient times that has the power of gods. Due to these weapons absorbing honkai energy, they somehow awakened personality based on their power and history. Still these aren't not their true selves. Note that Weapons != Godheads. Weapons are just artifacts with their powers. Based on the setting, Ares stated godheads are much more terrifying than Will Of Honkai. Weapons that have the power of godheads is vastly different from godheads being weapons.

Are you again bringing the joke story as truth?
Well, this is for anyone else to check, it's not mine anymore.

It still has yin and yang nonetheless

This statement is equivalent to "Chi energy is not made from Honkai" in Honkai Impact 3, am I correct?
Again, it's depending everyone else in this thread to judge.

You should quote the part you want to show as I can't find it.

For example this one from Lucian.

【sakong】不震惊！卢西恩.密藏 神格觉醒剧情_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

目前唯一觉醒的装备，b站好像还没有这个，把剧情分享给大家把吧！话说标题加个 “ 不震惊！”就有更多人看也不知是个什么原理, 视频播放量 2063、弹幕量 2、点赞数 7、投硬币枚数 3、收藏人数 27、转发人数 2, 视频作者 sakong, 作者简介 修炼中……，相关视频：崩崩全神抽取建议『爱溢之姬』娃娃套核心必抽，鸡！！！！！！九年萌新伤害终于上垓，“彼此的牵绊.绝望中诞生的奇迹”，【崩坏学园2】事到如今才开始营业！？单关2w分 无视机制简单逃课，【崩坏学园2】见过攻速流鼠鼠造饭机吗，「翁法罗斯」“大团圆结局”，【sakong】崩崩偷渡欧洲，活动半价不要怂，崩坏学院2...

www.bilibili.com

The menu look like this:

Spoiler: Old menu before retcon

Now it is this

Btw that's what 99.99% of global players agree on :3 (Also bonus note: In Legacy Storyline with Fuhua and Will of Abyss, Fuhua was shown Hi3 version of her by WOA.)

Unfortunately WoA is claimed by the Writer (or WoH) as a person that will actively lies to achieve what she want (probably that hoyostan page or wiki didn't update the R15). There's a lot of lore dump of unexplained stuffs from the Era 0 to WoH fight.
Here's the lore dump that should be enough to say what about WoA.
And image dump so you can cross reference with the above page (I'm too lazy to paste every single line).

If anyone read this rants, I'm really sorry for being impatient. It's up to you guys to decide what I say is the truth or lies.

Spoiler: Rants about hoyostan and some bonus stuffs

(I'm not sure if what I said is correct, this is because I'm too impatent when writing this, likely I will not be here anymore unless there's another interesting HG2 thread)

You take the "proof" from those guys who never play the game to the end as truth? People can create websites and writes anything as they like. They can say anything as there is nothing "above" them to correct the issues. And then “Tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth”, especially in the current time when AI causing hallucinations everywhere.

That hoyostan page is also rely on the interpreter website so they mostly know what the interpreter gives and rarely from other sources (they are also known to copy my wiki too).

Guns Girl Z Story Interpreter

Read cutscenes from Guns Girl Z in the web browser.

ggz.amaryllisworks.pw

If you ask them where's the imaginary tree in HG2, I'm sure that they either point at the ancient article from 2017 like the one Weaver give, the GDC video in 2019 (that Cai Haoyu guy is the programmer, because that's the Game Developer Conference to talk about technical stuffs for game programmers) or simply can't point out where the tree is in the game at all, yet they claim this "HG2 connected to HI3 through IT" as the only truth. Everyone else saying the otherwise on "mainstream media" will get downvoted to oblivion.

Do they (hoyostan) ever consider HG2 is in "HoYoverse" rather than Honkai (3rd) Cosmology? I think not.

They are also the one who spread all of the "HG2 is connected to HI3 through IT" stuff over the internet, you can search that on Google and their talks (or other people mentioning the hoyostan website) will pop up as the "1st result". It pop up as the 1st result so it must be true, right?
And in almost all reddit posts about the HG2 and IT, I'm sure that there's a person named "MisterSpacemanStuff" commenting in there (he's the owner of hoyostan site, or at least what I'm remember).

(I was a part of that hoyostan group really long time ago, back when they are "nothing" on the internet and I quit because of these HG2-IT nonsenses. Because you (Weaver) mention that website so I say the problem of that site to everyone)
(There's a reason why my wiki doesn't exist on Google, this is because I intend to hide them as they are "not ready" at the moment, and unfortunately this also prioritize hoyostan site over my wiki)
(I work for the previous (Fandoom) wiki back from really long time ago like 2014? and that's my experience with the HG2 wiki writing. Writing wikis solo takes way too much time for a game that have 10 years of contents, especially when most of big event stories just disappear when they expire)
(With the experience of SEO back when I work at Fandoom, I know how the "HG2 is connected to HI3 through IT" stuffs spread over the internet by that 1 Reddit guy, isn't that crazy?)
"Trust, but verify"

(btw I found this vsbattle site while I was investigating how big the HG2-IT issue have spread over the internet)

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. And do any other members who disagree with Weaver261's interpretation wish to write an explanation post as well?

We need a more indepth and elaborate explanation post for all of the relevant points and information, so other staff members can evaluate it.

 

[Weaver261]

Are you again bringing the joke story as truth?
Well, this is for anyone else to check, it's not mine anymore.
This statement is equivalent to "Chi energy is not made from Honkai" in Honkai Impact 3, am I correct?
Again, it's depending everyone else in this thread to judge.
For example this one from Lucian.

Joke story? Joke story or not, fact is still fact. Unless this was proven otherwise or Ares stated "This is just a joke", it's valid. Anyone who can read will understand.
I've given enough scans of showing yin ang yang as fundamental forces.
Changing UI and some kizuna's titles count as rectonning the whole Babylon to be disconnected from the main universe? What's that logic xD

Unfortunately WoA is claimed by the Writer (or WoH) as a person that will actively lies to achieve what she want (probably that hoyostan page or wiki didn't update the R15). There's a lot of lore dump of unexplained stuffs from the Era 0 to WoH fight.
Here's the lore dump that should be enough to say what about WoA.
And image dump so you can cross reference with the above page (I'm too lazy to paste every single line).

I didn't know this so you're correct here. I wanted to link legacy scans but I couldn't find it so I just linked the hoyostan page. Still all of my arguments about canonicity are still valid without this.

It's funny how @Max20091 said Da Wei and Cai Houyu don't know much story lore. Ever since in 2014 when they released HG2 (GGZ), they had this idea of Honkai Universe with multiple game sharing the same cosmology. It's also laughable to hear someone saying old interviews are invalid because it doesn't align with their view of cosmology xD.....Old or not, interviews are still valid, both CEO of Mihoyo consider HG2 as part of Honkai Universe. (Also GDC was in 2021 which is pretty recent) They even said they wanted make thier own Marvel Universe. And not just them, HG2 is written as a worldline similar to Hi3 in Hi3 comics as I showed in my summary which align to CEOs idea. I've said this again and again, Imaginary Tree is not a literal tree. It's a theoretical model of viewing a universe with many worlds. Just because "imaginary tree" isn't there in HG2 doesn't mean this concept didn't exist. HG2 already has Imaginary spaces which are higher dimensions in Imaginary tree.
If we follow the logic of @Max20091 , Honkai energy doesn't exist in Honkai Star Rail. Why? Because that term was never used in the game :3 Now you can see how stupid this sound?

 

[GarrixianXD]

I was told that this topic is being derailed and even the extremely minor details that practically have zero relevance to the thread are being discussed.

@Weaver261 Do you want this thread to be closed so evaluations can be given more easily?

 

[Weaver261]

I was told that this topic is being derailed and even the extremely minor details that practically have zero relevance to the thread are being discussed.

@Weaver261 Do you want this thread to be closed so evaluations can be given more easily?

It'd be nice. I think all of us have given enough informations to evaluate. Please close the thread